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ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 26, 2016 - 10:38am

 Lazy8 wrote:
SchottFromWyoming wrote:
The EpiPen is a $300 device that delivers $1 worth of medicine; if you're okay with sticking yourself, you can just do that. If you're okay with 1970s tech, there are other autoinjectors available that are still expensive but not nearly as bad as EpiPens. Your Dr. just needs to prescribe "epinephrine .3ml" instead of "EpiPen" and the pharmacist can provide whatever you're most comfortable with. EpiPens are great because I can probably stick you successfully, even though I practice with a dummy device about once every two years. The older ones are more complicated and success on a thrashing patient is less assured. But people who truly have a life-threatening allergy are probably fine with the older generic autoinjector as they're likely to practice with the dummy device at least monthly, about the amount of time experts say is necessary to keep skills up. Others (diabetics?)(pet/animal owners who inject animals routinely) may be just fine with a vial of epinephrine and a standard syringe. Time is of the essence, though, and people aren't likely to carry those everywhere.

But as I understand it, and I'm probably wrong, part of the problem here is patents. This isn't a case of getting a drug thru a lot of trials, it's just a company making hay until their patent expires in 2025. The FDA still has an interest in making sure alternatives/generics are a straight-across equivalent to the brand name product, so new autoinjectors that try to skirt the patent are probably not going to fly. Maybe someone will be able to come up with a better system that doesn't infringe, but they'll just patent that and do the same thing, right?

Kinda.

I used to design medical products. We frequently were given a challenge of getting around a patent to design a competitive product. In ten years of doing it we never failed once.

The patent is an obstacle but it's one that can be overcome. The obstacle you can't overcome without very deep pockets behind you is the FDA. Your new product will need approvals. If it is similar enough to already-approved products (a somewhat subjective call made by the FDA) you get to go thru a much less laborious process called 510(k) where you get to piggyback on the clinical trials of your competitors, otherwise you face years of clinical trials. Very expensive years in which the investment you've made in product R&D is earning you less than nothing.

It's also frozen—no changes until you get approval. Which means new manufacturing technology or better detail design has to wait until the FDA clears your first shot at it. And oy have I seen some horrible design frozen in amber like that. But I digress.

As a teenager I used to carry a two-shot epinephrine syringe with me for a beesting allergy decades before the EpiPen. Never had to use it but I'm sure I could have. The EpiPen is a great advance, but it should be a $25 product. It isn't—when CD players and cars and cell phones (vastly more complex products) are cheaper every day—because the FDA has the manufacturer's back. Once you get past the hoops they make you jump thru you're in the club and big brother will keep the public safe from your competition.

 
 

Somewhere else (maybe here, who knows? ) I read someone saying that pricing for drugs of any stripe are set by pricing it at an astronomical number, then seeing what the insurance will cover. That becomes the sticker price, with the understanding that insurance has already negotiated a rate far below that number so when they say "we'll pay $600" it means "we'll pay $100 and you'll write off the balance" but someone without insurance, or with a $5000 deductible, will pay the full $600. And Mylan just blamed consumers for having those high deductible plans because otherwise they wouldn't even see the cost and there wouldn't be any complaints and they'd have had a carefree August. And they blamed insurance companies for something too I couldn't follow the logic so it's left me.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 26, 2016 - 10:12am

 Lazy8 wrote:
SchottFromWyoming wrote:
The EpiPen is a $300 device that delivers $1 worth of medicine; if you're okay with sticking yourself, you can just do that. If you're okay with 1970s tech, there are other autoinjectors available that are still expensive but not nearly as bad as EpiPens. Your Dr. just needs to prescribe "epinephrine .3ml" instead of "EpiPen" and the pharmacist can provide whatever you're most comfortable with. EpiPens are great because I can probably stick you successfully, even though I practice with a dummy device about once every two years. The older ones are more complicated and success on a thrashing patient is less assured. But people who truly have a life-threatening allergy are probably fine with the older generic autoinjector as they're likely to practice with the dummy device at least monthly, about the amount of time experts say is necessary to keep skills up. Others (diabetics?)(pet/animal owners who inject animals routinely) may be just fine with a vial of epinephrine and a standard syringe. Time is of the essence, though, and people aren't likely to carry those everywhere.

But as I understand it, and I'm probably wrong, part of the problem here is patents. This isn't a case of getting a drug thru a lot of trials, it's just a company making hay until their patent expires in 2025. The FDA still has an interest in making sure alternatives/generics are a straight-across equivalent to the brand name product, so new autoinjectors that try to skirt the patent are probably not going to fly. Maybe someone will be able to come up with a better system that doesn't infringe, but they'll just patent that and do the same thing, right?

Kinda.

I used to design medical products. We frequently were given a challenge of getting around a patent to design a competitive product. In ten years of doing it we never failed once.

The patent is an obstacle but it's one that can be overcome. The obstacle you can't overcome without very deep pockets behind you is the FDA. Your new product will need approvals. If it is similar enough to already-approved products (a somewhat subjective call made by the FDA) you get to go thru a much less laborious process called 510(k) where you get to piggyback on the clinical trials of your competitors, otherwise you face years of clinical trials. Very expensive years in which the investment you've made in product R&D is earning you less than nothing.

It's also frozen—no changes until you get approval. Which means new manufacturing technology or better detail design has to wait until the FDA clears your first shot at it. And oy have I seen some horrible design frozen in amber like that. But I digress.

As a teenager I used to carry a two-shot epinephrine syringe with me for a beesting allergy decades before the EpiPen. Never had to use it but I'm sure I could have. The EpiPen is a great advance, but it should be a $25 product. It isn't—when CD players and cars and cell phones (vastly more complex products) are cheaper every day—because the FDA has the manufacturer's back. Once you get past the hoops they make you jump thru you're in the club and big brother will keep the public safe from your competition.

 
The patent process for the injector is an obstacle that's not really addressed for pharmaceuticals (in terms of easing the speed to market for generics).  Regardless, if there were a dozen companies out there providing epinephrine, i dont think that would have moved the price much.  There have been a few alternatives introduced in the last few years (AuviQ product was recalled) but they all raised the price to similar levels, so so much for capitalism.  To me this is another example of not why regulation doesn't work, but bad/ineffective regulation.

p.s. lets not forget the role of the wholesalers, pharmacy benefit managers and retailers in taking their cuts.  Even if Mylan drops the price it charges wholesalers, that wouldnt help consumers...at least not yet...since the price is set between the payor (insurance, medicare...) and the PBM.  The entire US pharmaceutical industry is guilty of price gouging...to subsidize the much more stringent price controls that the rest of the world's govts. place on drugs. 


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 26, 2016 - 9:42am

SchottFromWyoming wrote:
The EpiPen is a $300 device that delivers $1 worth of medicine; if you're okay with sticking yourself, you can just do that. If you're okay with 1970s tech, there are other autoinjectors available that are still expensive but not nearly as bad as EpiPens. Your Dr. just needs to prescribe "epinephrine .3ml" instead of "EpiPen" and the pharmacist can provide whatever you're most comfortable with. EpiPens are great because I can probably stick you successfully, even though I practice with a dummy device about once every two years. The older ones are more complicated and success on a thrashing patient is less assured. But people who truly have a life-threatening allergy are probably fine with the older generic autoinjector as they're likely to practice with the dummy device at least monthly, about the amount of time experts say is necessary to keep skills up. Others (diabetics?)(pet/animal owners who inject animals routinely) may be just fine with a vial of epinephrine and a standard syringe. Time is of the essence, though, and people aren't likely to carry those everywhere.

But as I understand it, and I'm probably wrong, part of the problem here is patents. This isn't a case of getting a drug thru a lot of trials, it's just a company making hay until their patent expires in 2025. The FDA still has an interest in making sure alternatives/generics are a straight-across equivalent to the brand name product, so new autoinjectors that try to skirt the patent are probably not going to fly. Maybe someone will be able to come up with a better system that doesn't infringe, but they'll just patent that and do the same thing, right?

Kinda.

I used to design medical products. We frequently were given a challenge of getting around a patent to design a competitive product. In ten years of doing it we never failed once.

The patent is an obstacle but it's one that can be overcome. The obstacle you can't overcome without very deep pockets behind you is the FDA. Your new product will need approvals. If it is similar enough to already-approved products (a somewhat subjective call made by the FDA) you get to go thru a much less laborious process called 510(k) where you get to piggyback on the clinical trials of your competitors, otherwise you face years of clinical trials. Very expensive years in which the investment you've made in product R&D is earning you less than nothing.

It's also frozen—no changes until you get approval. Which means new manufacturing technology or better detail design has to wait until the FDA clears your first shot at it. And oy have I seen some horrible design frozen in amber like that. But I digress.

As a teenager I used to carry a two-shot epinephrine syringe with me for a beesting allergy decades before the EpiPen. Never had to use it but I'm sure I could have. The EpiPen is a great advance, but it should be a $25 product. It isn't—when CD players and cars and cell phones (vastly more complex products) are cheaper every day—because the FDA has the manufacturer's back. Once you get past the hoops they make you jump thru you're in the club and big brother will keep the public safe from your competition.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 26, 2016 - 8:36am

 miamizsun wrote:
looks like we've got another Shkreli moment

but why?

does evidence take precedence over politically induced conditioning, ignorance and stupidity?

Don’t Blame Capitalism for Your Pricey EpiPen

 

In South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut, offensive television characters Terrance and Phillip inspire moral indignation within a small Colorado town, sparking a movement of outraged parents who actively organize to censor the actors. Rather than focusing their energy on the individuals in question, the parents launch into an over-the-top campaign (complete with song and dance) targeting the entire country of Canada, where Terrance and Phillip live. Their crusade to “Blame Canada” drives the plotline to equally comedic and ridiculous lengths.

We have a similar short fuse in the United States. Though we don’t launch into full-scale invasions of our quiet northerly neighbors (at least, not yet), many Americans tend to miss the mark when attributing blame for our largest problems and woes. This propensity of impugning ideological strawmen usually places capitalism in the crosshairs of America’s most outraged.

On This Episode of “Blame Capitalism”: The EpiPen

One doesn’t have to look far from today’s headlines to see this pattern. The latest controversy: the price of the EpiPen – Mylan’s famous medical auto-injector that delivers an immediate and measured dose of epinephrine – recently skyrocketed 400%, causing an uproar amongst 3.6 million people who depend upon the prescribed product. For those who live in fear of anaphylactic shock, the cost of living quite literally went up.

 

But surely a new business will take advantage of this public relations debacle, enter the market, and offer a more affordable option, right?

From the time this bill was introduced to the date it was signed by Obama, Mylan’s stock was up nearly 20%.

Unfortunately – and as no surprise to libertarians and free market advocates – federal regulators continue to buffer the padding that surrounds Mylan’s monopoly. Shortly after the Auvi-Q recall, Teva Pharmaceutical Industries pitched a generic version of the EpiPen. However, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) squashed their efforts, citing “major deficiencies” in their application. Teva plans to appeal the decision, but won’t be able to effectively move forward until 2017 at the earliest.

Teva isn’t alone in this struggle. Windgap Medical, a Boston startup, and Adamis, a small biotech firm based in San Diego, have both struggled to bypass FDA’s barriers of entry in the marketplace as well.

If you need further convincing that the FDA impedes the market, consider the following:

  • The average time it takes for a drug to go from the lab to the medicine cabinet is 12 years
  • Only 1 in 5,000 new drugs will make it through the FDA approval
  • Based on the regulatory burden of creating new medicine, the average price tag for research and development for a new compound is $2.6 billion

So, no, Bernie – it isn’t always just a “few dollars” to produce a pharmaceutical product. The price tag of producing that “first pill” is often steep.

An Unironic “Thanks Obama”

Those companies who “paid to play” are providing a textbook example of crony capitalism, not free market capitalism.

Mylan’s monopoly was also bolstered by the White House. In 2013, President Obama signed into law the School Access to Emergency Epinephrine Act. The program incentivizes the school system to stockpile EpiPens by dangling the carrot of federal grant monies in front of financially beleaguered school districts. From the time this bill was introduced to the date it was signed by Obama, Mylan’s stock was up nearly 20%.

But this little piece of legislation pales in comparison to the benefit doled out by the Affordable Care Act. Following Obamacare’s codification, net spending on prescription drugs increased nearly 20%. Meanwhile, the pharmaceutical industry experienced a renaissance era of whirlwind profits: estimates of profits over the next decade range from $10 billion to $35 billion – a hefty door prize for the industry lobbyists who crafted the ACA legislation.

The EpiPen is not a microcosm; the cost of other prescription drugs are also on the rise. A House of Representatives report found that ten different drugs experienced even larger price hikes, starting as low as 420% and as high as 8,000%.

Considering the scope of government intervention in this specific marketplace, rather than blaming the free market for this controversy, a more appropriate response would be “what free market?” And now, lawmakers are ironically “demanding answers” from Mylan. If forced to speak in front of a Congressional panel and asked what inspired this price hike, Bresch and company should be encouraged to hold up a mirror to lawmakers’ faces.

 

 

more



 
The EpiPen is a $300 device that delivers $1 worth of medicine; if you're okay with sticking yourself, you can just do that. If you're okay with 1970s tech, there are other autoinjectors available that are still expensive but not nearly as bad as EpiPens. Your Dr. just needs to prescribe "epinephrine .3ml" instead of "EpiPen" and the pharmacist can provide whatever you're most comfortable with. EpiPens are great because I can probably stick you successfully, even though I practice with a dummy device about once every two years. The older ones are more complicated and success on a thrashing patient is less assured. But people who truly have a life-threatening allergy are probably fine with the older generic autoinjector as they're likely to practice with the dummy device at least monthly, about the amount of time experts say is necessary to keep skills up. Others (diabetics?)(pet/animal owners who inject animals routinely) may be just fine with a vial of epinephrine and a standard syringe. Time is of the essence, though, and people aren't likely to carry those everywhere.

But as I understand it, and I'm probably wrong, part of the problem here is patents. This isn't a case of getting a drug thru a lot of trials, it's just a company making hay until their patent expires in 2025. The FDA still has an interest in making sure alternatives/generics are a straight-across equivalent to the brand name product, so new autoinjectors that try to skirt the patent are probably not going to fly. Maybe someone will be able to come up with a better system that doesn't infringe, but they'll just patent that and do the same thing, right? 
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 26, 2016 - 7:17am

looks like we've got another Shkreli moment

but why?

does evidence take precedence over politically induced conditioning, ignorance and stupidity?

Don’t Blame Capitalism for Your Pricey EpiPen

 

In South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut, offensive television characters Terrance and Phillip inspire moral indignation within a small Colorado town, sparking a movement of outraged parents who actively organize to censor the actors. Rather than focusing their energy on the individuals in question, the parents launch into an over-the-top campaign (complete with song and dance) targeting the entire country of Canada, where Terrance and Phillip live. Their crusade to “Blame Canada” drives the plotline to equally comedic and ridiculous lengths.

We have a similar short fuse in the United States. Though we don’t launch into full-scale invasions of our quiet northerly neighbors (at least, not yet), many Americans tend to miss the mark when attributing blame for our largest problems and woes. This propensity of impugning ideological strawmen usually places capitalism in the crosshairs of America’s most outraged.

On This Episode of “Blame Capitalism”: The EpiPen

One doesn’t have to look far from today’s headlines to see this pattern. The latest controversy: the price of the EpiPen – Mylan’s famous medical auto-injector that delivers an immediate and measured dose of epinephrine – recently skyrocketed 400%, causing an uproar amongst 3.6 million people who depend upon the prescribed product. For those who live in fear of anaphylactic shock, the cost of living quite literally went up.

 

But surely a new business will take advantage of this public relations debacle, enter the market, and offer a more affordable option, right?

From the time this bill was introduced to the date it was signed by Obama, Mylan’s stock was up nearly 20%.

Unfortunately – and as no surprise to libertarians and free market advocates – federal regulators continue to buffer the padding that surrounds Mylan’s monopoly. Shortly after the Auvi-Q recall, Teva Pharmaceutical Industries pitched a generic version of the EpiPen. However, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) squashed their efforts, citing “major deficiencies” in their application. Teva plans to appeal the decision, but won’t be able to effectively move forward until 2017 at the earliest.

Teva isn’t alone in this struggle. Windgap Medical, a Boston startup, and Adamis, a small biotech firm based in San Diego, have both struggled to bypass FDA’s barriers of entry in the marketplace as well.

If you need further convincing that the FDA impedes the market, consider the following:

  • The average time it takes for a drug to go from the lab to the medicine cabinet is 12 years
  • Only 1 in 5,000 new drugs will make it through the FDA approval
  • Based on the regulatory burden of creating new medicine, the average price tag for research and development for a new compound is $2.6 billion

So, no, Bernie – it isn’t always just a “few dollars” to produce a pharmaceutical product. The price tag of producing that “first pill” is often steep.

An Unironic “Thanks Obama”

Those companies who “paid to play” are providing a textbook example of crony capitalism, not free market capitalism.

Mylan’s monopoly was also bolstered by the White House. In 2013, President Obama signed into law the School Access to Emergency Epinephrine Act. The program incentivizes the school system to stockpile EpiPens by dangling the carrot of federal grant monies in front of financially beleaguered school districts. From the time this bill was introduced to the date it was signed by Obama, Mylan’s stock was up nearly 20%.

But this little piece of legislation pales in comparison to the benefit doled out by the Affordable Care Act. Following Obamacare’s codification, net spending on prescription drugs increased nearly 20%. Meanwhile, the pharmaceutical industry experienced a renaissance era of whirlwind profits: estimates of profits over the next decade range from $10 billion to $35 billion – a hefty door prize for the industry lobbyists who crafted the ACA legislation.

The EpiPen is not a microcosm; the cost of other prescription drugs are also on the rise. A House of Representatives report found that ten different drugs experienced even larger price hikes, starting as low as 420% and as high as 8,000%.

Considering the scope of government intervention in this specific marketplace, rather than blaming the free market for this controversy, a more appropriate response would be “what free market?” And now, lawmakers are ironically “demanding answers” from Mylan. If forced to speak in front of a Congressional panel and asked what inspired this price hike, Bresch and company should be encouraged to hold up a mirror to lawmakers’ faces.

 

 

more


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 22, 2015 - 11:37am

 aflanigan wrote:
An interesting admission from a self-proclaimed libertarian.{#Wink}

More of an accusation.

Whenever interventions in an economy create perverse incentives the economy itself seems to get the blame rather than the interventions.
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 22, 2015 - 9:07am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 Steely_D wrote:
Folks are upset with Shkreli, but what he was did with drug prices was merely capitalism: supply/demand/profit.

Would people prefer a different model? Government controlled price limits or other interventions?

This isn't what I've been reading on the hyper conservative pages. It's mostly "free market" this or that. Well, this is what free market looks like.

An anything-but-free market.

 
An interesting admission from a self-proclaimed libertarian.{#Wink}
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 22, 2015 - 6:50am

 miamizsun wrote:
this may help...


 
re. free markets...like many other effective strategies that could alleviate our ills, we are likely beyond the point of no return...that is, unless there is new technology that can disrupt the current infrastructure. 
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 19, 2015 - 6:54am

this may help...



Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2015 - 5:51pm

 Steely_D wrote:
Folks are upset with Shkreli, but what he was did with drug prices was merely capitalism: supply/demand/profit.

Would people prefer a different model? Government controlled price limits or other interventions?

This isn't what I've been reading on the hyper conservative pages. It's mostly "free market" this or that. Well, this is what free market looks like.

An anything-but-free market.
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2015 - 3:18pm

Folks are upset with Shkreli, but what he was did with drug prices was merely capitalism: supply/demand/profit.

Would people prefer a different model? Government controlled price limits or other interventions?

This isn't what I've been reading on the hyper conservative pages. It's mostly "free market" this or that. Well, this is what free market looks like.

 
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Aug 4, 2015 - 7:04pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

The comments, man...
 

Does the curvature of the tv match my field of vision? I don't want to be able to see my wife or children.

A: Trust me mate, as soon as the missus sees the receipt you won't be seeing her or the kids again

 

 
{#Lol}
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 4, 2015 - 6:37pm

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
The comments, man...
 

Does the curvature of the tv match my field of vision? I don't want to be able to see my wife or children.

A: Trust me mate, as soon as the missus sees the receipt you won't be seeing her or the kids again

 
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Aug 4, 2015 - 3:47pm

wtf
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Feb 1, 2015 - 5:23pm




R_P

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Posted: Jan 24, 2015 - 1:32pm

Think of the forces at work in the larger culture that work overtime to situate us within a privatized world of fantasy, spectacle and resentment that is entirely removed from larger social problems and public concerns. For instance, corporate culture, with its unrelenting commercials, carpet-bombs our audio and visual fields with the message that the only viable way to define ourselves is to shop and consume in an orgy of private pursuits. Popular culture traps us in the privatized universe of celebrity culture, urging us to define ourselves through the often empty and trivialized and highly individualized interests of celebrities. Pharmaceutical companies urge us to deal with our problems, largely produced by economic and political forces out of our control, by taking a drug, one that will both chill us out and increase their profit margins. (This has now become an educational measure applied increasingly and indiscriminately to children in our schools.) Pop psychologists urge us to simply think positively, give each other hugs and pull ourselves up by the bootstraps while also insisting that those who confront reality and its mix of complex social issues are, as Chris Hedges points out, defeatists, a negative force that inhibits "our inner essence and power." There is also the culture of militarization, which permeates all aspects of our lives — from our classrooms and the screen culture of reality television to the barrage of violent video games and the blood letting in sports such as popular wrestling — endlessly at work in developing modes of masculinity that celebrate toughness, violence, cruelty, moral indifference and misogyny.

DaveInVA

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Location: In a hovel in effluent Damnville, VA
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 11, 2014 - 6:26pm

"Crapitalism!"


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Posted: Jul 11, 2014 - 12:01pm


via

aflanigan

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Location: At Sea
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Posted: Aug 15, 2013 - 9:24am

 miamizsun wrote:

from M/W

Definition of CAPITALISM

: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

 
So what do we do when the private decisions you allude to end up giving us millenial capitalism, fostering our well-established trend towards economic injustice, inequality, and social insecurity? What's your method for moving us back towards the "peace, justice, mass prosperity and social security" that more and more people enjoyed for a good part of the 20th century? The Constitution doesn't urge the promotion of "the welfare of the individual", but "the general welfare". Ignoring this fundamental principle of our governing document, and focusing solely on the economic rights and privileges of individuals (or corporations), seems rather absurd. You may hope that these individuals will act in a so-called rational way that will benefit everyone, but it seems manifest that expecting this sort of rationality from individuals who control great wealth is hopelessly naive.

Maybe Ford wasn't an ideologically pure lessaiz-faire capitalist, but he seems to have been a pragmatist who accomplished something worthwhile, and helped demonstrate tangibly that economic prosperity is not a zero sum game. Where are the ideologues and pure capitalists who have real world achievements comparable to Ford?


miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
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Posted: Aug 15, 2013 - 5:45am

 aflanigan wrote:
 miamizsun wrote:
apparently bono has had an epiphany of reason and logic (breaking through some preconceived barriers/notions on enabled poverty controlled by politicians via aid) and props to him {#Cheers}

at first i thought it was dambisa moyo that influenced him (and i'm sure she did), but it was george ayittey's speech, book and friendship that sparked bono's realization

Bono: “Capitalism takes more people out of poverty than aid”



I think the validity of this statement depends a great deal on the flavor of capitalism that you are talking about.

Does he mean Henry Ford's version, a.k.a. "stakeholder capitalism?"
In Germany, still a manufacturing and export powerhouse, average hourly pay has risen five times faster since 1985 than in the United States. The secret of Germany’s success, says Klaus Kleinfeld, who ran the German electrical giant Siemens before taking over the American aluminum company Alcoa in 2008, is “the social contract: the willingness of business, labor and political leaders to put aside some of their differences and make agreements in the national interest.”
 
from M/W

Definition of CAPITALISM

: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

imho, any other modification to the voluntary exchange of goods and services really isn't capitalism or free market capitalism

politically corrupting that system (crony capitalism and/or corporatism) and turning it 180 degrees from what it was seems to be the mainstream boogeyman that politicians and most academia love to blame

of course if people have sat through some of those academic courses (or read most mainstream text books) it's no wonder they might believe that politically sponsored/motivated info

fordism? ford or any business owner could pay employees any amount they saw fit and for whatever reason, but that still doesn't mean it was a good business decision

as brilliant as henry ford was, he was still subject to error

and in a case where a business owner based employee pay on being able to purchase the product he/they produced without regard to a healthy sustainable business plan, could be disastrous

what if the product was luxury yachts?

eventually the business owner will run out of employees to purchase his product and he will be subject to the market to decide

i haven't looked into germany's business practices in detail recently, but i imagine the big factors are product and productivity

regards
 

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