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kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 7:42pm

 hippiechick wrote:
Kurt, you yourself said that you aren't even a practicing Christian, so why the interest? Religion serves the purpose of grouping one kind of people against another and creates the kind of problems we have today, with Muslim extremists creating terror, and Jewish settlers closing off their country. And don't even get me started on the Catholic Church and the role it has played in history.

You seem to have trouble recognizing the difference between a public display of religion, such as a cross for veterans (not all veterans are Christian and a cross is not representative) and a cemetery with marked graves, even though this has been explained over and over to you.

So why don't you let it go already? Your argument doesn't even make sense.
 
And you have said you are not a practicing Jew.  Yet you rail about how miserable Christmas makes you feel.

I'll let Winter decide if my reply makes any sense to him.  My argument is much broader than just crosses.

I have no dog in this hunt persay. 

hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 7:32pm

Kurt, you yourself said that you aren't even a practicing Christian, so why the interest? Religion serves the purpose of grouping one kind of people against another and creates the kind of problems we have today, with Muslim extremists creating terror, and Jewish settlers closing off their country. And don't even get me started on the Catholic Church and the role it has played in history.

You seem to have trouble recognizing the difference between a public display of religion, such as a cross for veterans (not all veterans are Christian and a cross is not representative) and a cemetery with marked graves, even though this has been explained over and over to you.

So why don't you let it go already? Your argument doesn't even make sense.

kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 7:19pm

 winter wrote:

I get that you're upset about what you see as the diminished public role of a cherished holiday, and the attacks on Christians and Christianity. Fair enough. I'm angry that in a nation that still struggles with widespread and institutionalized homophobia and xenophobia more people would vote for a gay or Muslim President than an atheist President - that they think as little of letting their kids marry atheists as previous generations did of letting them marry out of their race.

What I think you're missing is that if we make room for even an implied government endorsement of any one religion, we have to endorse them all equally. There's no playing favorites, no special reverence based on historical precedent or predominance, no decisions about what's a real religion and what's just some kooky cult. If we put up a Nativity scene on city property, there'd better be equally prominent displays for every other flavor of faith and faithlessness or it's just inconsistent and unjust. Bust out the menorahs, light up the Kwanzaa displays, and be sure Ashura gets its due. There'd better be Wiccan displays for Samhain and the solstices when they come around, to say nothing of a dignified commemoration of Ramadan and an appropriate recognition of non-theist values. There are religious festivals of some kind virtually every day of the year. Wait a minute - what about the Jehovah's Witnesses who don't think any of these should be celebrated?  Do their rights, their votes, their tax dollars count any less than those differently-minded? Should they have to endure a slight to their beliefs from the government that claims to represent them, just because their beliefs are less popular or less historically entwined?

Of course not. That's why we have the strong high wall between church and state. Start where you will and walk where you choose, but when you stand before the law you're on the same ground as paupers, prelates, and politicians. Justice is the blind woman holding the scales, and if she peeks out or puts a thumb on for one group then she's been bought and paid for by the same coin of popular consensus that once tolerated slavery, racism, genocide, and religious persecution.

Yes, some of our founding documents reference God. They also reference slavery and make no allowance for women's suffrage. It hardly seems consistent to enshrine some of their views and reject others - surely these long-held traditions, lasting more than a couple of years and practiced by more than 51% of the population, ought still be the custom of the country, if not the law of the land? Or perhaps we have evolved as a people, reaching newer and better moral understandings, and our customs and laws ought to reflect our evolving enlightenment rather than the codified mistakes of our past? I don't think we should toss out every tradition, but a tradition that sets some beliefs and believers above others seems better broken than observed.

Yes, many of our Founding Fathers were religious. They were also mostly white men, mostly right-handed, and mostly of English descent. A lot of them wore wigs. Why should we refer to ourselves as "a Christian nation" and not "a white nation of right-handed Anglophile wig-wearers"? What gives their faith primacy instead of any other characteristic? Why revere their faith and wrap it around the roots of our collective heritage when there are a handy dozen other characteristics they shared?

I doubt very much that Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Washington and the rest wanted us to hold them in such reverence as to accord their faith some special virtue apart from those inherent. They didn't fight so we could have the right to worship the same God they did. They didn't sacrifice so we could follow them like fops measuring the Emperor's hemlines. They didn't struggle so that two hundred years later we'd have come no further than this. I think they'd be disappointed to see that we thought there was any debate over whether the government should prefer Christianity over other forms of belief. I think they'd laugh bitterly to see such reverence for the forms of their day and so little regard for the ideas that shaped them.

You've mentioned the Arlington example several times. I've pointed out the distinction to you, and you've yet to address it with any counterargument more persuasive than simple insistence and repetition. Believe what you will, but calling that consistency betrays a sadly ironic misunderstanding of the concept.

But just so we're clear - the soldiers at Arlington (or their survivors) chose the symbols that mark their graves. They weren't assigned by the administrators at Arlington, and they weren't endorsed by Congressional committee or the Joint Chiefs of Staff. These were symbols meaningful to the men and women lying at long-deserved rest under them, and as Scott pointed out there are a variety of such symbols used at Arlington. The government endorses none of them and permits them all. It's a classic example of separation of church and state, one of the freedoms those brave men and women sacrificed so much to protect.

It's not that religious symbols are forbidden on government property. It's that having City Hall display a Nativity scene, or having Congress pause for prayer at the start of each session, or being required to make some show of faith or piety to hold office are all forms of government endorsement of particular forms of belief. Allowing every soldier, sailor, and serviceperson at Arlington to choose the symbol to mark their last resting place is the exact opposite of that.

Consistency would be recognizing that each form of belief has an equal standing in our society and under our laws. Consistency would be admitting all the faithful and faithless alike to participate as equals without prejudice. Consistency would be admitting no precedence to any form of belief.

I leave it to you to decide what sticking to the same talking points in defiance of fact, logic, and compassion should be called.
  
 

It's not so much that the notion that Christianity and Christmas are being diminished in importance, more it's the method in which it is being accomplished that I am raising my concerns about.  We are definitely at a crossroads, religiously speaking, in this country.  I tried to do some research before answering and did, but everything is PDF, so I can only link and paraphrase.  I made some interesting discoveries.

There is no accurate way to view the religious makeup of the US from the beginning to the present, in the form of a graph, document or any kind of chart.  The US Census quit taking religious information over 50 years ago and the info obtained was not meaningful enough to make accurate conclusions.  The only thing that can be quantified with any kind of meaning is by church membership, that is those formally attached and attending a church.  There is no way to trend simple belief in this country until the last half of the 20th Century.

Church membership was very low in the country until about 1900 when it finally hit the 50% mark.  It seems to have peaked at the end of the 20th Century. Individuals declaring themselves "Christian" are presently about 75 to 80%.  That is an easily documentable number.  It is also a significant number as a constituency.  Christianity provides to some degree the moral compass of this constituency so therefore; social policies embraced by this constituency tend to be reflected in laws pursued by this "faction".  I'm not saying that it is right or wrong, just that it is.  It affects laws on social behaviour and is just as much a factor as say social behaviour laws promoted by environmentalists.  Some Christians are environmentalists and vice versa.  And sometimes there is an intersection of agendas and/or values.

There now seems to be a movement underway to make any values that are Christian to be dismissed as harmful to the good of the country and therefore less worthy of consideration as values put forth by environmentalists to keep with the comparison I am using.  Now we are at a point in this country where the values held (loosely, but legitimately) by 75% are considered to be invalid because they have a basis in religion even though they are consistent and congruent with the Constitution.  There is one national religious holiday in this country and it is Christmas.  It serves this faction of 75% of the population, yet it is a holiday shared by all as a national day off whether one believes or not.  The holiday is not officially constructed for only those who believe or adhere to it get the day off.  Interestingly enough there is only one national holiday devoted to an individual person, MLK. The rest of the holidays are for events or a group of people, former Presidents and Veterans.

We have a situation were the values of 75% of the population are systematically being thrown under the bus by 25% of the population for a whole host of reasons.  (This is broad brushed, but is there another way to present this argument ?)   And many of this 25% minority sees the Constitution as written to be a major obstacle to dismantling the status quo those seek to unseat or undo.  Fortunately, the Constitution protects religions as well as restricts them.  The Constitution was designed to manage and prevent factions from gaining an undo advantage over other factions, as anyone who has read the Federalist Papers is aware of.  It was also designed to prevent the tyranny of the few as well.  By having Christmas declared a National Holiday, has that meant that Christianity has an undo advantage over all others ?  Or was it a rational decision made based upon the fact that since so many observed it, that it may as well be given to all to prevent the feeling or position of legal religious discrimination ?  A cross that stood in the desert in California for the better part of a century honoring our fallen veterans was ordered to be removed.  If there, why not everywhere else including national cemeteries as they represent the same meaning.  There are easily many more similar examples if one wants to spend the time finding them.  These acts to me are a result of religious intolerance of the minority.  

I agree that many who proclaim themselves to be Christians are causing problems by proselytizing and trying to enter extremist interpretations into law of the land, and what is going on is a backlash to that end. Newly organized factions are trying to assert rights for themselves as an entitled faction regardless of legitimacy or legal standing.  They are trying to create a legal standing and are opposed by others who presently have a legal standing.  We are evolving.  Women were not originally considered citizens, nor were they allowed to vote.  Their present standing took almost two hundred years to achieve.  The impatience of these new groups or factions is propelling the attacks of the long standing factions.  Legal standing of these factions may come to be but that does not guarantee public acceptance.  That comes with the passage of time and the establishment of a consensus of acceptance.  Those seeking the to end the Christian dominance of this country are taking on 75% of the population and seeking an immediate as opposed to a gradual end.

What those seeking to unseat Christianity may be unaware of is that it is estimated that the majority ethnic group in this country will be Hispanic or Latino by 2050 and they are almost all Christian and mostly Catholic and much more strongly Christian than the shrinking white majority.  There could be an unanticipated backlash to the actions of today down the road.  Be careful what you wish for, because today's reality will be totally different in 40 years.

I may not have addressed all of your concerns, but this is how I am trying to explain my position that this is undeniably a Christian nation and as it looks come 2050 will still be, unless something very radical happens.

Here are the links to the 2 PDFs I mentioned in the beginning.  Of particular interest to me was the US Census bureau forms using the term "Christian" name and using the distinction of types of slave ownership including "corporate".

The other was for establishing religious trends.

We have come a long way from the beginning, it didn't happen overnight.  The pursuit of happiness was originally proffered as the pursuit of property.  I have learned in my short life that change that happens over a long time is lasting, while change that happens "overnight" or change for the sake of change is just as short lived and causes more problems than it solves.



The following famous Declaration written largely by Jefferson:

We hold these truths to be self-evident,
That all men are created equal,
That they are endowed by their Creator
with certain unalienable Rights,
That among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.-
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,
Deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

In 1772, four years before the Declaration was signed, Samuel Adams wrote a short piece entitled "Rights of the Colonists as Men".  His words included the following:

Among the natural rights of the Colonists are these:
First, a right to life; Secondly, to liberty; Thirdly, to property;
together with the right to support and defend them
in the best manner they can.  These are evident branches of,
rather than deductions from, the duty of self-preservation,
commonly called the first law of nature.  All men have a right
to remain in a state of nature as long as they please;
and in case of intolerable oppression, civil or religious,
to leave the society they belong to, and enter into another.
When men enter into society, it is by voluntary consent....
Every natural right not expressly given up, or, from the
nature of a social compact, necessarily ceded, remains.
All positive and civil laws should conform, as far as possible,
to the law of natural reason and equity.  As neither reason requires
nor religion permits the contrary, every man living in or out of
a state of civil society has a right peaceably and quietly
to worship God according to the dictates of his conscience.

In case this excerpt is not sufficiently explicit concerning the origin of the rights so mentioned, further words from this same piece by Samuel Adams will make the point more clearly:

Just and true liberty, equal and impartial liberty,
in matters spiritual and temporal, is a thing that all men
are clearly entitled to by the eternal and immutable
laws of God and nature, as well as by the law of nations
and all well-grounded municipal laws,
which must have their foundation in the former...
The natural liberty of man is to be free from any
superior power on earth, and not to be under the will
or legislative authority of man,
but only to have the law of nature for his rule.<1><2>


Peace,    {#Meditate}




oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 8:39am

 cc_rider wrote:

That's one of the nicest things anyone's ever said about me.

So, you in?
 
from the get go...

cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 8:37am

 oldviolin wrote:
renegade...
 
That's one of the nicest things anyone's ever said about me.

So, you in?

cc_rider

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Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 8:37am

 islander wrote:

Yeah, but we don't shut down. We are 24x7 and we do it with a pretty small staff. So letting people take time without pay has a pretty big impact in shift coverage and general morale management.

 
Oh, agreed. All vacation policies have to be suitable for the particular environment. Shift work and emergency/social services, among others, obviously have manpower requirements. Folks can't just call in willy-nilly and say 'I'm not workin' today, take it outta my check'. I was just thinking of general office oriented work, 9-to-5 type places. Like where I'm at. Nobody is gonna die if the latest gizmo is released for tooling a day or a week late. Regardless of what the client says...

oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 8:36am

 cc_rider wrote:

Paid Time Off? That's a good deal. Time Off Without Pay? Not so much. But if you work on, say, Good Friday, taking off Yom Kippur shouldn't be an issue. People need to be ALLOWED to take time off for religious holidays (the word itself comes from 'holy days', right?), but not necessarily paid for those days. If that was the case, I'd open a diocese of the Pastafarians and make every Friday and Monday a High Holy Day.

Actually not such a bad idea...
 

renegade...
cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 8:33am

 hippiechick wrote:
I have always had to take PTO for the Jewish holidays wherever I worked.
 
Paid Time Off? That's a good deal. Time Off Without Pay? Not so much. But if you work on, say, Good Friday, taking off Yom Kippur shouldn't be an issue. People need to be ALLOWED to take time off for religious holidays (the word itself comes from 'holy days', right?), but not necessarily paid for those days. If that was the case, I'd open a diocese of the Pastafarians and make every Friday and Monday a High Holy Day.

Actually not such a bad idea...

islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 8:25am

 cc_rider wrote:

Some places that have fixed shutdown times, like factories, allow you to either take vacation during those days, or take time off without pay. Most folks think that's fair.
 
Yeah, but we don't shut down. We are 24x7 and we do it with a pretty small staff. So letting people take time without pay has a pretty big impact in shift coverage and general morale management.
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 8:16am

 cc_rider wrote:

Some places that have fixed shutdown times, like factories, allow you to either take vacation during those days, or take time off without pay. Most folks think that's fair.
 
I have always had to take PTO for the Jewish holidays wherever I worked.

cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 8:15am

 islander wrote:

I tried that here. But everyone wanted Christmas and Thanksgiving, and took big blocks around that time to extend it. Then when summer came they had very little vacation and were grumpy with me because of it.  So I went back to setting the standard 8 and making them use their PTO for any other days they want.

 
Some places that have fixed shutdown times, like factories, allow you to either take vacation during those days, or take time off without pay. Most folks think that's fair.

cc_rider

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Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 8:12am

 mzpro5 wrote:
My brother is an electrician at a Ford facility and he slept at the plant during shutdowns because he worked so much it wasn't worth coming home.
 
Yep. I was a manufacturing engineer at a factory that made electric motors (5 Hp to 1000 Hp), and we worked lots of late hours during shutdowns. In some ways it was kind of nice though, because the place was quiet for once.

islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 8:12am

 winter wrote:

If it was me, I'd set up something like this: everyone gets ten paid holidays a year. Pick whatever ten you like based on your own beliefs and values.
 
I tried that here. But everyone wanted Christmas and Thanksgiving, and took big blocks around that time to extend it. Then when summer came they had very little vacation and were grumpy with me because of it.  So I went back to setting the standard 8 and making them use their PTO for any other days they want.
mzpro5

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Location: Budda'spet, Hungry
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 7:46am

 cc_rider wrote:

Hospitals are a good place for policies like that, because they're open 24/7 and have all manner of shifts and schedules. Regular 9-to-5s often have different requirements. Many manufacturing plants have a week of shutdown in the winter and summer, corresponding to July 4th and Christmas/New Years. The downtime is needed to perform maintenance and repairs: the line workers go on vacation, but the maintenance staff and engineers are slam-busy through those weeks.
 
My brother is an electrician at a Ford facility and he slept at the plant during shutdowns because he worked so much it wasn't worth coming home.

cc_rider

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Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 7:44am

 mzpro5 wrote:

I used to work in a hospital that did that.  No vacation days, no holidays, no sick days just PTO's or Paid Time Off days.  I think we got 15/year at initial employment.
 
Hospitals are a good place for policies like that, because they're open 24/7 and have all manner of shifts and schedules. Regular 9-to-5s often have different requirements. Many manufacturing plants have a week of shutdown in the winter and summer, corresponding to July 4th and Christmas/New Years. The downtime is needed to perform maintenance and repairs: the line workers go on vacation, but the maintenance staff and engineers are slam-busy through those weeks.

mzpro5

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Location: Budda'spet, Hungry
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 7:35am

 winter wrote:

If it was me, I'd set up something like this: everyone gets ten paid holidays a year. Pick whatever ten you like based on your own beliefs and values.
 
I used to work in a hospital that did that.  No vacation days, no holidays, no sick days just PTO's or Paid Time Off days.  I think we got 15/year at initial employment.

winter

winter Avatar

Location: in exile, as always
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 7:33am

 buzz wrote:
Why is there no movement among non-Christians to eliminate the federal holiday we celebrate on December 25? 

 
If it was me, I'd set up something like this: everyone gets ten paid holidays a year. Pick whatever ten you like based on your own beliefs and values.

beamends

beamends Avatar



Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 6:09am

 buzz wrote:
Why is there no movement among non-Christians to eliminate the federal holiday we celebrate on December 25? 

 
Not making a point as such, just making a wry observation. Say 20 years ago, apart from one or two of the more eccentric corner shops, nothing at all was open on Christmas day. These days, a shop being open (usually food/convenience) is not remarkable, at least in more urban areas. As a Muslim friend observed about his brother, who managed a 24hr shop, "He's a bit peed off. The owners noted that two or three staff were taking Muslim holidays during the year, so presumably they would have no objection to working on Christmas day". And now they do.

hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 5:17am

 mzpro5 wrote:

I'm an agnostic but I'll take a holiday whenever I can get it.  {#Mrgreen}

 
When I was a kid I lived in a neighborhood that was mostly Jewish. But in elementary school I remember our classes going caroling and singing about some guy named Jesus, who was born in Bethlehem, who was the lord of lords, and I swear, I didn't even know who he was!

mzpro5

mzpro5 Avatar

Location: Budda'spet, Hungry
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2010 - 5:13am

 buzz wrote:
Why is there no movement among non-Christians to eliminate the federal holiday we celebrate on December 25? 

 
I'm an agnostic but I'll take a holiday whenever I can get it.  {#Mrgreen}
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