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rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 29, 2024 - 6:03am

 kurtster wrote:
You are deliberately ignoring the real reason stores are closing.  Crime / unabated and unprosecuted theft.  There are intentionally no deterrents anymore.  Period.  End Of Story.

Kurt, you need to step away from the anger machines that provide your news and add a hint of skepticism to the issues you're addressing. 

Food access is not a crime-ridden city problem.  It's worst in RED states.   It's not Illinois, New York, and California where food deserts are an issue, it's Texas and Florida (ranked #1 and #2 in total population).

Sure, someone walking into a Walgreens and walking out with whatever they like is a problem, but it's not THE problem for everything.  Conservative media has you conditioned, and you don't have a clue how stupid you sound.

Go learn something about low-income and low-access food locations (ie deserts) in the US.  The data is slightly dated, but if you use the breadcrumbs at the top of the page to look around, you'll see things are still much worse in locations that voted for Trump in 2016/2020 than they are in "lib controlled cities".  
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 9:31pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
Did your liquor store run the supermarket out of business, or did it step in to fill a void? If your liquor store had been shut down—for the residents' own good, of course—would that have brought the supermarket back? If a supermarket isn't meeting the needs of its customers it won't stay in business. If a Dollar General isn't meeting the needs of its customers it won't stay in business. Those customers had needs that weren't being met. Someone stepped in to meet them. Good on them. Preventing them from meeting those needs does not mean that they will suddenly start buying organic arugula from Whole Foods, it means the food desert will get even drier.
 
You are deliberately ignoring the real reason stores are closing.  Crime / unabated and unprosecuted theft.  There are intentionally no deterrents anymore.  Period.  End Of Story.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 9:23pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
So the complaint is that people choose unhealthy options rather than buying healthy food. I know when I lived in Oakland, the local supermarket that had been around for 50 years closed up. The population that had been squarely in the postwar middle class had slid into being mostly below the poverty line. Any value shopper will get the Fuji apples and not Honeycrisp, flank steak and not ribeye, whole chicken and not boneless skinless breasts. Generics and not name brands. Might all be the same healthwise, but the store needs to sell ribeyes to stay in business. So they shut down and the next closest store was a Safeway 30 blocks away. So instead of going there, people had to come shop at the liquor store I worked at. Dinty Moore stew, hotdogs and bacon. We had eggs and milk but no produce, no fresh or frozen meat. Head cheese! That store closed and we started getting ALL the food stamps. Nobody chose that diet.

Did your liquor store run the supermarket out of business, or did it step in to fill a void? If your liquor store had been shut down—for the residents' own good, of course—would that have brought the supermarket back?

If a supermarket isn't meeting the needs of its customers it won't stay in business. If a Dollar General isn't meeting the needs of its customers it won't stay in business.

Those customers had needs that weren't being met. Someone stepped in to meet them. Good on them. Preventing them from meeting those needs does not mean that they will suddenly start buying organic arugula from Whole Foods, it means the food desert will get even drier.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 7:08pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
 So the complaint is that people choose unhealthy options rather than buying healthy food. I know when I lived in Oakland, the local supermarket that had been around for 50 years closed up. The population that had been squarely in the postwar middle class had slid into being mostly below the poverty line. Any value shopper will get the Fuji apples and not Honeycrisp, flank steak and not ribeye, whole chicken and not boneless skinless breasts. Generics and not name brands. Might all be the same healthwise, but the store needs to sell ribeyes to stay in business. So they shut down and the next closest store was a Safeway 30 blocks away.

So instead of going there, people had to come shop at the liquor store I worked at. Dinty Moore stew, hotdogs and bacon. We had eggs and milk but no produce, no fresh or frozen meat. Head cheese! That store closed and we started getting ALL the food stamps. Nobody chose that diet.
 
This is the scenario that I am talking about.  Watched it play out here in Cleveburg and also in Akron.  There are no liquor stores in Ohio.  Here it was little corner stores in neighborhoods that were generally run by 1st generation immigrants and predominantly Arabs in the black neighborhoods.  This caused a whole new set of tensions and distrust.  The store owners gradually became accused of predatory pricing, robberies came next, some stores got torched and eventually these options gave up as well.

It took a whole lot of arm twisting of the grocery chains, in the form of tax abatements, assurances of beefed up policing and other giveaways to get these stores to return.  Slowly over about 10 years it worked.  We are now repeating the same policies that let these neighborhoods fall apart with rising crime and the process is repeating itself.  This time it is different as shoplifting is now no longer considered a crime worth prosecuting because (the excuse is) it is racist to go after the criminals.  Look at San Fran as ground zero this time around and it's not just grocery stores.  It is drug stores and department stores. This is more than about food deserts.  They are becoming retail deserts.

This is just my opinion based upon observation.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 2:22pm

 Proclivities wrote:

There are a number of definitions of "food deserts" depending on who you ask.  Some can be areas of large cities which may have crime among the causes which grocery stores don't stick around, but I think what SD was getting at was the Dollar Stores, which seem to pop up in food deserts - often in rural areas.  For example, in many parts of NC (and much of the South in general), Dollar Stores show up as free-standing structures, or as part of small strip malls.  Grocery chains like Kroger, Harris-Teeter, Food Lion, etc., apparently don't see it as worthwhile to open in many of those areas, so the residents either have to drive 10 miles or more to get to a grocery store, or even a Target or Wal-Mart.  So the Dollar Stores - or fast food places -  essentially become the only source of food for those folks - especially if they have limited access to transportation.


So the complaint is that people choose unhealthy options rather than buying healthy food. I know when I lived in Oakland, the local supermarket that had been around for 50 years closed up. The population that had been squarely in the postwar middle class had slid into being mostly below the poverty line. Any value shopper will get the Fuji apples and not Honeycrisp, flank steak and not ribeye, whole chicken and not boneless skinless breasts. Generics and not name brands. Might all be the same healthwise, but the store needs to sell ribeyes to stay in business. So they shut down and the next closest store was a Safeway 30 blocks away. So instead of going there, people had to come shop at the liquor store I worked at. Dinty Moore stew, hotdogs and bacon. We had eggs and milk but no produce, no fresh or frozen meat. Head cheese! That store closed and we started getting ALL the food stamps. Nobody chose that diet.
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 2:00pm

 kurtster wrote:

I could go deeper and explain the concept as I understand it, but it is S_D who brought up the term so maybe he should define it first.

I can explain it on the basis of being one of the few here who have recently actually lived in an impoverished big old rust belt big city.  Cleveland is always in the top two as the poorest big cities in the US.

There are a number of definitions of "food deserts" depending on who you ask.  Some can be areas of large cities which may have crime among the causes which grocery stores don't stick around, but I think what SD was getting at was the Dollar Stores, which seem to pop up in food deserts - often in rural areas.  For example, in many parts of NC (and much of the South in general), Dollar Stores show up as free-standing structures, or as part of small strip malls.  Grocery chains like Kroger, Harris-Teeter, Food Lion, etc., apparently don't see it as worthwhile to open in many of those areas, so the residents either have to drive 10 miles or more to get to a grocery store, or even a Target or Wal-Mart.  So the Dollar Stores - or fast food places -  essentially become the only source of food for those folks - especially if they have limited access to transportation.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 1:25pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

This goes back to the late 80's early 90's.  Think Rudy Giuliani. I guess that you're too young to  remember.
Mostly I squinted when you said we recently recovered from a food desert. I sort of lost the thread after that. Here's a Reddit discussion that hits a lot of the points of what a food desert is, whether they exist, and whether it's a demand issue or a supply issue. The "demand" side has a lot of supporters there but anyway it's a good read even if a lot of the points made tend to sound pretty Trumpian to me.
 
I could go deeper and explain the concept as I understand it, but it is S_D who brought up the term so maybe he should define it first.

I can explain it on the basis of being one of the few here who have recently actually lived in an impoverished big old rust belt big city.  Cleveland is always in the top two as the poorest big cities in the US.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 11:58am

 kurtster wrote:

This goes back to the late 80's early 90's.  Think Rudy Giuliani.

I guess that you're too young to  remember.


Mostly I squinted when you said we recently recovered from a food desert. I sort of lost the thread after that.

Here's a Reddit discussion that hits a lot of the points of what a food desert is, whether they exist, and whether it's a demand issue or a supply issue. The "demand" side has a lot of supporters there but anyway it's a good read even if a lot of the points made tend to sound pretty Trumpian to me.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 11:41am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
Food deserts ?  You mean like we just recently recovered from ?  They are coming back for the same reason they happened before.  Crime. Rampant crime brought to you by the same people who enabled it the last time around, using the same soft on crime policies they are encouraging today. So yeah, thanks, Joe and all your progressive buddies in your party.  It is always someone else's fault.  Defund the police and no cash bail are a republican thing, right ?
*squint* ?
 
This goes back to the late 80's early 90's.  Think Rudy Giuliani.

I guess that you're too young to  remember.
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 9:39am

 kurtster wrote:


Food deserts ?  You mean like we just recently recovered from ? 

They are coming back for the same reason they happened before.  Crime.

Rampant crime brought to you by the same people who enabled it the last time around, using the same soft on crime policies they are encouraging today.

So yeah, thanks, Joe and all your progressive buddies in your party. 

It is always someone else's fault.  Defund the police and no cash bail are a republican thing, right ?

OK, class. Today we’re going to talk about skew lines, and how they don’t intersect. Can anyone think of two things that have nothing to do with each other?


Beaker

Beaker Avatar

Location: Your safe space


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 9:32am

 Red_Dragon wrote:



  :thumbsup:
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 9:24am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


*squint* ?


There's a whole meme about it.


ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 8:52am

 kurtster wrote:


Food deserts ?  You mean like we just recently recovered from ? 

They are coming back for the same reason they happened before.  Crime.

Rampant crime brought to you by the same people who enabled it the last time around, using the same soft on crime policies they are encouraging today.

So yeah, thanks, Joe and all your progressive buddies in your party. 

It is always someone else's fault.  Defund the police and no cash bail are a republican thing, right ?


*squint* ?
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 6:25am

 Lazy8 wrote:

Yeah, shame on them for selling things poor people can afford! Shame on them for employing people selling those goods! If they had fewer choices of what to buy they'd be infinitely better off. It's not like they know what's in their own best interest.

Let them eat Target.


I agree, they serve a niche,
but they do have a reputation for poor and unsafe work environments,
as for their profits, margins are a bit higher than you might expect...a few percent higher than a typical grocer,
so I would argue they improve working conditions, rather than lower prices
*boy, this has turned into an unnecessary thread jack 


Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 6:15am

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 5:49am

 Steely_D wrote:
Those blights on our nation need to be closed, period. They’re leeches, further ruining the lives of those struggling with food deserts (big corporations abandon the poor) and low employment (big corporations abandon the poor). None of this is news, nor is it new. 
 

Food deserts ?  You mean like we just recently recovered from ? 

They are coming back for the same reason they happened before.  Crime.

Rampant crime brought to you by the same people who enabled it the last time around, using the same soft on crime policies they are encouraging today.

So yeah, thanks, Joe and all your progressive buddies in your party. 

It is always someone else's fault.  Defund the police and no cash bail are a republican thing, right ?
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 5:37am

 Lazy8 wrote:

Yeah, shame on them for selling things poor people can afford! Shame on them for employing people selling those goods! If they had fewer choices of what to buy they'd be infinitely better off. It's not like they know what's in their own best interest.

We'll chalk that up to just not knowing any better...


Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 28, 2024 - 3:10am

 Lazy8 wrote:

Yeah, shame on them for selling things poor people can afford! Shame on them for employing people selling those goods! If they had fewer choices of what to buy they'd be infinitely better off. It's not like they know what's in their own best interest.

Let them eat Target.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/19...

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 27, 2024 - 10:55pm

 Steely_D wrote:
Those blights on our nation need to be closed, period. They’re leeches, further ruining the lives of those struggling with food deserts (big corporations abandon the poor) and low employment (big corporations abandon the poor). None of this is news, nor is it new.

Yeah, shame on them for selling things poor people can afford! Shame on them for employing people selling those goods! If they had fewer choices of what to buy they'd be infinitely better off. It's not like they know what's in their own best interest.

Let them eat Target.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 27, 2024 - 3:18pm

 Steely_D wrote:


Those blights on our nation need to be closed, period. They’re leeches, further ruining the lives of those struggling with food deserts (big corporations abandon the poor) and low employment (big corporations abandon the poor). None of this is news, nor is it new. 

Blame Joe? Instead you should be blaming a philosophy that prevents young pregnant women from having an abortion,
that refuses to properly fund public schools and sucks the money to “Christian” (code for white) schools,
refuses to give poor people a tax break while providing them to those same big corporations or millionaires who have forgotten what philanthropy looks like,
that runs in cahoots with petroleum peddlers while the environment suffers,
and that does everything it can to prevent the education of its populace and shout down the experts that get in their way.

Is that Joe? That would be a very very naive take on the matter.


It was a tongue in cheek post, but perhaps the tongue slipped out and started making flippy floppy noises...
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