You are 100% right that we don't generate the electricity we need for the future (cars or otherwise) cleanly. However setting goals to get there is important, not just throw up our hands and say it can't be done. This is America, we were able to accomplish extraordinary things in the past (Interstate highway system, cities, space programs). Are we no longer capable of such great things? We can find ways to get thru the long process of regulations that stand in the way of progress. We can fight back on the disinformation that pervades our society that is also a road block to progress.
Pointing to the comments about smog and the forum category we are in here, California set the higher standards to fight pollution and the rest of the country followed. If they want to put forth lofty and important goals we should get behind them, not in front of them. Waiting around for the infrastructure to come first isn't going to help the situation we are in. They need to develop hand in hand in order for California and subsequently America to succeed.
The problem is they bring their airheadness with them.
I haven't noticed. I did meet a girl and we've kept in touch over our love of succulents. She wants us to take a trip together to get wild ones and bring them back here, but she said she's afraid we might get our heads cut off by the cartel. I laughed but she didn't.
There you have it. There is agreement the media is biased, on this and many other issues. The disagreement is on whose side!
Once the media decides on a winner, the planet will cool and we can finally talk about something important... like the amount of oil used to make vinyl records vs the greenhouse impact of storing everything using electricity.
There have been many studies done about that and the carbon footprint of digital music. It is actually higher than PVC records, much higher.
There you have it. There is agreement the media is biased, on this and many other issues. The disagreement is on whose side!
Once the media decides on a winner, the planet will cool and we can finally talk about something important... like the amount of oil used to make vinyl records vs the greenhouse impact of storing everything using electricity.
Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth
Posted:
Apr 19, 2023 - 5:18am
kurtster wrote:
Steely_D wrote:
And you can expect a massive amount of pushback from those who earn a living pushing oil - who are hand-in-glove with the media - so the media will be telling you that there are too many problems for society to give up burning fossil fuels.
kurtster wrote:
The media is in cahoots with the Green New Deal, not opposed to it.
There you have it. There is agreement the media is biased, on this and many other issues. The disagreement is on whose side!
There is the problem. It will take time. Something that can't be done in a few years.
And you can expect a massive amount of pushback from those who earn a living pushing oil - who are hand-in-glove with the media - so the media will be telling you that there are too many problems for society to give up burning fossil fuels. It would be inconceivable! To me, what's so puzzling, is the insistence to remain tied so inextricably to the gas pump. Why? If you can find something that doesn't spit crap into the air, it seems like a reasonable goal.
It's not the gas pump. It is electricity. Last number I have heard is that fossil fuels account for 80% of the power generation in this country. You talk about electricity, but refuse to talk about how it is made. It is like talking about meat in a grocery store and ignoring the slaughter houses that provide the grocery stores with the meat we eat.
You make it sound like we can replace 80% of our electric generation capacity over night. Right, uh huh.
The regulations and permitting process makes it impossible as I mentioned earlier. The media is in cahoots with the Green New Deal, not opposed to it.
IIRC, Mr Wonderful from Shark Tank is getting ready to build a brand new oil refinery with state of the art technology. The first new refinery in decades. First he has to find a state that is willing to let it happen. Let's see how he does. I bet he can't get it done. The deck is stacked way against him.
. Turn off the oil and you turn out the lights, period. What part of this does not make sense ?
OBTW, quality of life / standard of living is directly related to the cost of energy.
Last gas price I saw around here was $3.23. That was yesterday. How much is it out there again ?
There is the problem.
It will take time. Something that can't be done in a few years.
And you can expect a massive amount of pushback from those who earn a living pushing oil - who are hand-in-glove with the media - so the media will be telling you that there are too many problems for society to give up burning fossil fuels. It would be inconceivable! To me, what's so puzzling, is the insistence to remain tied so inextricably to the gas pump. Why? If you can find something that doesn't spit crap into the air, it seems like a reasonable goal.
Cars didnât clean up cities but replaced stationary piles of dung with invisible clouds of pollution that moved with the wind. The automobile also allowed the rich and middle class to abandon public transit as well as street contact with the working poor and immigrants. But the carâs exponential growth quickly exacerbated old urban issues from congestion to traffic fatalities. (Car crashes remain the leading cause of death for people ages 10 to 24 around the world.)
The automobile also accelerated oil spending, expanded road infrastructure and played a major role in fouling the atmosphere with greenhouse gas emissions. To this day the combustion engine, which still employs one out of six U.S. citizens, accounts for nearly a quarter of all climate destabilizing pollution."
Location: Really deep in the heart of South California Gender:
Posted:
Apr 18, 2023 - 8:30pm
kurtster wrote:
And just how much of this electricity gets generated by alternative sources vs fossil fuels ?
How will the increased demand be met in the future without fossil fuels ?
You're creating a need without a sufficient supply of what is needed to meet this increased demand and there are no plans yet anywhere to accomplish this. There are no plans to improve the infrastructure, just talk about plans.
Build the infrastructure first, then build the things that will depend on it. We need the infrastructure regardless of what kind of vehicles we are going to be driving. The existing infrastructure, especially in Cal, is insufficient to meet the existing demands. The regulatory processes currently in place make accomplishing this nearly impossible before even trying to start.
Tell me I'm wrong about any of this. And why.
There is the problem.
It will take time. Something that can't be done in a few years.
But what you do not get from your before and after picture is that the cleanup was accomplished without electric cars and not to mention nearly 10 times as many cars today as back in the 60's ...
Cars got better at burning fossil fuels. Still, fewer ICE means fewer pollutants. And less reliance on the people who control the oil supply. Right now, the better choice is a plug-in hybrid, and there are plenty of options.
Later, as the infrastructure improves, all electric will be the norm
and folks who held onto their horse drawn carriages for whatever reason will get a Model T and not look back.
And just how much of this electricity gets generated by alternative sources vs fossil fuels ?
How will the increased demand be met in the future without fossil fuels ?
You're creating a need without a sufficient supply of what is needed to meet this increased demand and there are no plans yet anywhere to accomplish this. There are no plans to improve the infrastructure, just talk about plans.
Build the infrastructure first, then build the things that will depend on it. We need the infrastructure regardless of what kind of vehicles we are going to be driving. The existing infrastructure, especially in Cal, is insufficient to meet the existing demands. The regulatory processes currently in place make accomplishing this nearly impossible before even trying to start.
Location: Really deep in the heart of South California Gender:
Posted:
Apr 18, 2023 - 4:00pm
kurtster wrote:
I most certainly do. I have seen and breathed a burning layer of yellow brown smog filling the entire bay and making Alcatraz invisible. Only able to see the tippy tops of the bridges peeking out above the layer. Riding through downtown Oakland unable to see more than a couple of blocks through the same. Strange / unusual thermal inversion. Third grade. I came down with double pneumonia. Went to school the first day and was out for the next two and a half months being homeschooled by my Mom. I have had scar tissue in my right lung since from that. Later down south I have seen Santa Catalina Island surrounded by brown smog that looked like the rings of Saturn every time the Santana winds blew all of the smog out of the San Fernando Valley all at once and a months worth of smog piled up offshore in a day. Then the winds shift back to onshore and it comes back in down in good ole Orange County. I remember getting out of class after HS a few times and our lungs were burning from breathing the brown air.
But what you do not get from your before and after picture is that the cleanup was accomplished without electric cars and not to mention nearly 10 times as many cars today as back in the 60's ...
Yep.
I grew up in Orange County (Anaheim).
I remember summer days playing outside when your lungs would really hurt breathing in.
And walking to Jr. High in '68- '69 in the dense fog. Where the dew would burn your eyes.
I think a lot of that was Kaiser Steel in Fontana putting a lot of crap in the air. They're no longer there. And those older engines were not the peak of tech back then.
And you absolutely correct about the cars today. It's really hard to beat today's internal combustion engine with all the good computer controls they now have.
I can use the example of my truck. Being a '74, it's allowed 850 ppm hydrocarbons at idle. My wife's Durango is allowed 16 ppm.
BUT, I built my last engine the way the engines are built today, without all the computer controls though. And it puts out less than half I'm allowed.
Somebody around here posted the statistics comparing the cost, analysis and "footprint" between the building of a electric car versus a gasoline car. And it was staggering how much better it was to produce a car with an internal combustion engine. Not to mention not dealing with certain countries that don't have our interest in mind. Or the interest of even their own people.
Location: Really deep in the heart of South California Gender:
Posted:
Apr 18, 2023 - 3:39pm
Beez wrote:
They're leaving in droves and all coming here. nttawwt - I can't tell you how many people from Cali that I've met over the past year or so that have moved here. I don't mind as long as they're not assholes. Otherwise I'll have to ask them to go back from whence they came.
The problem is they bring their airheadness with them.
But what you do not get from your before and after picture is that the cleanup was accomplished without electric cars and not to mention nearly 10 times as many cars today as back in the 60's ...
Cars got better at burning fossil fuels. Still, fewer ICE means fewer pollutants. And less reliance on the people who control the oil supply.
Right now, the better choice is a plug-in hybrid, and there are plenty of options. Later, as the infrastructure improves, all electric will be the norm and folks who held onto their horse drawn carriages for whatever reason will get a Model T and not look back.
I most certainly do. I have seen and breathed a burning layer of yellow brown smog filling the entire bay and making Alcatraz invisible. Only able to see the tippy tops of the bridges peeking out above the layer. Riding through downtown Oakland unable to see more than a couple of blocks through the same. Strange / unusual thermal inversion. Third grade. I came down with double pneumonia. Went to school the first day and was out for the next two and a half months being homeschooled by my Mom. I have had scar tissue in my right lung since from that. Later down south I have seen Santa Catalina Island surrounded by brown smog that looked like the rings of Saturn every time the Santana winds blew all of the smog out of the San Fernando Valley all at once and a months worth of smog piled up offshore in a day. Then the winds shift back to onshore and it comes back in down in good ole Orange County. I remember getting out of class after HS a few times and our lungs were burning from breathing the brown air.
But what you do not get from your before and after picture is that the cleanup was accomplished without electric cars and not to mention nearly 10 times as many cars today as back in the 60's ...
Yep, buy electric cars. You can must have them, but good luck using them.
You certainly remember the good old days of smog.
It's probably a good thing to look forward to the inevitable using up of dead dinosaurs (with rising oil prices as demand outstrips supply), and then figure out how to not be enslaved to Big Oil, although I'd expect the media to tell you to stick with their sponsors. What do they care?
According to SCE, the fixed rate will cover âthe costs of safely building, maintaining and operating the electric grid, of providing customer support, and the cost of state initiatives to help income-qualified customers and energy-efficiency programs.â
That's great news for a place with the grid so fragile and dangerous they turn off the power when it gets windy.
Yep, buy electric cars. You can must have them, but good luck using them.
They're leaving in droves and all coming here. nttawwt - I can't tell you how many people from Cali that I've met over the past year or so that have moved here. I don't mind as long as they're not assholes. Otherwise I'll have to ask them to go back from whence they came.
