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ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 8:53pm

 buddy wrote:
Oh, and the increase in taxes on cigarettes applied evenly to anyone who smokes, regardless of race, creed, color, age, sexual orientation, financial circumstances, or political leanings.  Maybe the most fairly applied tax in history!  Can't be helped that 99% of smokers aren't rich.
 
Certainly not. Sales taxes, sin taxes, excise taxes are all regressive, meaning they're a higher tax rate % the lower your income. Of course the sin tax can be avoided altogether by simply not smoking or drinking and in this respect it's identical to a lottery. Would you want important gov't programs paid for via a lottery?
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 8:01pm

 buddy wrote:

And if he compares favorably, let's not bury this on page 25 of Section E.

You are surely not arguing in favor of lower taxes and therefore availability and usage of cigarettes? I mean....they could quit smoking, live another 20 years, and vote out a couple of Democratic governors or senators or maybe even a president down the road.  Not mention all the money they'd save in not buying the cigarettes in the first place.  Sorry to preach, lifelong non-smoker here.  {#Wink}

Oh, and the increase in taxes on cigarettes applied evenly to anyone who smokes, regardless of race, creed, color, age, sexual orientation, financial circumstances, or political leanings.  Maybe the most fairly applied tax in history!  Can't be helped that 99% of smokers aren't rich.

 
So what happens to the children who benefit from the tax if everyone quits smoking ?

What happens to all the programs that benefit from the taxation of cigarettes ?

Are you aware that the annual take on cigarette taxes is $100 Billion per year, none of which benefits the smokers such as in healthcare for the smoker ?  With that much money paid in taxes, smokers could pay for their own health related issues with plenty of mony left over for other things.

The $100 B is a solid number as I have done the research long ago.  Its more than the tax increase on the wealthy that Obama is trying to get passed which by most estimates only brings in $85 B per year.

That's a lot of money to extract from a decidely lower class segment of the population.

How come cigarettes are not just simply banned ?  Because of that $100 B is why.

Oh, and your claim that tobacco is presently regulated by the FDA is false, too, IIRC.  While the sale is restricted, as it has been forever in most cases, they are not involved at all in the manufacture and content of tobacco products.  The FDA just duplicated FTC and state laws already on the books, or in essence has done nothing new that was not already done before.  They are still just as deadly as they have always been.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 7:35pm

 buddy wrote:

On this we can agree.  Let's hope it doesn't take one day being on the other end of this to get it.  Before you buy off on all the oblique arguments about how voter ID laws are just some innocent thing and what's the big deal, ask yourself this and give your best honest answer. 

Why now?  Why by GOP controlled state governments backed by the GOP House?  Why, when all evidence clearly shows this to be a non-issue - you'd sooner get hit by lightning while being eaten by a great white shark while waiting in line to vote than have someone in line with you committing voter fraud.  Look it up. Why does do the laws affect the old, the young, and minorities, and not, say, blue collar white male voters and rich people?

What I just don't understand is why we are even having this dialog in 2012.  Oh yeah, I remember now.

 

That answer is simple, since you asked.

Because of the empowering and enabling of illegal immigrants by the current administration.  This has nothing to do with race, age or class as much as you or anyone else would try and make the case.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 7:31pm

 buddy wrote:
40. Expanded the SCHIP program to cover health care for 4 million more children

63. Ordered a review of hurricane and natural disaster preparedness
 
The list is too easy to pick apart.

I'll just take on these two.

The SCHIP program expansion was soley accomplished by instituting a new tax on people making less than $250k per year.  He did it purely by creating an additional tax on cigarette smokers, most of whom are blue collar and make well less then his $250k mark.

And as for #63, we might get a chance to see how that is going to work as New Orleans seems to be in the crosshairs of a hurricane right now.  We just might get to compare him to Bush on hurricanes.


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 7:13pm

 buddy wrote:

Those things aren't rights granted to our citizens the 15th Amendment to The Constitution and the Voting Rights Act of 1965.  They are not anything near equivalent.  You know this, I know you can do better than that, all due respect.

And you can certainly get a job and buy booze & cigarettes without ID.  You used to be able to board a plane before 9/11.

These laws are at issue because the GOP has a stated agenda of getting Obama out of office however they can, including passing bullshit laws that are clearly aimed at suppressing the vote of the old, young, and minorities. It couldn't be more blatant and I can't pretend otherwise.

 
While you may be able to buy booze and cigs without ID once you look a certain age, getting a job other than day labor on the other hand without proper ID or phony proper ID is next to nearly impossible.

As far back as the 80's I had to properly document friends in order to hire them for simple work.  They had to produce two forms of government issued ID in order to be properly documented for hiring purposes.

Everyone should have a proper ID.  They are simple to obtain and cost little to no money in many states.  The same people who provide rides to polling places can certainly do the same for getting the same people proper ID's.

If one is going to participate in government functions and services, then they should have proper government ID, across the board.  I see nothing partisan in that thought.  What I do see as partisan is objecting to something that applies evenly to everyone.  This is not a poll tax.  Its not a polling test.  Its just a simple formality.  To call it voter suppression is something I just don't understand.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 6:28pm

 buddy wrote:

The Republican-controlled state governments that have been busily passing new and totally unnecessary & bogus voter suppression ID laws just in time for the election.

 
If that's what its all about, then I'll just respectfully disagree.

I see no reason to object to having the same ID necessary to get a job, board an airplane or buy booze and cigarettes for voting.

Oh and there are always elections.  These laws you refer to have been in the works for many months and in some cases, years.  The right before election time is not a valid claim, IMO.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 2:48pm

 ScottN wrote:

Perhaps, but who is using then now?

 
Do tell.

Who is ?
ScottN

ScottN Avatar

Location: Half inch above the K/T boundary
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 2:38pm

 kurtster wrote:



 
Perhaps, but who is using then now?
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 27, 2012 - 2:24pm


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 16, 2011 - 8:24pm

 romeotuma wrote:

And that cartoon, especially the deficit reference, seems as relevant as ever...

 

 

I just went back to the oldest, and in the few pages here, there is a time capsule full of stuff ... 
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 16, 2011 - 8:20pm

 romeotuma wrote:

Hard to believe that two years have gone by so fast...  time flies when we're having fun, eh?

 

 

{#Yes}
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 23, 2011 - 1:18pm

 islander wrote:

This could get really long.

First let me say that I do generally consider myself to be fairly conservative fiscally, so I have no representation in the .gov on that front.  Socially I'm really liberal, so I think the dems have a few decent ideas, but no stomach for what really should be said and no sense at all when it comes to paying for social programs (I support quite a few of those, from public education to public health care). Frankly I think the dems main failing is a failure to really embrace the progressive side of their party.  No we can't have welfare for all and unlimited arts and social programs. But we can have single payer health care, we can have gay marriage, we can have a solid public commons that supports and grows the underprivileged in our society, and keeps all but the absolute laziest from living under the bridges (and my conservative side could fix that problem too).

The dems haven't done enough on entitlement programs. They haven't done enough on taxation. They haven't made their case that they have a good set of ideas, and been willing to stand behind them even if it means not being re-elected.  This is good for me, because I doubt I would like a lot of the social stuff they would put forward. 

So to that point - the fact that re-election numbers are so high is our fault. We keep electing these bozos and then complaining about them for then next cycle. But then we re-elect them. What a bunch of dolts we are. Sure, money, gerrymandering, misleading ads.... whatever, we punch the ballot, it's our fault. As an electorate we are failing. We can't even mobilize half of us to show up. Bad on us.

I'm all out of order here, but I'm not going to fix it.  Vicitmhood. Yes, that's you. Go back and look at your previous post. It's all wah, wah, wah, Democrats, wah, wah, wah, won't let us play, wah, wah, wah, not our fault...... Sheesh. Put your fucking pants on, wipe off the tears, take credit and blame where appropriate, and get back in there with me and let's try to get 79% of the people to vote so we can toss out some of these idiots.  Sorry if that was a bit harsh, but that post was a whiny, bitchy tirade.

Wisconsin, Indiana and Ohio need to all get their shit together. The right needs to stop being so vindictive and the left needs to stop being so entitled. They need to sit down and work out a compromise. This means that neither side gets what they want, but they figure out a way to make it work. The electorate of all three deserve what they get if the officials can't get their crap together soon. Lather, rinse, repeat for the entire nation if we have a .gov shutdown in March.   

That's enough for now. I'm happy that you are active and in the debate. I'm glad you support the tea party. I want your participation even where we don't agree. I think there is enough good that we can compromise and be stronger/better together than we would be apart. If not we'll have to divide up the kids and the furniture and sell the house. And no one wins in that situation. Just don't tell me it's all my fault, and that you had nothing to do with it. This breakdown has been a long time coming. All sides are culpable and responsible and need to take part in the fix. 

 

Thanks for that.  Not a rambling or unreasonable response to my question, IMO. 

We are somewhat close in the fiscal conservative / socially liberal department.  I am really fiscally conservative, probably to an extreme in many people's opinion.  I'm extremely socially liberal to the point that as long as any behaviour does not require a government subsidy to facilitate and does not undermine the social standing of the traditional heterosexually based family structure, then I'm all good. 

My reference point you call the victim is purely coming from the point of view that the MSM attacks Republicans and defends Democrats.  Right or wrong is not the issue to me, it just is what it seems to be to me in the broadbrush sense.  In reality, both sides are compliscent and that is not lost on me when actually arguing the reality of a specific subject.

My problem with the Democrats is pretty simple.  I disgree with nearly every energy policy they profess.  I disgree with their world view and national defense posture.  I disagree with their view on State's rights.  I disagree with their domestic economic policies.  I disgree with their position that unions for government workers are necessary even when Civil Service Commision rules already cover the matters of employment.  The unions are redundent and in the public sector only benefit Democrat Party positions and candidates.  The taxpayers are paying for this redundant and unnecessary expense for public sector unions.  This is a scam whose time is up and no longer acceptable to me and many others.  Private sector unions are a completely seperate issue and should continue unaffected by linkage and misinformation in the public sector discussion.

The socalled union busting going on in Wisconsin, Indiana and Ohio, where parallel and older Civil Service strutures are already in place is a straw argument.  We either have a Civil Service Structure or a Union Structure for government employment, not both, especially when the Civil Service trumps the union.  The position of the Democrat party is that we must have both.  Bull puckey. 

{#Cheers}


hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Feb 23, 2011 - 1:00pm

 peter_james_bond wrote:

Walker's Has Created The Problem!

There is a kernel of truth in Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's claim of a "budget shortfall" of $137 million. But Walker, a Republican, failed to tell the state that less than two weeks into his term as governor, he, with his swollen Republican majorities in the Wisconsin legislature, pushed through $117 million in tax breaks for business allies of the GOP. There is your crisis.

The state Legislature's Legislative Fiscal Bureau — Wisconsin's equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office and a refuge for professional expertise and nonpartisanship — warned Walker and the legislature that the measure would create a budget gap. There is your shortfall — and not one resulting from established public employee benefits. Before the tax giveaways, the fiscal agency predicted a surplus for the state. Read More Here


 
Zackly. Maybe Kurtster should get all the facts before he starts accusing.

peter_james_bond

peter_james_bond Avatar

Location: West Of The Burg
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 23, 2011 - 12:56pm

 kurtster wrote:
Elected D's are abadoning their posts like rats bailing from a sinking ship.

First they have left Wisconsin and now they have left Indiana.  WTF ?

I hear they will be bailing from Ohio next.

The whole place is upside down.  Now Democrats don't want to vote ?

This is really the best exhibition of sore loosers ever witnessed in American politics.

And they will probably want to get paid while partying hiding in other states rather than showing up and doing their elected job.

The Teachers on strike in Wisconsin have even gotten sympathetic doctors to write them phony excuses to say they were sick while protesting.

And Obama has given his blessings to this behaviuor.

This is freaking insane.  And these are adults ?

 
Walker's Has Created The Problem!

There is a kernel of truth in Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's claim of a "budget shortfall" of $137 million. But Walker, a Republican, failed to tell the state that less than two weeks into his term as governor, he, with his swollen Republican majorities in the Wisconsin legislature, pushed through $117 million in tax breaks for business allies of the GOP. There is your crisis.

The state Legislature's Legislative Fiscal Bureau — Wisconsin's equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office and a refuge for professional expertise and nonpartisanship — warned Walker and the legislature that the measure would create a budget gap. There is your shortfall — and not one resulting from established public employee benefits. Before the tax giveaways, the fiscal agency predicted a surplus for the state. Read More Here



Umberdog

Umberdog Avatar

Location: In my body.
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 23, 2011 - 6:20am

It's the dawn of a dark new scary present. Time to take a nap.
Yibbyl

Yibbyl Avatar

Location: Gaäd only knows
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 23, 2011 - 6:11am

 Umberdog wrote:
I can't wait to see what your courts look like. Just kidding.

There's lots of reasons people won't work. It's not always laziness. Nature had a perfect filtering mechanism installed, but people have subverted it. It was called the "natural process," or "survival of the fittest" for you lay folks. See, if people would have just let Nature do her business you wouldn't be having this conversation.

It's a really confusing mess of a world. I don't know what to do. Maybe we should just turn it all over to a shaman somewhere. Not JadeWahoo... it would cost us a fortune!
 
Oh yes, the "good old days".  The reason we are having this conversation, though, is because man kept breeding and living longer and longer.  Population density increased to the point that one day while my family was bringing our cattle over some low mountain pass, we came across your family's gorgeous valley.  We had never seen such lush crops before and you couldn't understand why we had more than one cow.  Nature took over and our cows started enjoying your garden with its strange irrigation.  You were frustrated, wanted to protect the results of your hard work, and confronted me!  This made me frustrated as I didn't see a need for confrontation because you had so much food concentrated in one space and my cattle needed to eat!  This scenario and others like it repeated over and over throughout the land.  Soon we had ads for lawyers on the back of telephone books.

Sorry.  At this point, barring a seriously swift decrease in population and resources due to disease, wars, or drastic climate change, we aren't going back to the "good old days".  Now we need to relearn how to respect one another, our environment, and collectively work towards making society better for all.  At present, our silly two-party system complete with blinders, scapegoats, large amounts of money, and controlled by children seems unable to learn this.

Umberdog

Umberdog Avatar

Location: In my body.
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 22, 2011 - 11:21pm

 islander wrote:
Read carefully. I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that under my plan there would be provisions for people in those situations. If you're down and out, we will have a program to help. If you're crazy, we'll have an institution. If you're simply to lazy to participate in our society, then I would make it so that you could not access any of the benefits of our society and make it difficult for you to stay here. It makes me sad that we have let things go so far that people are living under bridges. I'll help the down on their luck and the downtrodden, I won't help those who won't help themselves, and I will resent their presence in our great societal experiment.
 
I can't wait to see what your courts look like. Just kidding.

There's lots of reasons people won't work. It's not always laziness. Nature had a perfect filtering mechanism installed, but people have subverted it. It was called the "natural process," or "survival of the fittest" for you lay folks. See, if people would have just let Nature do her business you wouldn't be having this conversation.

It's a really confusing mess of a world. I don't know what to do. Maybe we should just turn it all over to a shaman somewhere. Not JadeWahoo... it would cost us a fortune!


islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 22, 2011 - 10:43pm

 Umberdog wrote:
If you think it's easy to live under a bridge then you've never done it. Some people simply aren't wired for this world they're in.
 
Read carefully. I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that under my plan there would be provisions for people in those situations. If you're down and out, we will have a program to help. If you're crazy, we'll have an institution. If you're simply to lazy to participate in our society, then I would make it so that you could not access any of the benefits of our society and make it difficult for you to stay here. It makes me sad that we have let things go so far that people are living under bridges. I'll help the down on their luck and the downtrodden, I won't help those who won't help themselves, and I will resent their presence in our great societal experiment.
Umberdog

Umberdog Avatar

Location: In my body.
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 22, 2011 - 10:36pm

If you think it's easy to live under a bridge then you've never done it. Some people simply aren't wired for this world they're in.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 22, 2011 - 10:26pm

 kurtster wrote:


They do not get sent home.  85% of the incumbants won reelection to Congress in 2010. 

Victim, huh ?  Don't think so.  Only complaints I've heard from the non conservative side is that they didn't do enough.

As one of the few open supporters of the Tea Party here, I've picked on the Repubs almost as much as the Dems over the years.

In your non conservative viewpoint, just what specifically did the Dems do wrong in the past 2 years ?  I've said plenty, haven't heard much from you on the actual question.

And more to my opening points this evening, the Wisconsin Legislature has or is passing a law where if a member misses two scheduled days in a pay period, direct deposit of pay is stopped and members must show up on the floor to pick up their paychecks.  That'll get em back home !

I'll hang up and take the answers off the air.

{#Mrgreen}

In the morning ... 
 
This could get really long.

First let me say that I do generally consider myself to be fairly conservative fiscally, so I have no representation in the .gov on that front.  Socially I'm really liberal, so I think the dems have a few decent ideas, but no stomach for what really should be said and no sense at all when it comes to paying for social programs (I support quite a few of those, from public education to public health care). Frankly I think the dems main failing is a failure to really embrace the progressive side of their party.  No we can't have welfare for all and unlimited arts and social programs. But we can have single payer health care, we can have gay marriage, we can have a solid public commons that supports and grows the underprivileged in our society, and keeps all but the absolute laziest from living under the bridges (and my conservative side could fix that problem too).

The dems haven't done enough on entitlement programs. They haven't done enough on taxation. They haven't made their case that they have a good set of ideas, and been willing to stand behind them even if it means not being re-elected.  This is good for me, because I doubt I would like a lot of the social stuff they would put forward. 

So to that point - the fact that re-election numbers are so high is our fault. We keep electing these bozos and then complaining about them for then next cycle. But then we re-elect them. What a bunch of dolts we are. Sure, money, gerrymandering, misleading ads.... whatever, we punch the ballot, it's our fault. As an electorate we are failing. We can't even mobilize half of us to show up. Bad on us.

I'm all out of order here, but I'm not going to fix it.  Vicitmhood. Yes, that's you. Go back and look at your previous post. It's all wah, wah, wah, Democrats, wah, wah, wah, won't let us play, wah, wah, wah, not our fault...... Sheesh. Put your fucking pants on, wipe off the tears, take credit and blame where appropriate, and get back in there with me and let's try to get 79% of the people to vote so we can toss out some of these idiots.  Sorry if that was a bit harsh, but that post was a whiny, bitchy tirade.

Wisconsin, Indiana and Ohio need to all get their shit together. The right needs to stop being so vindictive and the left needs to stop being so entitled. They need to sit down and work out a compromise. This means that neither side gets what they want, but they figure out a way to make it work. The electorate of all three deserve what they get if the officials can't get their crap together soon. Lather, rinse, repeat for the entire nation if we have a .gov shutdown in March.   

That's enough for now. I'm happy that you are active and in the debate. I'm glad you support the tea party. I want your participation even where we don't agree. I think there is enough good that we can compromise and be stronger/better together than we would be apart. If not we'll have to divide up the kids and the furniture and sell the house. And no one wins in that situation. Just don't tell me it's all my fault, and that you had nothing to do with it. This breakdown has been a long time coming. All sides are culpable and responsible and need to take part in the fix. 


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