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steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 5:50am

 sirdroseph wrote:
. . . I am on standby.

I have heard others say this. How long would you wait to determine whether the vaccine is sufficiently safe and effective? I ask because it seems that adverse side effects — should they occur — could take years to surface. What are you monitoring while you are waiting?

Yes, it does appear you are in a rather unique position in terms of very limited contact with others.


sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 5:14am

 steeler wrote:
 sirdroseph wrote:

A bit more advice for those who wish to actually make a difference in persuading others is to quit using the term antivaxxer.  I know there are a lot of antivaxxer's out there, but the majority of those who have trepidation for taking these particular vaccines for this particular virus at this particular time do not fall into this category.  Lumping all those you do not agree with into these false terms is another guarantee you will either be met with anger or completely ignored.  As lazy pointed out, condescension and bullying do not produce results quite the contrary they will only harden Pharoah's heart and back people more into a corner. You have to take into account the overwhelming human desire to spite someone who is being an asshole.


Fair enough. What are your reasons for not getting the vaccine? Are you persuadable on the issue? If so, what would persuade you?
 
I have already explained this and just because I am not getting the vaccine today or possibly even next week does not mean I am not getting it at all.  I am waiting to see how this all shakes out in real life seeing how so many have been so wrong so often throughout this whole ordeal.  Actually watch the last video I posted in the covid thread and Eric Weinstein articulated it perfectly in line with how I feel only difference is he rolled the dice with the J&J and I am still holding off a bit to see how the vaccines respond in our bodies and to the virus in general.  Everyone's situation is unique and I am quite blessed to be able to work from home as long as I want to seeing how my company has the luxury to be able to offer voluntary back to office with vaccine proof or just continue to stay home until we decide how we want to handle this event.  In addition to that both my wife and I rarely leave our property even before this all happened because this is our homesteading lifestyle and the outside world offers us very little that we desire so why go anywhere?  Basically we were already built for this and have not had to alter our lives at all sans wearing a mask when going on grocery store and feed supply runs of which only I do.  My wife has been blessed to never have the need to leave the property and has no plans to do so.  So there is no persuading me either way, I am on standby.{#Meditate}
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 4:37am

 sirdroseph wrote:

A bit more advice for those who wish to actually make a difference in persuading others is to quit using the term antivaxxer.  I know there are a lot of antivaxxer's out there, but the majority of those who have trepidation for taking these particular vaccines for this particular virus at this particular time do not fall into this category.  Lumping all those you do not agree with into these false terms is another guarantee you will either be met with anger or completely ignored.  As lazy pointed out, condescension and bullying do not produce results quite the contrary they will only harden Pharoah's heart and back people more into a corner. You have to take into account the overwhelming human desire to spite someone who is being an asshole.


Fair enough. What are your reasons for not getting the vaccine? Are you persuadable on the issue? If so, what would persuade you?

sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2021 - 4:00am

A bit more advice for those who wish to actually make a difference in persuading others is to quit using the term antivaxxer.  I know there are a lot of antivaxxer's out there, but the majority of those who have trepidation for taking these particular vaccines for this particular virus at this particular time do not fall into this category.  Lumping all those you do not agree with into these false terms is another guarantee you will either be met with anger or completely ignored.  As lazy pointed out, condescension and bullying do not produce results quite the contrary they will only harden Pharoah's heart and back people more into a corner. You have to take into account the overwhelming human desire to spite someone who is being an asshole.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 11, 2021 - 10:36pm

 steeler wrote:
  I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take this anymore!
 
so, what's making you mad?
(NoEnz reaching out to people in need)
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 11, 2021 - 10:18pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
people are hurting. I get it. but let's look at this guy's narrative.. he's an antivaxer, anti-Scottish-independence activist, British nationalist (probably a Brexiteer though I haven't checked).. if anyone is "exploiting the emergency to gain control over more aspects of our lives" this bloke is one of them, stoking fear and mistrust of government and authority to push his political agenda.  Then when you factor in his oh-so-nostaligic life-used-to-be-better bullshit, flowers in a glass vase and all, the kind of nostalgic hankering for days of glory past, or at least intimations of it, then I'm riled.

None of which makes him wrong.
Don't worry, you are not the least like this guy. You have a sharp brain for one thing and more than an ounce of self-reflection. You are also eminently fair. I don't think this guy is. He has an agenda to push and he's using any tool at his disposal, including transparent attempts to exploit people's suffering, hurt and confusion.

Pause for a moment and consider how much is cause and how much is effect. I don't know this guy. He may be a complete dick, charming accent aside, but people being pushed around (and people, regardless of whether they advocate for pushing around or not are being pushed around) are going to push back. Lash out. Come up with irrational justifications for resisting being pushed around. We can disagree with that backlash and those irrational justifications, the intellectual straw-grasping that goes on here—and I think we both do—but that isn't going to get this guy or anybody who thinks like him to go get a jab. And the more of him there are the less safe we all are. He needs to be convinced. That isn't going to happen via condescension or belittling, as guilty as I am of it. We need to engage with him and change his mind, and a lot more minds like his. Bellowing orders isn't working. What else you got?
 
(just as an aside, three weeks ago our resident anti-vaxxer and I shared a moment. We were both leaning out our top windows (3 story terrace housing) looking at a supercell approach at sunset. It was the most awesome scene and we were just two pretty insignificant players before the force of nature. We get along fine.)

ok, I'll take the charge of condescension and belittling and wear it. But let's think for a moment of the big picture. We live in the most abundant society that has ever existed. We have the most freedoms and protections that have ever existed. But people are scared shitless. They fear imaginary demons, pedophile rings running Washington who eat children, evil cabals who meet and make all the big decisions, billionaires who want to geotag us and make us dependent on expensive vaccines so that they can rule the world.. etc. 

Maybe the flood of information, the complexity of modern society, the breakdown of community, the sheer insignificance of one soapbox viewpoint amidst the billions of others, the triviality and fleetingness of internet fame... all of this.. has only served to make people feel like their roots are being washed out from under them. And without shared values, without a commonality, people feel pretty scared and lost. 

I understand all that. Moreover, civil society hangs by a silken thread. That thread is not our rules and regulations. It is not our institutions or our traditions. That thread is solely an intangible and shifting general consensus that we are somehow in this together and are all better off when we cooperate with each other. 

When A meets B, when the scared and rootless start eroding that general consensus in an attempt to remedy their fears by destroying the very thing holding things together I get kind of angry. 

edit: and, yes, scared for our future.


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Aug 11, 2021 - 3:10pm

 steeler wrote:
  I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take this anymore!

Have a
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Aug 11, 2021 - 3:02pm

  I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take this anymore!
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 11, 2021 - 2:26pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
people are hurting. I get it. but let's look at this guy's narrative.. he's an antivaxer, anti-Scottish-independence activist, British nationalist (probably a Brexiteer though I haven't checked).. if anyone is "exploiting the emergency to gain control over more aspects of our lives" this bloke is one of them, stoking fear and mistrust of government and authority to push his political agenda. 

Then when you factor in his oh-so-nostaligic life-used-to-be-better bullshit, flowers in a glass vase and all, the kind of nostalgic hankering for days of glory past, or at least intimations of it, then I'm riled.

None of which makes him wrong.
Don't worry, you are not the least like this guy. You have a sharp brain for one thing and more than an ounce of self-reflection. You are also eminently fair. I don't think this guy is. He has an agenda to push and he's using any tool at his disposal, including transparent attempts to exploit people's suffering, hurt and confusion.

Pause for a moment and consider how much is cause and how much is effect.

I don't know this guy. He may be a complete dick, charming accent aside, but people being pushed around (and people, regardless of whether they advocate for pushing around or not are being pushed around) are going to push back. Lash out. Come up with irrational justifications for resisting being pushed around.

We can disagree with that backlash and those irrational justifications, the intellectual straw-grasping that goes on here—and I think we both do—but that isn't going to get this guy or anybody who thinks like him to go get a jab. And the more of him there are the less safe we all are.

He needs to be convinced. That isn't going to happen via condescension or belittling, as guilty as I am of it. We need to engage with him and change his mind, and a lot more minds like his.

Bellowing orders isn't working. What else you got?
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 11, 2021 - 11:47am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


Well that's a bad idea. The internet is full of crazies.

  

 Lazy8 wrote:

There is more than one way to suffer.

I hear this guy and he sounds like sooo many people I know. On a bad day he sounds like me.

People who are seriously online might, like you, hear a whining child. Get over it, go get your social interactions thru a glowing screen like a modern person and buck up. People who need real human contact hear the prisoner in the next cell.

I straddle those worlds, those points of view. I started working from home 15 years ago, and I've been using the internet as a social tool—my workplace watercooler—since 1989. I've even met some of those who may, against their better judgement, be reading this.

I'm also deeply embedded in my local community—in its arts, humanitarian, and political realms—and the endless lockdowns have been enormously frustrating. Not just on a personal level—my dog do I miss dancing!—but on professional levels (couldn't travel for a year) and political levels.

The latter has been maybe the most frustrating of all. We couldn't even hold a campaign rally, and my party gets zero interest from the press. The only way to get anyone's attention is word of mouth or an in-person event, where people can meet someone whose politics they've only been exposed to in caricature and find out how inaccurate the picture they've been shown is.

It has also empowered conspiracist factions who have a ready explanation for the isolation and frustration: it's intentional. It's not control for the sake of safety, it's control for the sake of control.

And they have a point. There are people exploiting the emergency to gain control over more aspects of our lives. What many of them miss is that doesn't mean the emergency is fake. Those voices are, more and more, getting silenced and suppressed on social media; that means they retreat into their bubbles and the rest of us have fewer and fewer ways to change their minds.

I wish people of both camps—the seriously online and the face-to-face—would have a lot more compassion for each other. Make an effort to create that human contact for those who can't get it thru a screen; find ways for businesses that need human interaction to stay afloat. Meaningful ways, not a check in the mail. Don't be so goddamned smug that you have what you need, reach out to those who don't. Don't delegate that task to a faceless government ill-suited to the task, go help your neighbor.

And don't use the pandemic as an excuse to shield yourself from your duty to those around you. You may need them someday.


people are hurting. I get it. but let's look at this guy's narrative.. he's an antivaxer, anti-Scottish-independence activist, British nationalist (probably a Brexiteer though I haven't checked).. if anyone is "exploiting the emergency to gain control over more aspects of our lives" this bloke is one of them, stoking fear and mistrust of government and authority to push his political agenda. 

Then when you factor in his oh-so-nostaligic life-used-to-be-better bullshit, flowers in a glass vase and all, the kind of nostalgic hankering for days of glory past, or at least intimations of it, then I'm riled. 

Don't worry, you are not the least like this guy. You have a sharp brain for one thing and more than an ounce of self-reflection. You are also eminently fair. I don't think this guy is. He has an agenda to push and he's using any tool at his disposal, including transparent attempts to exploit people's suffering, hurt and confusion.


westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Aug 11, 2021 - 11:46am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

...
His choice of metaphor about putting flowers in a broken vase speaks volumes about where his mind is.


His choice of metaphor speaks to Neil Oliver's level of education.   

And perhaps his reading choices.   Elite media are full of summaries of scientific papers and occasionally colleague disagreement.   These elite media are available in public libraries and often available online at no charge but most ordinary folks are satisfied with TV news or tabloid-quality newspapers and magazines.  

I have on occasion stumbled across some great exceptions but generally television is rather inadequate for getting anything somewhat complicated and nuanced across.   

Lurking in the background is the archaic concept of transparency and accountability.  It no longer applies to real ordinary individuals; it only applies to evil rich people and large corporations or some evil elite.
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 11, 2021 - 11:23am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 I've even met some of those who may, against their better judgement, be reading this.



Well that's a bad idea. The internet is full of crazies.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 11, 2021 - 8:38am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
maybe it's just me, but so many of these anti-vaxxers come across as oh-so protected children struggling to face a new reality and badly in need of a teddy and a hot chocolate. Unwilling to face facts and blaming the government for their sense of unease and discomfort, because who else are they going to blame? 
His choice of metaphor about putting flowers in a broken vase speaks volumes about where his mind is.

There is more than one way to suffer.

I hear this guy and he sounds like sooo many people I know. On a bad day he sounds like me.

People who are seriously online might, like you, hear a whining child. Get over it, go get your social interactions thru a glowing screen like a modern person and buck up. People who need real human contact hear the prisoner in the next cell.

I straddle those worlds, those points of view. I started working from home 15 years ago, and I've been using the internet as a social tool—my workplace watercooler—since 1989. I've even met some of those who may, against their better judgement, be reading this.

I'm also deeply embedded in my local community—in its arts, humanitarian, and political realms—and the endless lockdowns have been enormously frustrating. Not just on a personal level—my dog do I miss dancing!—but on professional levels (couldn't travel for a year) and political levels.

The latter has been maybe the most frustrating of all. We couldn't even hold a campaign rally, and my party gets zero interest from the press. The only way to get anyone's attention is word of mouth or an in-person event, where people can meet someone whose politics they've only been exposed to in caricature and find out how inaccurate the picture they've been shown is.

It has also empowered conspiracist factions who have a ready explanation for the isolation and frustration: it's intentional. It's not control for the sake of safety, it's control for the sake of control.

And they have a point. There are people exploiting the emergency to gain control over more aspects of our lives. What many of them miss is that doesn't mean the emergency is fake. Those voices are, more and more, getting silenced and suppressed on social media; that means they retreat into their bubbles and the rest of us have fewer and fewer ways to change their minds.

I wish people of both camps—the seriously online and the face-to-face—would have a lot more compassion for each other. Make an effort to create that human contact for those who can't get it thru a screen; find ways for businesses that need human interaction to stay afloat. Meaningful ways, not a check in the mail. Don't be so goddamned smug that you have what you need, reach out to those who don't. Don't delegate that task to a faceless government ill-suited to the task, go help your neighbor.

And don't use the pandemic as an excuse to shield yourself from your duty to those around you. You may need them someday.

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 11, 2021 - 7:16am

 miamizsun wrote:


possibly off topic coffee thoughts
listened to a bit of this vid and i see/hear frustration
there's probably a large role that trust and credibility play as well
leadership needs a balance of confidence, pride and most importantly humility
politics needs to embrace more reason, logic and objective data/science
leading with emotion and anecdotal beliefs (beliefs and truths are totally two different things) 
these might win you votes in the short run, but are toxic in the long term
it seems politics/parties live to exploit other's missteps and inflate their ability to save us when they get into power
to produce a desired solution/outcome isn't impossible, but it takes a real plan/framework based on trial and error
polarizing silliness is good for some sort of tribal confirmation bias but not much else
large nebulous bureaucracy shields gov from accountability so corruption follows
i'd simplify by leaving taxes right where they are and allow (or free up) people/businesses to work/produce
reduce the barriers to entry on business (just stop making production so damn difficult)
redistributing some wealth is necessary, but redistributing the knowledge to produce that wealth is much more important
something about teaching someone to fish or i demand fish sticks because i voted for x
what it is?

  


Right on   (but i do think raising cap gains, and estate taxes is a good idea)
sirdroseph

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Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 11, 2021 - 7:13am

miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 11, 2021 - 5:52am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

maybe it's just me, but so many of these anti-vaxxers come across as oh-so protected children struggling to face a new reality and badly in need of a teddy and a hot chocolate. Unwilling to face facts and blaming the government for their sense of unease and discomfort, because who else are they going to blame? 
His choice of metaphor about putting flowers in a broken vase speaks volumes about where his mind is.



possibly off topic coffee thoughts
listened to a bit of this vid and i see/hear frustration
there's probably a large role that trust and credibility play as well
leadership needs a balance of confidence, pride and most importantly humility
politics needs to embrace more reason, logic and objective data/science
leading with emotion and anecdotal beliefs (beliefs and truths are totally two different things) 
these might win you votes in the short run, but are toxic in the long term
it seems politics/parties live to exploit other's missteps and inflate their ability to save us when they get into power
to produce a desired solution/outcome isn't impossible, but it takes a real plan/framework based on trial and error
polarizing silliness is good for some sort of tribal confirmation bias but not much else
large nebulous bureaucracy shields gov from accountability so corruption follows
i'd simplify by leaving taxes right where they are and allow (or free up) people/businesses to work/produce
reduce the barriers to entry on business (just stop making production so damn difficult)
redistributing some wealth is necessary, but redistributing the knowledge to produce that wealth is much more important
something about teaching someone to fish or i demand fish sticks because i voted for x
what it is?

  
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 11, 2021 - 4:38am

 sirdroseph wrote:

maybe it's just me, but so many of these anti-vaxxers come across as oh-so protected children struggling to face a new reality and badly in need of a teddy and a hot chocolate. Unwilling to face facts and blaming the government for their sense of unease and discomfort, because who else are they going to blame? 
His choice of metaphor about putting flowers in a broken vase speaks volumes about where his mind is.

sirdroseph

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Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 11, 2021 - 3:37am

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 6, 2021 - 10:57am

 sirdroseph wrote:


Re. the possible risk of new variants from vaccinated breakthrough cases...I'm not sure what point they are driving, especially since they lead into that bit with a point about the drive to get vaccinated. 
Are they really promoting not vaccinating (which makes no sense)?
The possibility of variants from breakthrough cases isn't necessarily making headlines (given their logic that the media likes to scare its audience, I'm not sure why not), but it would seem to be an obvious consequence. 

sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 6, 2021 - 10:22am

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