......... I'm just a dumb, uneducated Trump supporting purveyor of claptrap and conservative nonsense, probably one of The Deplorables, and so I sometimes find it hard to communicate much beyond grunts and chants of "USA, USA".
Interesting exercise in typing. Rings true, that stereo-type is common. The lowest common denominator of the Trump movement has been the standard bearer of many in the anti-Trump movement for a few years now. The Culture Wars with the gloves off.
It is a familiar game plan. Dehumanize, demonize and then pounce.
I am sure there are many thoughtful, respectful Trump supporters. Though I do not understand why these folks, perhaps yourself included, have not already jumped the Trump movement and started a movement to rebuild the Republican party as a serious contender. Now is a chance to offer a new vision, something that still addresses some of the on going gripes.
Sure, I was being somewhat disingenuous there. I am neither dumb nor uneducated, and I have never chanted 'USA USA'. If I were American I probably would have.
The Trump movement are from my own experience, predominantly thoughtful, respectful, peaceful people, and from what I can gather and from those I have had interactions with, they are black, white, Latino, gay - all kinds of people. from all walks of life. All over the world. They are normal people. Many I have spoken to agree that Trump is flawed and not necessarily the nicest person on Earth. They admit he can be rude and boorish. They don't care. They like his policies, and for the first time they feel heard, they feel Trump is working for them etc etc.
I have thought before that the MAGA movement might somehow be the germination of a third party. The question is whether the establishment Republicans will head off and form a new party leaving the MAGA movement as the Republican Party, or whether the MAGA movement will form a new party leaving the establishment Republicans as themselves. It might be a good thing to have happen.
I understand that the MAGA movement has a beef mostly with the entrenched Washington establishment and radical leftists - not Democrats or Republicans per se.
Another thing I have noticed is that at his rallies, he jokes, exaggerates, boasts - he performs. Everyone in the house gets it, knows he is performing, doing his schtick, they get every joke and know exactly when he is joking. They play along, give the right feedback - it's entertainment. 'USA, USA!!'
The media takes every joke, every boast, every aspect of his performance, his schtick, and the interaction with the crowd, and their feedback and contribution to the 'event' - and twist it into "Trump Lies", and his mad deplorable followers.
His followers generally just laugh it all off as fake news but enjoy watching as liberals and the media have mini-meltdowns and run around with their hair on fire - "Trump lies, Trump lies!!!"
It's quite funny to watch sometimes.
Another thing....I think Trump seems to be something of a product of those '60's, '70's and even 80's self-help, self-empowerment, success-thinking, art of manifesting type of programmes. We all know them. He has done remarkably well, and people who do well tend to not be negative in outlook or speech. Even if they go bankrupt. They keep thinking big and positive and get up again and try again. SO he doesn't focus too much on little things, small thinking, negative thinking, self-deprecation, the downside, a negative outcome. He speaks and thinks largely about what it is that he wants, imagines it in existence, talks it into existence, and will not consider anything other than the desired outcome, even if the outcome is imminent and undesired. Never quit. Persist. Think big. Speak big. If business is terrific, it's "unbelievable!" If business is terrible, its "unbelievable!" Everything is huge! I hope I have given the general gist of what I mean here.
The media takes that characteristic and goes 'Trump lies!!, Trump lies!" and run around with their hair on fire, giving hours and hours to rants about how he lies and is devious and so on.
Also very funny sometimes.
Finally, then I have a very interesting pocketwatch to get into - Trumps taxes.
He apparently paid only $750 in personal income tax sometime or other.
Everyone freaks out - he's lying! He's cheating on his taxes!! The smell of burning hair is thick.
Everyone who runs big businesses or even small businesses shrugs and goes - "that's how you do it." You have little to nothing in your own name, you own little to nothing in your personal capacity, you draw a little to nothing salary, you put everything possible through the business. You run the business as close to minimal profit as possible, pay corporate taxes where you have to, maybe millions of dollars worth but not buck more than you have to, and you work the system. Nothing illegal about it. It's how it works. It's why you want a business - it's a vehicle for creating wealth
Everyone who lives off income after taxation is freaking out in between turd polishing and haemorrhoid licking.
Everyone who lives off income before taxation goes 'yeh, well done!, shrugs, and goes back to their yacht or building their next million.
......... I'm just a dumb, uneducated Trump supporting purveyor of claptrap and conservative nonsense, probably one of The Deplorables, and so I sometimes find it hard to communicate much beyond grunts and chants of "USA, USA".
Now is a chance to offer a new vision, something that still addresses some of the on going gripes.
......... I'm just a dumb, uneducated Trump supporting purveyor of claptrap and conservative nonsense, probably one of The Deplorables, and so I sometimes find it hard to communicate much beyond grunts and chants of "USA, USA".
Interesting exercise in typing. Rings true, that stereo-type is common. The lowest common denominator of the Trump movement has been the standard bearer of many in the anti-Trump movement for a few years now. The Culture Wars with the gloves off.
It is a familiar game plan. Dehumanize, demonize and then pounce.
I am sure there are many thoughtful, respectful Trump supporters. Though I do not understand why these folks, perhaps yourself included, have not already jumped the Trump movement and started a movement to rebuild the Republican party as a serious contender. Now is a chance to offer a new vision, something that still addresses some of the on going gripes.
Georgia and its long history of voter suppression Voters purged are likely to be âyoung voters, voters of lower income and citizens of racial groups that have been denied their sacred right to vote in the past,â a report from the Georgia American Civil Liberties Union states.
Kurtster, you can't read the reference to our posterity in the narrow sense to just mean the blessings of liberty. It is the full package they are referring to, i.e. you gotta do all of these things to secure the blessings of liberty now and in future generations.
The whole sentence should be read like this:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union:
establish Justice,
insure domestic Tranquility,
provide for the common defence,
promote the general Welfare,
and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselvesand our Posterity,
do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Your interpretation would imply you only need to check off the list in the first generation and in later generations all you have to do is secure the blessings of liberty, which is absurd.
The great Republican accomplishment of the past 4.5 years is the judiciary and the lean toward Christian morality. How many states have recently tried or accomplished making abortion illegal or nearly impossible to get? Is that morality...or are you suggesting that your view of human life...and we the people...is more correct than those who might support a woman's choice?
It says "you" cannot, but that doesn't mean they cannot.
The great Republican accomplishment of the past 4.5 years is the judiciary and the lean toward Christian morality. How many states have recently tried or accomplished making abortion illegal or nearly impossible to get? Is that morality...or are you suggesting that your view of human life...and we the people...is more correct than those who might support a woman's choice?
Oh geez. Personal liberty vs. the giant collective. Well pardon me for pointing out some of the obvious bits you've missed in this document you claim to love so much.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves
and our Posterity,
do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Lots of plurals in there.
Also, I note a lot of irony in the 'personal liberty' crowd being all up for supporting a giant well armed police force, as long is the pointy end is aimed toward people they don't like and who's liberties they don't really care about. So forgive me if I think your call to personal liberty isn't so much about personal liberty, but rather
a selfish desire to maintain a status that was attained by stomping on the personal liberties of others
(certainly not you individually, but your forefathers and such).
There you go, that's my 3.5 minutes of time for the trolls today. See you tomorrow.
which is what you seem to be doing yourself by claiming your way is better and more justifiable for your own needs and purposes than those that came before you who built this place, even if they go against the norm as established in the Constitution.
Posterity
pos·ter·i·ty
/päËsterÉdÄ/
noun
all future generations of people.
"the victims' names are recorded for posterity"
Similar:
future generations
succeeding generations
those who come after us
the future
ARCHAIC
the descendants of a person.
Join us in this vision, do not destroy us or this vision we hold that got us this far in the course of history. It is still the best one ever made. Work within it, not against it.
You cannot legislate morality. That is something that We The People must figure out on our own in order for it to be real and lasting. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you is the best place to start, imho. Shouldn't have to say that just like we shouldn't have to say that you need to wash your hands ...
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Oh geez. Personal liberty vs. the giant collective. Well pardon me for pointing out some of the obvious bits you've missed in this document you claim to love so much.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Lots of plurals in there.
Also, I note a lot of irony in the 'personal liberty' crowd being all up for supporting a giant well armed police force, as long is the pointy end is aimed toward people they don't like and who's liberties they don't really care about. So forgive me if I think your call to personal liberty isn't so much about personal liberty, but rather a selfish desire to maintain a status that was attained by stomping on the personal liberties of others (certainly not you individually, but your forefathers and such).
There you go, that's my 3.5 minutes of time for the trolls today. See you tomorrow.
Founders were communists...obviously. It's all about me and my freedoms.
You spent 3 mins more than I am today...but cost me 30 seconds more than I wanted to commit.
People who are a tad afraid of those discomforts and odds want a safer more regulated space and are prepared to sacrifice personal liberty in order to attain that.
If you are descended from people who left Europe and braved the unknown to settle and build a place for themselves in that great unknown, the notion of personal liberty is almost like oxygen.
What a typical load of crap. This notion that unless you are a conservative, you want to be coddled and can't handle anything threating or scary is just dumb. Sure there are a few, but there as just as many conservatives that fall into the same bucket, but they want an authoritarian to keep the peace and maintain their own 'safe space'.
Jiggz wrote:
Render my vote meaningless?...steal an election?....yeh, I completely understand.
Good thing those things didn't happen.
That wasn't what I was trying to say but ok, you read it that way so I wasn't clear.
What I was trying to describe was that I think that there are people today who feel that their personal liberty, struggled and fought for by preceding generations, and in a way guaranteed by the Constitution, is worth continuing to struggle for and fight for, in order that following generations can enjoy similar. There are many who feel it their birthright paid for in lives and blood by preceding generations and that they are responsible to ensure that it is not surrendered or lost. They take that responsibility very seriously.
They perceive that that liberty is under threat from Socialism, Communism, Cultural Marxism, post-modernism, cancel culture, political correctness, China, the Democratic Party, Joe Biden, the Republican Party - whatever; and are prepared to go to great lengths in order to protect and retain it, even the idea of it. That it is their duty and responsibility. It's something almost sacred.
There are others who don't feel the same about the idea of personal liberty, possibly feel badly or at least guilty about the actions of their ancestors, and not seeing the idea of personal liberty as important or dearly bought, don't care if it is lost if the greater community at large is perceived to be the better off for it, or if that is the price of everyone being safer, more comfortable, more guaranteed of self-esteem or self-actualisation.
They might be several generations down the line from people who long ago decided that personal rights and freedoms are worth exchanging for the possibility of the greater group being better off.
The former believe that the greater group cannot, in any way, be better off if their personal liberty is NOT retained.
So, would you surrender the idea of personal liberty if the group or country is better off for it, or never ever no matter what?
It's actually hard to describe - it's like.... you either feel it or you don't.
Maybe that's a bit clearer? Or not? I'm just a dumb, uneducated Trump supporting purveyor of claptrap and conservative nonsense, probably one of The Deplorables, and so I sometimes find it hard to communicate much beyond grunts and chants of "USA, USA".
Oh geez. Personal liberty vs. the giant collective. Well pardon me for pointing out some of the obvious bits you've missed in this document you claim to love so much.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Lots of plurals in there.
Also, I note a lot of irony in the 'personal liberty' crowd being all up for supporting a giant well armed police force, as long is the pointy end is aimed toward people they don't like and who's liberties they don't really care about. So forgive me if I think your call to personal liberty isn't so much about personal liberty, but rather a selfish desire to maintain a status that was attained by stomping on the personal liberties of others (certainly not you individually, but your forefathers and such).
There you go, that's my 3.5 minutes of time for the trolls today. See you tomorrow.
Yep, the US is in a particularly sorry place and falling faster and faster. But not for the reasons you guys think.
The U.S showed less social support, less sense of personal freedom, lower donations, and more perceived corruption of government and business, it said. “America’s crisis is, in short, a social crisis, not an economic crisis… Almost all of the policy discourse in Washington, D.C. centers on naïve attempts to raise the economic growth rate, as if a higher growth rate would somehow heal the deepening divisions and angst in American society. This kind of growth-only agenda is doubly wrong-headed.”
People who are a tad afraid of those discomforts and odds want a safer more regulated space and are prepared to sacrifice personal liberty in order to attain that.
If you are descended from people who left Europe and braved the unknown to settle and build a place for themselves in that great unknown, the notion of personal liberty is almost like oxygen.
What a typical load of crap. This notion that unless you are a conservative, you want to be coddled and can't handle anything threating or scary is just dumb. Sure there are a few, but there as just as many conservatives that fall into the same bucket, but they want an authoritarian to keep the peace and maintain their own 'safe space'.
Jiggz wrote:
Render my vote meaningless?...steal an election?....yeh, I completely understand.
Good thing those things didn't happen.
That wasn't what I was trying to say but ok, you read it that way so I wasn't clear.
What I was trying to describe was that I think that there are people today who feel that their personal liberty, struggled and fought for by preceding generations, and in a way guaranteed by the Constitution, is worth continuing to struggle for and fight for, in order that following generations can enjoy similar. There are many who feel it their birthright paid for in lives and blood by preceding generations and that they are responsible to ensure that it is not surrendered or lost. They take that responsibility very seriously.
They perceive that that liberty is under threat from Socialism, Communism, Cultural Marxism, post-modernism, cancel culture, political correctness, China, the Democratic Party, Joe Biden, the Republican Party - whatever; and are prepared to go to great lengths in order to protect and retain it, even the idea of it. That it is their duty and responsibility. It's something almost sacred.
There are others who don't feel the same about the idea of personal liberty, possibly feel badly or at least guilty about the actions of their ancestors, and not seeing the idea of personal liberty as important or dearly bought, don't care if it is lost if the greater community at large is perceived to be the better off for it, or if that is the price of everyone being safer, more comfortable, more guaranteed of self-esteem or self-actualisation.
They might be several generations down the line from people who long ago decided that personal rights and freedoms are worth exchanging for the possibility of the greater group being better off.
The former believe that the greater group cannot, in any way, be better off if their personal liberty is NOT retained.
So, would you surrender the idea of personal liberty if the group or country is better off for it, or never ever no matter what?
It's actually hard to describe - it's like.... you either feel it or you don't.
Maybe that's a bit clearer? Or not? I'm just a dumb, uneducated Trump supporting purveyor of claptrap and conservative nonsense, probably one of The Deplorables, and so I sometimes find it hard to communicate much beyond grunts and chants of "USA, USA".
You did an excellent job of describing at least how I actually feel about having a legacy attachment to the founding and maintenance of this country. I've been participating in these discussions for so long that I find it very hard to articulate these feelings anymore. Everything / anything I say is deconstructed and misinterpreted 8 ways to Sunday as you just were by islander. I find that I can never be clear enough. I don't know how much of the questioning is honest vs obstinance anymore. I've become conditioned to think that it is obstinance designed only to get me to chase my tail in making attempts to be a clear as possible for the questioner's personal amusement. That no one really cares or wants to know what I am trying to say. They just want me on the defensive with the goal of driving me away from here. Hence, the attitude that comes through every now and then.
And as in your last sentence, I too, engage in self deprecation. Stealing their thunder and beating them to the insults that lie in waiting. The usual charge I get when I do that is playing "butt hurt". But whatever.
Thanks again for taking the time to articulate this feeling. You did a great job.
Would anyone care to give a response to the following? I am interested to read what people think.
Conservative people tend to think progressive liberals are simply wrong. Progressive liberals think Conservatives are either stupid or somehow bad or evil.
Thoughts?
Firstly the qualifier should be passionate and involved conservatives and progressives and in my experience and observation both of these active groups think each other are wrong, bad and evil. I think that our hope lies in those that are not so involved and entrenched in their positions and realize that society and people are much more complex and nuanced than those that speak in the microphones and march in the street believe. I am hopeful that the true silent majority utterly rejects being placed in these boxes and is weary of the whole circus. I long for the rise of the apathetic!
Would anyone care to give a response to the following? I am interested to read what people think.
Conservative people tend to think progressive liberals are simply wrong. Progressive liberals think Conservatives are either stupid or somehow bad or evil.
