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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Braking News Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Post to this Topic
MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 28, 2011 - 9:44am

What do you all think of top gear USA?

I saw part of one the other night, and I'm guessing that the characters would be no replacement for James May for maryte.
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 28, 2011 - 9:40am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

In a regular car you do it in reverse, AKA "A Rockford."
 
 

 
Why did those cops arrest him?  He didn't do that bad on the power slide!

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 22, 2011 - 10:31am

 aflanigan wrote:
Link fixed.

The Swedish testing report I linked to made a similar claim regarding stopping distance in very deep, loose snow and slush.  However, I believe that if you are driving through gravel or snow deep enough that locking the wheels plows them down into the gravel or snow, directional control, not stopping distance, is likely your biggest problem.  My experience driving cars in deep snow (I imagine gravel would be similar) is that the front wheels become rudders, and if you try turning on a "crowned" or tilting road surface, or fall off a road into a rut, once you start sliding in gravity's direction you will find it almost impossible to steer using your "rudders".

A stunt I used to do on my dirtbike: keep the power on and slowly apply the front brake until it locks. You can keep steering in deep gravel or snow.

Traction is not a simple quantity on loose surfaces, and it definitely isn't just a matter of Coulomb friction. Hell, even Coulomb friction isn't simple. Grip is a hugely complicated set of physical processes, involving hydrgen bonds, Van Der Waals forces, covalent and ionic bonds, and surface roughness to name probably too few. Top fuel dragsters are launching at 5 to 6 Gs with no aerodynamic downforce available, a condition you can't achieve with Coulomb friction, accomplished with massive amounts of sliding friction.

To see this manifest go watch a circle track, rally,  or flat track race. Every contact patch is sliding at just about every point on the course. If static friction were the optimum condition these races would be run at a jogging pace. On loose surfaces it just ain't that simple.

Driving on loose surfaces is not a matter of avoiding sliding, it's a matter of managing sliding. Braking isn't a choice between locked wheels and the minimal braking you'd get without sliding, there's a continuum there. It's just one you can't explore with ABS on.

cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 22, 2011 - 9:24am

 kurtster wrote:
I use the e brake so I don't have to hit the pedal too hard.  My experience has been that with very little weight in the rear, the backs will lock up immediately when hitting the pedal hard in the snow.  The goal is to keep the backs from locking up and just slow them down and keep them rotating.  Its a skill developed over many years and miles.  This applies to disc fronts, drum backs, without ABS in snow.  Most braking systems with front discs require very little pressure to make the discs do most of the work.  On dry pavement, the backs don't lock up because of the traction.  This also goes hand in hand with having your best tires on the rear (w/fwd) for driving in snow or rain for that matter to maintain directional control and braking.

Alls I can say is go out and try it in a large parking lot, it works.

I know of the bootleg turnaround.  That's a whole different manuveur.
 
Yeah, that's a recipe for disaster. Drums already 'want' to lock up by the nature of their design, and with poor traction (snow) things only get worse. The e-brake tip is one of those I'll file away for safe-keeping: the opportunities I'll have to use it are pretty rare, but hey.

I guess you could accomplish something similar by messing around with an adjustable proportioning valve, to bias the brake line pressure to the front (?), but that's a lot more trouble than just using the e-brake.

Whenever I get around to hot-rodding my project vehicles, they are all getting four-wheel discs.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 22, 2011 - 9:16am

 aflanigan wrote:
 
Why would you need to apply the emergency brake handle if you are also hitting the brake pedal?  That pedal does operate all four brakes, you know. (at least, unless you've disconnected the rears).

BTW  If you jam on the emergency brake to lock the rear wheels only on snow or ice, the rear end of the car will slowly come up front looking for something to do.  It's the best way to do a 360/spin-erama in a FWD car (get some speed up, throw the wheel over carefully, and hit the brake lever!)

 
I use the e brake so I don't have to hit the pedal too hard.  My experience has been that with very little weight in the rear, the backs will lock up immediately when hitting the pedal hard in the snow.  The goal is to keep the backs from locking up and just slow them down and keep them rotating.  Its a skill developed over many years and miles.  This applies to disc fronts, drum backs, without ABS in snow.  Most braking systems with front discs require very little pressure to make the discs do most of the work.  On dry pavement, the backs don't lock up because of the traction.  This also goes hand in hand with having your best tires on the rear (w/fwd) for driving in snow or rain for that matter to maintain directional control and braking.

Alls I can say is go out and try it in a large parking lot, it works.

I know of the bootleg turnaround.  That's a whole different manuveur.

ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 22, 2011 - 9:04am

 aflanigan wrote:
 
Why would you need to apply the emergency brake handle if you are also hitting the brake pedal?  That pedal does operate all four brakes, you know. (at least, unless you've disconnected the rears).

BTW  If you jam on the emergency brake to lock the rear wheels only on snow or ice, the rear end of the car will slowly come up front looking for something to do.  It's the best way to do a 360/spin-erama in a FWD car (get some speed up, throw the wheel over carefully, and hit the brake lever!)
 
In a regular car you do it in reverse, AKA "A Rockford."
 
 
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 22, 2011 - 8:54am

 kurtster wrote:
Only had ABS on rental cars so I never really put it to any tests.

But living in the land of ice and snow, one technique for safe, sure and controlled stopping in snow is to use the emergency brake in conjunction with the pedal, especially in a front wheel drive car.  It will keep the back end from breaking loose and passing you by in a spin. 

Of course, you need the type that has the lever in the middle and they must be properly adjusted, but you will stop in a straight line and in a hurry if needed.
  
Why would you need to apply the emergency brake handle if you are also hitting the brake pedal?  That pedal does operate all four brakes, you know. (at least, unless you've disconnected the rears).

BTW  If you jam on the emergency brake to lock the rear wheels only on snow or ice, the rear end of the car will slowly come up front looking for something to do.  It's the best way to do a 360/spin-erama in a FWD car (get some speed up, throw the wheel over carefully, and hit the brake lever!)
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 22, 2011 - 8:48am

 Lazy8 wrote:
Not sure what you're arguing with as the link is broken. Ian Law is probably wrong about stopping on snow and ice (certainly about ice, and at least about light accumulations of snow) but there are surfaces that ABS performs poorly on, especially gravel. The mechanism that produces the quickest stops on gravel is locking the wheels, which produces a "bow wave" and dissipates energy thru friction between the rocks over a large volume. Rolling smoothly to a stop will take about 30% farther.
 
Link fixed.

The Swedish testing report I linked to made a similar claim regarding stopping distance in very deep, loose snow and slush.  However, I believe that if you are driving through gravel or snow deep enough that locking the wheels plows them down into the gravel or snow, directional control, not stopping distance, is likely your biggest problem.  My experience driving cars in deep snow (I imagine gravel would be similar) is that the front wheels become rudders, and if you try turning on a "crowned" or tilting road surface, or fall off a road into a rut, once you start sliding in gravity's direction you will find it almost impossible to steer using your "rudders".


cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 22, 2011 - 8:32am

 kurtster wrote:
Only had ABS on rental cars so I never really put it to any tests.

But living in the land of ice and snow, one technique for safe, sure and controlled stopping in snow is to use the emergency brake in conjunction with the pedal, especially in a front wheel drive car.  It will keep the back end from breaking loose and passing you by in a spin. 

Of course, you need the type that has the lever in the middle and they must be properly adjusted, but you will stop in a straight line and in a hurry if needed.

Using the emergency / parking brake is also a good way to avoid getting a speeding ticket.  Your brake lights do not go on when you use it.  When you are speeding in a group, when in doubt, the cop will key on the car that shows brake lights and pull it over.  The brake lights are an admission of guilt.

Using the emergency brake when someone is tailgaiting you will also cause the tailgaiter to back off when all of a sudden they find themselves millimeters from your bumper in an unannounced brake check.  When using this techique you must be ready to tromp on the gas to prevent an actual contact.  Especially effective with tailgaiters who text while driving.  {#Mrgreen}
 
Your body shop man loves you, doesn't he?

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 22, 2011 - 8:08am

Only had ABS on rental cars so I never really put it to any tests.

But living in the land of ice and snow, one technique for safe, sure and controlled stopping in snow is to use the emergency brake in conjunction with the pedal, especially in a front wheel drive car.  It will keep the back end from breaking loose and passing you by in a spin. 

Of course, you need the type that has the lever in the middle and they must be properly adjusted, but you will stop in a straight line and in a hurry if needed.

Using the emergency / parking brake is also a good way to avoid getting a speeding ticket.  Your brake lights do not go on when you use it.  When you are speeding in a group, when in doubt, the cop will key on the car that shows brake lights and pull it over.  The brake lights are an admission of guilt.

Using the emergency brake when someone is tailgaiting you will also cause the tailgaiter to back off when all of a sudden they find themselves millimeters from your bumper in an unannounced brake check.  When using this techique you must be ready to tromp on the gas to prevent an actual contact.  Especially effective with tailgaiters who text while driving.  {#Mrgreen}


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 22, 2011 - 7:54am

 cc_rider wrote:
Sure, ABS is not better in ALL cases, but in the vast majority of situations, ABS is better. But stopping distance is not necessarily the most important factor. ABS allows you to maintain CONTROL while braking, instead of skidding. In a real panic stop, you may not have enough distance to stop, period, with or without ABS. But if you stomp the pedal and start skidding, you lose the ability to steer off to the shoulder. With ABS, you may still be able to steer away from the impact.

But yeah, on gravel or other loose/bumpy surfaces, you're probably screwed regardless. But, on those surfaces, you're less likely to be driving at high speed, so there's that.


{#Roflol} You've never been where I live, have you?

cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 22, 2011 - 7:49am

 Lazy8 wrote:
Not sure what you're arguing with as the link is broken. Ian Law is probably wrong about stopping on snow and ice (certainly about ice, and at least about light accumulations of snow) but there are surfaces that ABS performs poorly on, especially gravel. The mechanism that produces the quickest stops on gravel is locking the wheels, which produces a "bow wave" and dissipates energy thru friction between the rocks over a large volume. Rolling smoothly to a stop will take about 30% farther.
 
Sure, ABS is not better in ALL cases, but in the vast majority of situations, ABS is better. But stopping distance is not necessarily the most important factor. ABS allows you to maintain CONTROL while braking, instead of skidding. In a real panic stop, you may not have enough distance to stop, period, with or without ABS. But if you stomp the pedal and start skidding, you lose the ability to steer off to the shoulder. With ABS, you may still be able to steer away from the impact.

But yeah, on gravel or other loose/bumpy surfaces, you're probably screwed regardless. But, on those surfaces, you're less likely to be driving at high speed, so there's that.

ptooey

ptooey Avatar

Location: right behind you. no, over there.
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 22, 2011 - 7:47am

 oldslabsides wrote:

Yes, but what's his position on headlight alignment as the primary threat to Western Civilization?
 
Misaligned Headlights: Not Even Once

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Nov 22, 2011 - 7:45am

 aflanigan wrote:
NEWS FLASH:  Automotive writer Ian Law doesn't know the first thing about Newtonian mechanics, and has no business writing about automotive technical issues.

ABS brakes can add to stopping distances

(Oh, really?)


Here is a fact that catches a lot of motorists by surprise: if the vehicle we are driving is equipped with ABS brakes, our stopping distances on ice and snow will be longer than if our vehicle did not have ABS brakes. In older vehicles and less expensive vehicles, ABS can lengthen our stopping distances by up to 50 per cent compared to non-ABS.


(The above statement is demonstrably false.  The reason:  the coefficient of static friction is higher than the coefficient of kinetic friction)

Static and Kinetic Friction

Some common values of coefficients of kinetic and static friction (from Ben Townsend's website):

Surfaces
µ (static)µ (kinetic)
Steel on steel
0.740.57
Glass on glass
0.940.40
Metal on Metal (lubricated)
0.150.06
Ice on ice
0.100.03
Teflon on Teflon
0.040.04
Tire on concrete
1.000.80
Tire on wet road
0.600.40
Tire on snow
0.300.20

These values are approximate.


Car and Driver set out to test the effectiveness of ABS when it first became widely available on passenger vehicles.  The most effective way to stop a car, we know from physics, is to apply the brakes until lockup is imminent.  Very few drivers are capable of doing this consistently.  C&D corralled expert drivers, including race car drivers, and put them behind the wheel of cars equipped with disconnectable ABS in an attempt to beat or at least duplicate stopping distances produced using ABS.  I don't think they succeeded.  Their results have been duplicated.  See

Here

and Here

ABS produces shorter stopping distances regardless of the surface, (dry pavement, wet pavement, snow, ice, vaseline, etc.) because, although it does not achieve optimum braking, it gets closer than human drivers reliably can.  Humans simply aren't capable of consistently braking at the point of lock-up at different speeds on different surfaces and in different vehicles.  If you're on a car without ABS and need to stop in a straight path, your shortest stopping distance on average is produced by mashing on the brakes.  In very slippery conditions, or when you need to turn and brake, you need to pump the pedal to allow some rolling for directional control (this is the technique everyone was advised to use before ABS, a sort of crude version of what ABS does).

Ian Law, please stick to Drivers' Ed.

 
Yes, but what's his position on headlight alignment as the primary threat to Western Civilization?

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 22, 2011 - 7:42am

 aflanigan wrote:
NEWS FLASH:  Automotive writer Ian Law doesn't know the first thing about Newtonian mechanics, and has no business writing about automotive technical issues.

ABS brakes can add to stopping distances 

Not sure what you're arguing with as the link is broken. Ian Law is probably wrong about stopping on snow and ice (certainly about ice, and at least about light accumulations of snow) but there are surfaces that ABS performs poorly on, especially gravel. The mechanism that produces the quickest stops on gravel is locking the wheels, which produces a "bow wave" and dissipates energy thru friction between the rocks over a large volume. Rolling smoothly to a stop will take about 30% farther.

aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 21, 2011 - 2:02pm

NEWS FLASH:  Automotive writer Ian Law doesn't know the first thing about Newtonian mechanics, and has no business writing about automotive technical issues.

ABS brakes can add to stopping distances

(Oh, really?)


Here is a fact that catches a lot of motorists by surprise: if the vehicle we are driving is equipped with ABS brakes, our stopping distances on ice and snow will be longer than if our vehicle did not have ABS brakes. In older vehicles and less expensive vehicles, ABS can lengthen our stopping distances by up to 50 per cent compared to non-ABS.


(The above statement is demonstrably false.  The reason:  the coefficient of static friction is higher than the coefficient of kinetic friction)

Static and Kinetic Friction

Some common values of coefficients of kinetic and static friction (from Ben Townsend's website):

Surfaces
µ (static)µ (kinetic)
Steel on steel
0.740.57
Glass on glass
0.940.40
Metal on Metal (lubricated)
0.150.06
Ice on ice
0.100.03
Teflon on Teflon
0.040.04
Tire on concrete
1.000.80
Tire on wet road
0.600.40
Tire on snow
0.300.20

These values are approximate.


Car and Driver set out to test the effectiveness of ABS when it first became widely available on passenger vehicles.  The most effective way to stop a car, we know from physics, is to apply the brakes until lockup is imminent.  Very few drivers are capable of doing this consistently.  C&D corralled expert drivers, including race car drivers, and put them behind the wheel of cars equipped with disconnectable ABS in an attempt to beat or at least duplicate stopping distances produced using ABS.  I don't think they succeeded.  Their results have been duplicated.  See

Here

and Here

ABS produces shorter stopping distances regardless of the surface, (dry pavement, wet pavement, snow, ice, vaseline, etc.) because, although it does not achieve optimum braking, it gets closer than human drivers reliably can.  Humans simply aren't capable of consistently braking at the point of lock-up at different speeds on different surfaces and in different vehicles.  If you're on a car without ABS and need to stop in a straight path, your shortest stopping distance on average is produced by mashing on the brakes.  In very slippery conditions, or when you need to turn and brake, you need to pump the pedal to allow some rolling for directional control (this is the technique everyone was advised to use before ABS, a sort of crude version of what ABS does).

Ian Law, please stick to Drivers' Ed.


aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 10, 2011 - 11:19am

Husqvarna recalls TuffTorq tractors because brakes can fail
JustineFromWyomi...

JustineFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Teetering on the edge of Avenue D
Gender: Female


Posted: Mar 12, 2011 - 7:29pm


Umberdog

Umberdog Avatar

Location: In my body.
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 11, 2011 - 3:08pm

This news is broken.
GeneP59

GeneP59 Avatar

Location: On the edge of tomorrow looking back at yesterday.
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 11, 2011 - 2:07pm

 Steve wrote:

But you do know how to fix brakes, right?


 
Bend me some metal, man. {#High-five}
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