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mzpro5

mzpro5 Avatar

Location: Budda'spet, Hungry
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 9, 2010 - 5:18am

 kurtster wrote:

At one time, Christmas was the most important Holiday in December to most Americans, more than 51% at least.  That was the inherited traditions that were kept for more than a couple of years.  Now we have a recently invented Holiday such as Kwanza added to this "Season".

And just what is Chritianity anyway, besides a belief in Christ as their Saviour ?  There are so many different versions of Christianity.  No one particular version is supported over another, nor has any ever.  The idea that one version should be held superior as a State Religion over another version such as existed in England as well as the most of the rest of Europe was the religious reason for coming to America.  European Monarch's held their throne based upon divine proclamation and thusly enforced their version as the kingdom's official religion.  Spanish Inquisition anybody ?   Colonies did have their official versions until the Constitution was ratified.  Maryland's for example was Catholic.  While there are many other religions in the world and were at the time of the colonization and construction of this country, Christianity was the driving force.  The Constitution while not specific, was designed primarily to prevent an official specific version of Christianity from being adopted as the National Religion.  The Constitution's openendedness has also made this country safe from any version of any religion from being made the official religion.

This country was founded with a universal belief in God as God is mentioned in our founding documents.  These are our roots, there is no denying.  No one was required to believe in God to be here after the Constitution was ratified.  But this country was founded with a belief in a religious entity.  It was how one interpreted the entity that was kept from taking precidence over another's.  Nearly all of the original immigrants held Christmas for what it was and the Country celebrated it together.  Pretty much that way until after WW II.  More like the 60's really when the NYT pronounced that God was dead.

To me, to those that have no tolerance for a display of a cross on public property, than can only be zero tolerance on all public property in order to be consistant with that position.

Disclaimer,  FWIW, I belong to no religious organization, nor do I attend church.  I do however believe in a higher power and have experienced proof enough to me that what ever it is, it does exist and I acknowledge and accept it.  I was raised a Christian and know for sure that Jesus was a real person.  After that, I'm open to possibilities.  I am offended that when the subject of Christians is brought up in the context of a debate, the most extreme versions are used to describe all who believe and participate.  Pat Robertson and the Pope do not speak for all Christians anymore than the Reverand Wright or Jesse Jackson.  Christianity does not provide for a political system as does Islam within its written dogma.  One can even argue that with the Kosher Laws that Judaism does as well.

The very debate we are currently egaging in has only started in earnest since the NYT pronounced God is dead.

 
You may be aware of this kurt but Christmas was not really a big holiday until the 19th century. History does not support the bolded statement above and in fact the Puritans thought it was sacrilegious to celebrate Christmas. In England and the rest of Europe celebrating it was largely a day for the lower classes to blow off some steam. The current way we celebrate Christmas is largely a secular invention and most "Christmas traditions" have pagan antecedents.and were made a part of Christmas to entice pagans to become Christians.  Some intereting things here:

HISTORY OF

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 8, 2010 - 7:01pm

 Painted_Turtle wrote:

For many here in Minnesota, we still celebrate the light of the Christmas Festival.  I went to the St. Olaf College Christmas concert in Northfield MN last Thursday night with my family.

Let me share a little of last years Festival with you.  I hope you enjoy it, please be patient it takes a few minutes to get going.  May it be a light to the season for you, as it is for me.  The 2010 Christmas Festival will be broadcast on NPR stations on 12/23, you can listen to it if you wish.

Light of All Creation...Scatter the Darkness St. Olaf Christmas Program

sorry Kurt, I wasn't able to embed the actual music.  If you click on the link it will take you there.  People of all faiths and no faith go to the concert and seem to enjoy it.  There's room for all, just like in the stable.
 

Thanks for that.  Very nice.  I'm going to forward this to my parents.
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 8, 2010 - 1:40pm

Gee, here is an article from pbs.com that says the same thing I said, just to prove that I am nt the only Jew that feels this way:

Jews who went to the gymnasium (or the real history of Hanukkah)

Hanukkah came early this year, beating Christmas out by a good 24 days. For me — and I think for a lot of other Jewish people — Hanukkah really only became big because it happens to fall close to Christmas. The presents? That’s us trying to stay competitive during the holiday season. My father still remembers a time when he and his siblings got pennies, or gelt, for Hanukkah, not presents under the menorah...




Painted_Turtle

Painted_Turtle Avatar

Location: Land of Laughing Waters
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 8, 2010 - 1:33pm

 kurtster wrote:

At one time, Christmas was the most important Holiday in December to most Americans, more than 51% at least.  That was the inherited traditions that were kept for more than a couple of years.  Now we have a recently invented Holiday such as Kwanza added to this "Season".

 
For many here in Minnesota, we still celebrate the light of the Christmas Festival.  I went to the St. Olaf College Christmas concert in Northfield MN last Thursday night with my family.

Let me share a little of last years Festival with you.  I hope you enjoy it, please be patient it takes a few minutes to get going.  May it be a light to the season for you, as it is for me.  The 2010 Christmas Festival will be broadcast on NPR stations on 12/23, you can listen to it if you wish.

Light of All Creation...Scatter the Darkness St. Olaf Christmas Program

< src="http://minnesota.publicradio.org/www_publicradio/tools/media_player/js/swfobject.js" type="text/javascript"><>< type="text/javascript"><
/*>>*/

// ><>
sorry Kurt, I wasn't able to embed the actual music.  If you click on the link it will take you there.  People of all faiths and no faith go to the concert and seem to enjoy it.  There's room for all, just like in the stable.

marko86

marko86 Avatar

Location: North TX
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 8, 2010 - 1:10pm

Whatever happened to "Live and let Live"? That is what I wonder.
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 8, 2010 - 1:09pm

 kurtster wrote:

At one time, Christmas was the most important Holiday in December to most Americans, more than 51% at least.  That was the inherited traditions that were kept for more than a couple of years.  Now we have a recently invented Holiday such as Kwanza added to this "Season".

And just what is Chritianity anyway, besides a belief in Christ as their Saviour ?  There are so many different versions of Christianity.  No one particular version is supported over another, nor has any ever.  The idea that one version should be held superior as a State Religion over another version such as existed in England as well as the most of the rest of Europe was the religious reason for coming to America.  European Monarch's held their throne based upon divine proclamation and thusly enforced their version as the kingdom's official religion.  Spanish Inquisition anybody ?   Colonies did have their official versions until the Constitution was ratified.  Maryland's for example was Catholic.  While there are many other religions in the world and were at the time of the colonization and construction of this country, Christianity was the driving force.  The Constitution while not specific, was designed primarily to prevent an official specific version of Christianity from being adopted as the National Religion.  The Constitution's openendedness has also made this country safe from any version of any religion from being made the official religion.

This country was founded with a universal belief in God as God is mentioned in our founding documents.  These are our roots, there is no denying.  No one was required to believe in God to be here after the Constitution was ratified.  But this country was founded with a belief in a religious entity.  It was how one interpreted the entity that was kept from taking precidence over another's.  Nearly all of the original immigrants held Christmas for what it was and the Country celebrated it together.  Pretty much that way until after WW II.  More like the 60's really when the NYT pronounced that God was dead.

To me, to those that have no tolerance for a display of a cross on public property, than can only be zero tolerance on all public property in order to be consistant with that position.

Disclaimer,  FWIW, I belong to no religious organization, nor do I attend church.  I do however believe in a higher power and have experienced proof enough to me that what ever it is, it does exist and I acknowledge and accept it.  I was raised a Christian and know for sure that Jesus was a real person.  After that, I'm open to possibilities.  I am offended that when the subject of Christians is brought up in the context of a debate, the most extreme versions are used to describe all who believe and participate.  Pat Robertson and the Pope do not speak for all Christians anymore than the Reverand Wright or Jesse Jackson.  Christianity does not provide for a political system as does Islam within its written dogma.  One can even argue that with the Kosher Laws that Judaism does as well.

The very debate we are currently egaging in has only started in earnest since the NYT pronounced God is dead.

 

{#High-five}
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 8, 2010 - 1:05pm

 winter wrote:

You are remarking on how our nation has Christian roots, and implying that Christmas is the most important holiday in the holiday season. It's not such a great leap from there to "this is a Christian nation". Surely you can see that?

The difference between crosses at Arlington and a Nativity scene at City Hall is that one is an expression of religious freedom (the fallen soldiers') and one is an implicit endorsement of Christianity by the city government. If we buried everyone at Arlington under a cross with no regard for their beliefs, that would be inconsistent.

If non-government organizations want to celebrate Christmas in public with parades or festivals or what have you, by all means they should do so - on their own dime, with no involvement from any government agency other than what's needed for public safety.
 
At one time, Christmas was the most important Holiday in December to most Americans, more than 51% at least.  That was the inherited traditions that were kept for more than a couple of years.  Now we have a recently invented Holiday such as Kwanza added to this "Season".

And just what is Chritianity anyway, besides a belief in Christ as their Saviour ?  There are so many different versions of Christianity.  No one particular version is supported over another, nor has any ever.  The idea that one version should be held superior as a State Religion over another version such as existed in England as well as the most of the rest of Europe was the religious reason for coming to America.  European Monarch's held their throne based upon divine proclamation and thusly enforced their version as the kingdom's official religion.  Spanish Inquisition anybody ?   Colonies did have their official versions until the Constitution was ratified.  Maryland's for example was Catholic.  While there are many other religions in the world and were at the time of the colonization and construction of this country, Christianity was the driving force.  The Constitution while not specific, was designed primarily to prevent an official specific version of Christianity from being adopted as the National Religion.  The Constitution's openendedness has also made this country safe from any version of any religion from being made the official religion.

This country was founded with a universal belief in God as God is mentioned in our founding documents.  These are our roots, there is no denying.  No one was required to believe in God to be here after the Constitution was ratified.  But this country was founded with a belief in a religious entity.  It was how one interpreted the entity that was kept from taking precidence over another's.  Nearly all of the original immigrants held Christmas for what it was and the Country celebrated it together.  Pretty much that way until after WW II.  More like the 60's really when the NYT pronounced that God was dead.

To me, to those that have no tolerance for a display of a cross on public property, than can only be zero tolerance on all public property in order to be consistant with that position.

Disclaimer,  FWIW, I belong to no religious organization, nor do I attend church.  I do however believe in a higher power and have experienced proof enough to me that what ever it is, it does exist and I acknowledge and accept it.  I was raised a Christian and know for sure that Jesus was a real person.  After that, I'm open to possibilities.  I am offended that when the subject of Christians is brought up in the context of a debate, the most extreme versions are used to describe all who believe and participate.  Pat Robertson and the Pope do not speak for all Christians anymore than the Reverand Wright or Jesse Jackson.  Christianity does not provide for a political system as does Islam within its written dogma.  One can even argue that with the Kosher Laws that Judaism does as well.

The very debate we are currently egaging in has only started in earnest since the NYT pronounced God is dead.
Danimal174

Danimal174 Avatar

Location: Upstate South Carolina
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 8, 2010 - 10:25am

 RASPUTIN wrote:


Ixnay on the eansbay.  You can't smell that?

 
Hey, he who smelt it...

RASPUTIN

RASPUTIN Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 8, 2010 - 7:51am

 Danimal174 wrote:


I didn't mean to offend. Can I get you another can of beans?

 

Ixnay on the eansbay.  You can't smell that?


Danimal174

Danimal174 Avatar

Location: Upstate South Carolina
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 8, 2010 - 7:50am

 mzpro5 wrote:

Excuse me but we prefer to be referred to as "Gentleman of the Road".
 

I didn't mean to offend. Can I get you another can of beans?
Danimal174

Danimal174 Avatar

Location: Upstate South Carolina
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 8, 2010 - 7:41am

 RASPUTIN wrote:


We can do that.  Color changes are behind curtain number one, religious defections number two, and gender swapping number three.  We aims to please. 

 

...OR, you can take what's in the box!

mzpro5

mzpro5 Avatar

Location: Budda'spet, Hungry
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 8, 2010 - 7:25am

 Danimal174 wrote:


Only for hobos.

 
Excuse me but we prefer to be referred to as "Gentleman of the Road".

Danimal174

Danimal174 Avatar

Location: Upstate South Carolina
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 8, 2010 - 7:21am

 Manbird wrote:

So a railroad xing is actually an abbreviation of railroad christing? Who knew? It's xmas everyday then! Huzzah! 

 

Only for hobos.
Danimal174

Danimal174 Avatar

Location: Upstate South Carolina
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 8, 2010 - 7:18am

 winter wrote:

There is no inconsistency here. The presence of religious symbols on graves at Arlington does not imply government endorsement of any religion. It only implies that the person buried there endorsed the religion whose symbol marks their final resting place.

And that person's presence at Arlington is a recognition that they served and sacrificed in defense of the rights we all enjoy. This includes freedom of religion, despite what the fundamentalist-minded among us might prefer.

Perhaps you think we should emulate Iran? They don't show much respect for other faiths, and why should they? They're a Muslim nation. Says so right in their constitution. Their cultural heritage is Muslim, and has been for longer than we've lived on this side of the Atlantic. I assume that you have no problem with their government's full-throated endorsement of their predominant religion at the expense of all others? Or with the Taliban's, for that matter?

The Quakers and Puritans came here precisely to escape the marriage of church and state. You didn't have to be Anglican to live in England, but you were damn sure treated like a second-class citizen and borderline traitor if you weren't. And God help you if you complained about it, because no one else would.

I find it deeply ironic and profoundly offensive that people ever since the Puritans keep trying to twist this legacy into its opposite. In the United States, we have no official religion or creed - we hold all beliefs and believers equal under the law. Let's keep it that way.
 
{#Clap}

Couldn't have said it better myself.

musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 7, 2010 - 6:50pm

 buddy wrote:

Crap!  Was that you back in 1962?  All apologies...
 

That was you? I know I got one good nanny nanny boo boo in...


musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 7, 2010 - 6:41pm

 buddy wrote:

I keep my hopes up but it's been 50 Christmas' - not sure how much longer I can hold out.
 

All good things come to those who wait...or something like that. Short of that, you could always strong arm a neighborhood kid who has what you wish for...just sayin'.
Manbird

Manbird Avatar

Location: ? ? ?
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 7, 2010 - 6:15pm

 buddy wrote:

Make that lying rat bastid. I never got that freakin' red wagon.
 
yet
BlueHeronDruid

BlueHeronDruid Avatar

Location: Заебани сме луѓе


Posted: Dec 7, 2010 - 5:12pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

I'm high and therefore easily offended.
 


hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 7, 2010 - 5:10pm

Ahhh! Now I get it!! Hint: Roger Ailes is the Grinch, LInus is Glenn Beck:

The Daily Show With Jon StewartMon - Thurs 11p / 10c
The Gretch Who Saved the War on Christmas
www.thedailyshow.com
Daily Show Full EpisodesPolitical HumorThe Daily Show on Facebook


Manbird

Manbird Avatar

Location: ? ? ?
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 7, 2010 - 5:09pm

 oldviolin wrote:


{#Bananapiano}
 
Lol  Notworthy  Clap

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