[ ]   [ ]   [ ]                        [ ]      [ ]   [ ]

Ukraine - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Mar 28, 2024 - 1:30am
 
The Obituary Page - ScottFromWyoming - Mar 27, 2024 - 10:58pm
 
Breaking News - Lazy8 - Mar 27, 2024 - 10:55pm
 
March 2024 Photo Theme - Many - KurtfromLaQuinta - Mar 27, 2024 - 8:52pm
 
USA! USA! USA! - R_P - Mar 27, 2024 - 7:40pm
 
Trump - kurtster - Mar 27, 2024 - 7:38pm
 
Little known information...maybe even facts - haresfur - Mar 27, 2024 - 6:21pm
 
Live Music - oldviolin - Mar 27, 2024 - 5:08pm
 
RightWingNutZ - R_P - Mar 27, 2024 - 3:48pm
 
Wordle - daily game - JrzyTmata - Mar 27, 2024 - 3:04pm
 
Lyrics that strike a chord today... - miamizsun - Mar 27, 2024 - 2:44pm
 
NY Times Strands - rgio - Mar 27, 2024 - 2:14pm
 
Please Don't Post Here - Red_Dragon - Mar 27, 2024 - 11:02am
 
NYTimes Connections - geoff_morphini - Mar 27, 2024 - 8:23am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - GeneP59 - Mar 27, 2024 - 7:51am
 
Today in History - DaveInSaoMiguel - Mar 27, 2024 - 3:17am
 
Motivational Office Cliches... - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Mar 26, 2024 - 10:20pm
 
(Big) Media Watch - Red_Dragon - Mar 26, 2024 - 6:18pm
 
YouTube: Music-Videos - miamizsun - Mar 26, 2024 - 4:10pm
 
Israel - R_P - Mar 26, 2024 - 12:24pm
 
Photos you have taken of your walks or hikes. - Steely_D - Mar 26, 2024 - 12:04pm
 
Business as Usual - black321 - Mar 26, 2024 - 12:02pm
 
Solar / Wind / Geothermal / Efficiency Energy - islander - Mar 26, 2024 - 8:00am
 
Is there any DOG news out there? - Beez - Mar 26, 2024 - 7:24am
 
Food - Steely_D - Mar 26, 2024 - 1:41am
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - Red_Dragon - Mar 25, 2024 - 7:30pm
 
Vinyl Only Spin List - kurtster - Mar 25, 2024 - 6:56pm
 
Derplahoma! - Red_Dragon - Mar 25, 2024 - 3:48pm
 
Frequent drop outs (The Netherlands) - kingen - Mar 25, 2024 - 2:43pm
 
China - R_P - Mar 25, 2024 - 11:59am
 
Musky Mythology - R_P - Mar 25, 2024 - 11:20am
 
Play history seems to indicate that I"m streaming 24/7, b... - jarro - Mar 25, 2024 - 10:44am
 
April 8th Partial Solar Eclipse - Coaxial - Mar 24, 2024 - 6:22pm
 
New Music - KurtfromLaQuinta - Mar 24, 2024 - 5:07pm
 
Dental Floss Tycoons, and other Montana Myths, Facts, and... - Red_Dragon - Mar 24, 2024 - 12:32pm
 
Orbiting Earth - oldviolin - Mar 24, 2024 - 9:42am
 
Basketball - oldviolin - Mar 23, 2024 - 2:50pm
 
What Makes You Laugh? - ScottFromWyoming - Mar 23, 2024 - 1:54pm
 
Joe Biden - kurtster - Mar 23, 2024 - 11:17am
 
Technical Streaming Note for Nerdy RP DIYers - sjagminas1 - Mar 23, 2024 - 10:16am
 
Museum Of Bad Album Covers - Proclivities - Mar 23, 2024 - 8:56am
 
Other Medical Stuff - Antigone - Mar 22, 2024 - 3:06pm
 
Country Up The Bumpkin - oldviolin - Mar 22, 2024 - 11:06am
 
Pernicious Pious Proclivities Particularized Prodigiously - Red_Dragon - Mar 22, 2024 - 9:17am
 
Memorials - Remembering Our Loved Ones - Bill_J - Mar 21, 2024 - 8:54pm
 
Talk Behind Their Backs Forum - VV - Mar 21, 2024 - 2:29pm
 
Can you afford to retire? - DaveInSaoMiguel - Mar 21, 2024 - 2:15pm
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - blt - Mar 21, 2024 - 12:49pm
 
Mixtape Culture Club - KurtfromLaQuinta - Mar 21, 2024 - 11:10am
 
Baseball, anyone? - ScottFromWyoming - Mar 21, 2024 - 7:11am
 
What Did You See Today? - KurtfromLaQuinta - Mar 20, 2024 - 5:13pm
 
Annoying stuff. not things that piss you off, just annoyi... - ScottFromWyoming - Mar 20, 2024 - 4:31pm
 
Upcoming concerts or shows you can't wait to see - Antigone - Mar 20, 2024 - 3:10pm
 
Russia - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Mar 20, 2024 - 11:44am
 
Photography Forum - Your Own Photos - Proclivities - Mar 20, 2024 - 9:33am
 
2024 Elections! - Lazy8 - Mar 20, 2024 - 7:26am
 
Economix - R_P - Mar 19, 2024 - 4:36pm
 
Name My Band - DaveInSaoMiguel - Mar 19, 2024 - 10:53am
 
RP automation with iOS Shortcuts App - jarro - Mar 19, 2024 - 10:15am
 
Delicacies: a..k.a.. the Gross Food forum - DaveInSaoMiguel - Mar 19, 2024 - 10:12am
 
Irony 101 - Proclivities - Mar 19, 2024 - 6:02am
 
New Forum Member on "What Makes RP Great" - miamizsun - Mar 19, 2024 - 4:38am
 
Cache stopped working on old Android Phone - Eisenwindel - Mar 19, 2024 - 1:50am
 
Cryptic Posts - Leave Them Guessing - Bill_J - Mar 18, 2024 - 8:23pm
 
Damn Dinosaurs! - oldviolin - Mar 18, 2024 - 8:16pm
 
One Partying State - Wyoming News - geoff_morphini - Mar 18, 2024 - 3:58pm
 
Great guitar faces - skyguy - Mar 18, 2024 - 3:33pm
 
Despots, dictators and war criminals - R_P - Mar 18, 2024 - 12:41pm
 
Uploading Music - dischuckin - Mar 18, 2024 - 11:55am
 
Media Matters - thisbody - Mar 18, 2024 - 10:03am
 
NASA & other news from space - miamizsun - Mar 18, 2024 - 4:13am
 
MEALTICKET - drinpt - Mar 17, 2024 - 4:13am
 
What makes you smile? - Steely_D - Mar 16, 2024 - 7:31pm
 
Apple Computer - GeneP59 - Mar 16, 2024 - 12:02pm
 
Environment - R_P - Mar 16, 2024 - 11:18am
 
Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Government Shutdown Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 12, 13, 14  Next
Post to this Topic
arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 1:39pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

if theirs is any indication, I'd say it's not much of an argument.
  The money that was expected to be realized through investments in the market failed to materialize, yet GM is contractually obligated to it's workers. For the moment, anyway.


beamends

beamends Avatar



Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 1:38pm

 cc_rider wrote:

I absolutely believe that is true. 'Management' in the larger sense has no one to blame but themselves for the rise of unions. Conversely, unions have no one to blame but themselves for becoming scapegoats for management ire. It's a dysfunctional relationship, and there is plenty of blame to go around.
 
{#Yes}

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 1:34pm

 arighter2 wrote:
Arguably, GM got screwed because of the under performance of their pension funds.

 
if theirs is any indication, I'd say it's not much of an argument.

arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 1:26pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

My ex-inlaws both worked at the GM plant that used to be in this town.  They were both proud union members.  They were both paid an outrageous wage for menial tasks.  They also received terrific benefits and now live on retirements that afford them a very comfortable old age.  I don't begrudge them any of that, but the fact remains that a company cannot pay people upwards of $70 per hour in wages and benefits - plus a retirement fit for a king - to put in a screw or two or connect a wiring harness.
  Arguably, GM got screwed because of the under performance of their pension funds.


cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 1:23pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
No, I don't exonerate management. As William Coors famously said, "Unions are a result of poor management."
 
I absolutely believe that is true. 'Management' in the larger sense has no one to blame but themselves for the rise of unions. Conversely, unions have no one to blame but themselves for becoming scapegoats for management ire. It's a dysfunctional relationship, and there is plenty of blame to go around.

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 1:13pm

 arighter2 wrote:

60k? Now you're just being absurd. Pretty sure most Wal-Mart workers make less than 17k annually, gross.
 
My ex-inlaws both worked at the GM plant that used to be in this town.  They were both proud union members.  They were both paid an outrageous wage for menial tasks.  They also received terrific benefits and now live on retirements that afford them a very comfortable old age.  I don't begrudge them any of that, but the fact remains that a company cannot pay people upwards of $70 per hour in wages and benefits - plus a retirement fit for a king - to put in a screw or two or connect a wiring harness.

arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 1:08pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
 arighter2 wrote:
So you assume the drop off in Detroit quality is union inefficiency, exonerating management? The drop in education is alarming, to be sure, but how much of that is teacher inefficiency, and how much a factor of the extant culture? Bear in mind, the best students abroad still flock here for post secondary work.

A stereotype may have an element of truth and remain misleading.

You are right that unionization is a disadvantage in the modern system, but given unsustainable systemic performance, are you sure the flaw is in the unions, and not inherent to the system?  Unions would be superfluous if management paid a living wage. Can we really afford subsidizing labor to the tune of 5k EIC per Wal-martish worker?

No, I don't exonerate management. As William Coors famously said, "Unions are a result of poor management."

No, we can't afford to subsidize people. We also can't afford to pay store clerks $60K a year. Their work isn't worth that, and demanding higher and higher wages for the same work is a recipe for non-competitiveness.
 
60k? Now you're just being absurd. Pretty sure most Wal-Mart workers make less than 17k annually, gross.

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 12:40pm

 arighter2 wrote:
So you assume the drop off in Detroit quality is union inefficiency, exonerating management? The drop in education is alarming, to be sure, but how much of that is teacher inefficiency, and how much a factor of the extant culture? Bear in mind, the best students abroad still flock here for post secondary work.

A stereotype may have an element of truth and remain misleading.

You are right that unionization is a disadvantage in the modern system, but given unsustainable systemic performance, are you sure the flaw is in the unions, and not inherent to the system?  Unions would be superfluous if management paid a living wage. Can we really afford subsidizing labor to the tune of 5k EIC per Wal-martish worker?

No, I don't exonerate management. As William Coors famously said, "Unions are a result of poor management."

No, we can't afford to subsidize people. We also can't afford to pay store clerks $60K a year. Their work isn't worth that, and demanding higher and higher wages for the same work is a recipe for non-competitiveness.

Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 12:31pm

 arighter2 wrote:

So you assume the drop off in Detroit quality is union inefficiency, exonerating management? The drop in education is alarming, to be sure, but how much of that is teacher inefficiency, and how much a factor of the extant culture? Bear in mind, the best students abroad still flock here for post secondary work.

A stereotype may have an element of truth and remain misleading.

 
It's always the fault of labor - Fox News, Neal Boortz, and Rush Limbaugh told me so.


arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 12:13pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
 arighter2 wrote:
I've worked in several union shops and also a lot of non union shops. In my opinion the quality of work in the union shops was superior, but hey, by all means, let's all trash the unions based on stereotypes. {#Grumpy}

Like the legendary quality of the American auto industry. The stellar performance of American schools.

Stereotypes exist because they have an element of truth to them. I've worked in both as well; when the work is exactly the same every day and the technology never changes and the skill required is minimal...sure, whatever. In the real world a union shop can't keep up—rigid work rules, inflexible policies and structural hostility to change of any kind leaves them stuck at the last contract while competitors keep moving.

We've been talking about teacher's unions, and if you want to defend the status quo keep in mind that that includes defending this.

Go ahead. Tell us how great this is for students, for school systems, and how well it motivates a good teacher to stay and a bad teacher to find something else to do.

Yes, it's an extreme case—but that's a matter of degree, not of kind.
 
So you assume the drop off in Detroit quality is union inefficiency, exonerating management? The drop in education is alarming, to be sure, but how much of that is teacher inefficiency, and how much a factor of the extant culture? Bear in mind, the best students abroad still flock here for post secondary work.

A stereotype may have an element of truth and remain misleading.

You are right that unionization is a disadvantage in the modern system, but given unsustainable systemic performance, are you sure the flaw is in the unions, and not inherent to the system?  Unions would be superfluous if management paid a living wage. Can we really afford subsidizing labor to the tune of 5k EIC per Wal-martish worker?

beamends

beamends Avatar



Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 11:56am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 arighter2 wrote:
I've worked in several union shops and also a lot of non union shops. In my opinion the quality of work in the union shops was superior, but hey, by all means, let's all trash the unions based on stereotypes. {#Grumpy}

Like the legendary quality of the American auto industry. The stellar performance of American schools.

Stereotypes exist because they have an element of truth to them. I've worked in both as well; when the work is exactly the same every day and the technology never changes and the skill required is minimal...sure, whatever. In the real world a union shop can't keep up—rigid work rules, inflexible policies and structural hostility to change of any kind leaves them stuck at the last contract while competitors keep moving.

We've been talking about teacher's unions, and if you want to defend the status quo keep in mind that that includes defending this.

Go ahead. Tell us how great this is for students, for school systems, and how well it motivates a good teacher to stay and a bad teacher to find something else to do.

Yes, it's an extreme case—but that's a matter of degree, not of kind.
 
Serious question - is there no professional standards body for teachers over there? We have a set up similar to the General Medical Council for doctors, now 'independent', formerly part of the Dept. of Education, and Ofsted for the schools (their inspections identify weak teachers so they can be offered support, or in the worst cases, re-training).

(former member)

(former member) Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 11:55am

 islander wrote:
Security may be higher within a union, but it is an artificial construct that inherently weakens the company in the market. If the company fails, so does your security (unless you have political benefactors to prop you up, but generally..). 
 
Which is what bothers me so much when striking workers talk smack about their own company. In the medical setting, it was unfortunately common to see striking nurses carry pickets saying "the care here sucks" and then demand higher wages. It made no sense.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 11:49am

 arighter2 wrote:
I've worked in several union shops and also a lot of non union shops. In my opinion the quality of work in the union shops was superior, but hey, by all means, let's all trash the unions based on stereotypes. {#Grumpy}

Like the legendary quality of the American auto industry. The stellar performance of American schools.

Stereotypes exist because they have an element of truth to them. I've worked in both as well; when the work is exactly the same every day and the technology never changes and the skill required is minimal...sure, whatever. In the real world a union shop can't keep up—rigid work rules, inflexible policies and structural hostility to change of any kind leaves them stuck at the last contract while competitors keep moving.

We've been talking about teacher's unions, and if you want to defend the status quo keep in mind that that includes defending this.

Go ahead. Tell us how great this is for students, for school systems, and how well it motivates a good teacher to stay and a bad teacher to find something else to do.

Yes, it's an extreme case—but that's a matter of degree, not of kind.

islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 11:47am

 arighter2 wrote:

That's true, and I have seen that, but based on my observation such people are a minority, and the slack is more than made up by others. In general, people will work harder if they feel the work is valued. Salary and security play a role in that.
 
It depends a lot on how you look at things. I don't believe there is an inherent managment vs. labor rift. I think if you are above average, your salary will reflect that. Security may be higher within a union, but it is an artificial construct that inherently weekens the company in the market. If the company fails, so does your security (unless you have political benefactors to prop you up, but generally..). My employees work hard for their own rewards, and by doing so they strengthen the company (in which they have an ownership stake as well as an employment opportunity), and therefor their own security.  They take pride in their work because they are professionals, pay and security flow from that, not the other way around.
arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 11:47am

 black321 wrote:


I guess it depends on the individual...but there's more moral hazard risk associated with unions.

 
As I said elsewhere, there are offsetting factors. Can the same be said for bank executives? The difference is in the nature of the incentive.

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 11:47am

 arighter2 wrote:

That's true, and I have seen that, but based on my observation such people are a minority, and the slack is more than made up by others. In general, people will work harder if they feel the work is valued. Salary and security play a role in that.
  thats always true.  But I think unions and libertarians ignore some basic human qualities that are not beneficial: sloth and greed, respectively. 


cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 11:44am

 islander wrote:
To be clear, I have worked in both union and non-union shops and I currently manage both union and non-union workers (indirectly but as a customer). The issue I have is not with the work (best welder I've ever seen is a union pipe fitter on my job right now), but with the way things get done.  To me, the incentive/reward system is not well structured in a union environment.

I personally don't care how people choose to set up their employment contracts. In fact, I have stated that it would be easier for me in some respects if my direct crew were union. But it doesn't suit their personalities, nor the way we work here. I can't imagine one of my guys saying "that's not in my job description", and I like it that way.
 
The whole thing is frustrating, because unions and management typically have an adversarial relationship, which does not serve anyone's interests. In some ways unions provide another layer of management, which is not automatically a bad thing. Hear me out. What if management could go to the union and say "we need two welders: one master welder and one apprentice." The union goes through its rolls and checks to see who is qualified (i.e. up to union standards) and available. Which is exactly what a manager would do, right? Conversely, let's say a company folds, for whatever reason. The union could provide employment resources, like those rolls mentioned earlier.

I believe it is possible for unions and management to work TOGETHER, rather than always at each other's throats. In many cases, both management and the union are not set up for that sort of cooperation though: it's all about getting concessions from the other side. But it's like so many other aspects of this big blue ball: there are no sides, there is really only US.

arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 11:40am

 islander wrote:

It's also easier to slack off when it's difficult and complicated to be disciplined and you will get the same pay and bonuses regardless. 

 
That's true, and I have seen that, but based on my observation such people are a minority, and the slack is more than made up by others. In general, people will work harder if they feel the work is valued. Salary and security play a role in that.

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 11:35am

 arighter2 wrote:

Nonsense. It's easier to take pride in your work when you're backed by some security.
 

I guess it depends on the individual...but there's more moral hazard risk associated with unions.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 11:34am

 arighter2 wrote:

Nonsense. It's easier to take pride in your work when you're backed by some security.
 
It's also easier to slack off when it's difficult and complicated to be disciplined and you will get the same pay and bonuses regardless. 
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 12, 13, 14  Next