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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Roger Waters: Congress Shouldn’t Silence Human Rights Advocates [Palestine-Israel]
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westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Sep 11, 2017 - 11:05am

 black321 wrote:

let's just say too political for me...mostly outside of his concerts but that wont keep me from seeing the show. 
In the past, he used the star (which is also a political symbol) along with crucifix, crescent moon, mercedes benz, mcdonalds logos....he wasnt picking on jews, but religions overall and capitalism/corporatism...which he has clearly explained.  Re. the BSD issue, i dont see it as a jewish/antisemite issue, but opposition to a specific government's actions...that he believes is suppressing the palestinians.  In the past he's been very vocal the US, UK, Russia...so why should israel be excluded? 

 
No, Israel should not be excluded.  In fact, one could argue that the Israeli nation building process/occupation of West Bank, etc. poses the single biggest threat to western rich country security.

It is how an artist like Waters goes about doing it that matters.  For one, what is the end game?  Israel may have been birthed by ethnic-cleansing Palestinian Jewish terrorists but the country is not going away.   Any likely resolution means that Israel retains at least all the territory it had acquired (by force) prior to 1967.

Moreover, this problem gets solved only with the active collaboration of large numbers of Israeli Jews and American Israeli supporters.

Recognizing Israeli sovereignty is the only way forward.  In that respect, Waters is not helping by refusing to play Israel.  
 
I agree strongly with Steven Wilson's attitude towards Israel which he expressed in this 2010 interview before Porcupine Tree was scheduled to play in.... Israel, again:

PORCUPINE TREE IN ISRAEL


Pasted excerpt:
“It’s very hypocritical of me, of course. But, there’s always that risk of cancellation. If the boat thing had happened this week instead of a month ago, who knows? The other guys don’t have personal attachments to Israel, but they are committed to doing the show, and we’re coming,” said Wilson, adding that the band had received numerous emails and appeals for them to cancel their upcoming show in Tel Aviv.

“I can understand the pressure other artists who cancelled must have felt.

We take the appeals seriously, but I’ve had to reconcile that with what I believe, from my experience in England, that the people of a country often differ intensely with what their government does.

“Just as British citizens objected to Tony Blair and the invasion of Iraq, I get a sense that the Israeli people are upset about what’s going on. You forget living outside of a country that the actions of the government are not the actions of the people. Why penalize the people who live in Israel for the actions of their government or their army? It doesn’t achieve anything. It’s a cliché that music rises above it all, and it’s a cliché for a reason – it’s very often true.”



black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 11, 2017 - 6:25am

 westslope wrote:

The Star of David and cash signs apparently caused some offence.  It that symbolism was accidental or not insulting, then somebody please explain why.

Too political?  I am not sure that artists and musicians can ever get too political but they can mouth off on stuff they do not know or understand and come across as naive, gullible, populist or simply misleading.

One of my favourite novelists is a Marxist in a context where that usually meant Neo-Marxist whose analysis and policy prescriptions I oppose and whose track record is absolutely abysmal.  Did not stop me from enjoying his work or social insights.

Hope the concert went well.  None of this would stop me from seeing Roger Waters.  

 
let's just say too political for me...mostly outside of his concerts but that wont keep me from seeing the show. 
In the past, he used the star (which is also a political symbol) along with crucifix, crescent moon, mercedes benz, mcdonalds logos....he wasnt picking on jews, but religions overall and capitalism/corporatism...which he has clearly explained.  Re. the BSD issue, i dont see it as a jewish/antisemite issue, but opposition to a specific government's actions...that he believes is suppressing the palestinians.  In the past he's been very vocal the US, UK, Russia...so why should israel be excluded? 
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 9, 2017 - 10:07am

 westslope wrote:

The Star of David and cash signs apparently caused some offence.  It that symbolism was accidental or not insulting, then somebody please explain why.

Too political?  I am not sure that artists and musicians can ever get too political but they can mouth on stuff they do not know or understand and come across as naive, gullible, populist or simply misleading.

One of my favourite novelists is a Marxist in a context where that usually meant Neo-Marxist whose analysis and policy prescriptions I oppose and whose track record is absolutely abysmal.  Did not stop me from enjoying his work or social insights.

Hope the concert went well.  None of this would stop me from seeing Roger Waters.  

 





There is no such thing as being too political in the context of an individual expressing free speech. However as an artist who enjoys getting paid for creating art by means of the public purchasing concert tickets and buying their music, you sure can be if your public tires of hearing politics instead of music and your revenue stream suffers because of it. Not a judgment, just a factual possibility that could have an adverse effect on the artist wallet. Now, it may not matter to them if they are so wealthy they do not care or if they actually care about the issue more than their bank account so I suppose whether an artist is too political or not depends on their level of commitment to the cause or their philosophical outlook on whether art should be created for art's sake or to make money. So in essence whether an artist is too political or not is totally up to the artist and their fans.


westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Sep 9, 2017 - 9:18am

 black321 wrote:

I think Reg is a bit too political of late...but then again, the issue is getting publicity.  (i never saw anything offensive about any of the symbols used in the shows, and he certainly wasnt just picking on jews).

Regardless, i think his last few tours have been exceptional and am looking forward to next Friday. 

 
The Star of David and cash signs apparently caused some offence.  It that symbolism was accidental or not insulting, then somebody please explain why.

Too political?  I am not sure that artists and musicians can ever get too political but they can mouth off on stuff they do not know or understand and come across as naive, gullible, populist or simply misleading.

One of my favourite novelists is a Marxist in a context where that usually meant Neo-Marxist whose analysis and policy prescriptions I oppose and whose track record is absolutely abysmal.  Did not stop me from enjoying his work or social insights.

Hope the concert went well.  None of this would stop me from seeing Roger Waters.  


black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 8, 2017 - 1:47pm

 westslope wrote:


You know, I wish Waters was that mercantile but I strongly suspect that he is genuine in his outlook and critique.  

Unfortunately Waters has this juvenile, naive attitude about "the man" and rich capitalist corporations and has employed very poorly chosen symbolism on occasion that recalls anti-Jewish bias once common in Europe and elsewhere.

In my opinion, Waters should play Israel.  Boycotting Israel artists and intellectuals and refusing to perform live in Israel will have little or no impact on the on-going Israel nation-building process and the 'rights' of Palestinians.  

 
I think Reg is a bit too political of late...but then again, the issue is getting publicity.  (i never saw anything offensive about any of the symbols used in the shows, and he certainly wasnt just picking on jews).

Regardless, i think his last few tours have been exceptional and am looking forward to next Friday. 
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Sep 8, 2017 - 12:57pm

 black321 wrote:
Nice...coverage in the NYT right ahead of next week's concerts.  Will be interesting to see what the pre-show scene is like. 

 

You know, I wish Waters was that mercantile but I strongly suspect that he is genuine in his outlook and critique.  

Unfortunately Waters has this juvenile, naive attitude about "the man" and rich capitalist corporations and has employed very poorly chosen symbolism on occasion that recalls anti-Jewish bias once common in Europe and elsewhere.

In my opinion, Waters should play Israel.  Boycotting Israel artists and intellectuals and refusing to perform live in Israel will have little or no impact on the on-going Israel nation-building process and the 'rights' of Palestinians.  
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 7, 2017 - 3:06pm

Nice...coverage in the NYT right ahead of next week's concerts.  Will be interesting to see what the pre-show scene is like. 


westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Sep 7, 2017 - 2:58pm


Roger Waters: Congress Shouldn’t Silence Human Rights Advocates