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Bernie Sanders - R_P - Jun 1, 2020 - 3:36pm
 
What Did You See Today? - Steely_D - Jun 1, 2020 - 11:00am
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Bernie Sanders Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 9, 10, 11  Next
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miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 19, 2020 - 7:46am

 R_P wrote:
More Hedges...
Despite the hyperventilating by corporate shills such as Matthews and Friedman, Sanders’ democratic socialism is essentially that of a New Deal Democrat. His political views would be part of the mainstream in France or Germany, where democratic socialism is an accepted part of the political landscape and is routinely challenged as too accommodationist by communists and radical socialists. Sanders calls for an end to our foreign wars, a reduction of the military budget, for “Medicare for All,” abolishing the death penalty, eliminating mandatory minimum sentences and private prisons, a return of Glass-Steagall, raising taxes on the wealthy, increasing the minimum wage to $15 an hour, canceling student debt, eliminating the Electoral College, banning fracking and breaking up agribusinesses. This does not qualify as a revolutionary agenda.

Sanders, unlike many more radical socialists, does not propose nationalizing the banks and the fossil fuel and arms industries. He does not call for the criminal prosecution of the financial elites who trashed the global economy or the politicians and generals who lied to launch preemptive wars, defined under international law as criminal wars of aggression, which have devastated much of the Middle East, resulted in hundreds of thousands of dead and millions of refugees and displaced people, and cost the nation between $5 trillion and $7 trillion. He does not call for worker ownership of factories and businesses. He does not promise to halt the government’s wholesale surveillance of the public. He does not intend to punish corporations that have moved manufacturing overseas. Most importantly, he believes, as I do not, that the political system, including the Democratic Party, can be reformed from within. He does not support sustained mass civil disobedience to bring the system down, the only hope we have of halting the climate emergency that threatens to doom the human race. On the political spectrum, he is, at best, an enlightened moderate. The vicious attacks against him by the elites are an indication of how anemic and withered our politics have become.
 

sanders is probably a nice guy

but his beliefs (like trump's) are a legit concern

replacing trump with sanders doesn't make a lot of sense

the over-arching theme of concentrating more power in fewer hands has consequences
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Feb 19, 2020 - 6:43am

More Hedges...
Despite the hyperventilating by corporate shills such as Matthews and Friedman, Sanders’ democratic socialism is essentially that of a New Deal Democrat. His political views would be part of the mainstream in France or Germany, where democratic socialism is an accepted part of the political landscape and is routinely challenged as too accommodationist by communists and radical socialists. Sanders calls for an end to our foreign wars, a reduction of the military budget, for “Medicare for All,” abolishing the death penalty, eliminating mandatory minimum sentences and private prisons, a return of Glass-Steagall, raising taxes on the wealthy, increasing the minimum wage to $15 an hour, canceling student debt, eliminating the Electoral College, banning fracking and breaking up agribusinesses. This does not qualify as a revolutionary agenda.

Sanders, unlike many more radical socialists, does not propose nationalizing the banks and the fossil fuel and arms industries. He does not call for the criminal prosecution of the financial elites who trashed the global economy or the politicians and generals who lied to launch preemptive wars, defined under international law as criminal wars of aggression, which have devastated much of the Middle East, resulted in hundreds of thousands of dead and millions of refugees and displaced people, and cost the nation between $5 trillion and $7 trillion. He does not call for worker ownership of factories and businesses. He does not promise to halt the government’s wholesale surveillance of the public. He does not intend to punish corporations that have moved manufacturing overseas. Most importantly, he believes, as I do not, that the political system, including the Democratic Party, can be reformed from within. He does not support sustained mass civil disobedience to bring the system down, the only hope we have of halting the climate emergency that threatens to doom the human race. On the political spectrum, he is, at best, an enlightened moderate. The vicious attacks against him by the elites are an indication of how anemic and withered our politics have become.

R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Feb 13, 2020 - 10:45am

 ScottN wrote:
Another issue Bernie faces is that he is a 78 y.o man with a recent heart attack but won't release his medical records.  That gives pause to many whose primary objective is to beat Trump.  An obvious concern is a possibly again-sickened Sanders at election time will hand the victory to Trump.
 
He needs a letter writer!
Bernie Sanders may be just what U.S. capitalism needs, says top economist
"I think, first, that (Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth) Warren and Sanders are not radicals," said Piketty in response to one interviewer's question. "They are moderate social democrats by European standards."

ScottN

ScottN Avatar

Location: Half inch above the K/T boundary
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2020 - 9:55am

 R_P wrote:
...
 
I saw the segment live and CM was a bit off, to say the least.  He has "lost a step" recently, imo.
 
Another issue Bernie faces is that he is a 78 y.o man with a recent heart attack but won't release his medical records.  That gives pause to many whose primary objective is to beat Trump.  An obvious concern is a possibly again-sickened Sanders at election time will hand the victory to Trump.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Feb 13, 2020 - 9:45am


Sharpen the guillotines!
sirdroseph

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Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2020 - 6:16am

 kcar wrote:


 sirdroseph wrote:

Yep.  Hopefully it would be the beginning of the quickening that will splinter the duopoly into more like minded groups offering more choices.
 

I haven't read up much on the history of third-party situations in the US but they never seem to last very long. Bernie's followers seem to me like they're devoted more to the man than his platform; some pundits describe it as a cult of personality like the one surrounding Trump. If things were otherwise I'd think you'd see more bleeding of support to Elizabeth Warren.

If you are right, sirdroseph, and Bernie's rise signals the splintering of the Democratic party then it could mean a prolonged run of GOP dominance. Tolerance of dissent and difference of opinion within the GOP is gone. GOPers are not going to divide and squabble like the Dems do.

If you're wrong, then I'm not sure how long a third party centered around Bernie's platform would last. I don't see his proposals having much chance of being enacted, even if he becomes POTUS. They'd be too expensive, economically disruptive and politically challenging to succeed in the near-term time frame that Bernie is pushing.
 
I don't think so, I see Trump's rise in the GOP to be more of a cult following of one man whereas Bernie may have a cult following, it is more of ideas rather than just a man.  I think it is pretty clear that although Sanders and Trump do share a lot in common, the primary difference is Trump is not an ideologue, he basically has no ideals other than an oblique form of Nationalism whereas Sanders is clear and pure ideology which will outlast him.  Either way, short term we will be alright.  Long term, we are doomed regardless.
sirdroseph

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Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2020 - 6:05am

 R_P wrote:
 
I agree with this.  Not to mention Sanders has a long history of admiring Soviet style communism.  Built in ally.  Gotta love irony.  I do think it is unfair to say that he doesn't care about the military though, I would like to think he is a non interventionist, but that plays into the Russians hands as well.  But I'm fine with that, if Russians happen to gain from our withdrawing of troops and influence in the world then so be it.  
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2020 - 5:08am

 Steely_D wrote:
Bernie is gonna get Trump re-elected. It's like having Ralph Nader as the Dem nominee.

Imagine the folks who are disliking Trump, but are Republicans. Will they jump ship to vote for someone who crows "socialism!"? Of course not. They'll stick with the GOP instead of swerving so far left.
Even the moderate Dems and undeclared are going to have second thoughts about him. And that plays right into the tightly grouped Trump-forward voting block's unanimity.

Bernie bros are just thinking about how much they want to have their voice heard and get things for free - but they're gonna find out that they should've had a bigger perspective. Sigh.
 

i think both bernie and trump share the authoritarian/nationalist/populist type of appeal

(seems like everybody needs a savior for the tribe/identity)

the political answer is always more money, power, control, etc. 

probably not difficult to find some comparison on the web

i think a huge challenge for bernie/socialist/communist politicians is that here in florida there are people that have lived/suffered under that authoritarian rule

cubans, venezuelans, etc. are pretty vocal toward those that haven't experienced the consequences of socialism/communism

many still have relatives there who are in dire straits

we'll see
sirdroseph

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Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2020 - 1:36am



 westslope wrote:
I believe that Sanders would make a far better president than the current one.  I would expect him to back off on some of his more damaging rhetoric aimed at rich people and corporations.

Too bad, many will vote against him out of fear.

Question:  How many other rich western countries have a 2-party system?  
 
I don't think he will and that is why I respect him.  I respect him for being authentic and telling us the truth.   You have got to give him credit for being consistent and honest because he is giving people like me who think he is absolutely and fundamentally wrong an easy choice not to vote for him and he knows this.   I give him major props for this, he is an honorable man of ideas.  He and Ron Paul are the only major well known American politicians in my life time who fit this description.
  As for the second part of voting against him out of fear.  Yes, that would be me and I am proud of it.
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Feb 13, 2020 - 12:48am



 westslope wrote:
I believe that Sanders would make a far better president than the current one.  I would expect him to back off on some of his more damaging rhetoric aimed at rich people and corporations.

Too bad, many will vote against him out of fear.


Question:  How many other rich western countries have a 2-party system?  
 

You and James Carville! The Ragin' Cajun lives up to his nickname in a profanity-laden interview with Vox.com . This excerpt was pure unvarnished Carville:


James Carville

For fuck’s sake, we’ve got Trump at Davos talking about cutting Medicare and no one in the party has the sense to plaster a picture of him up there sucking up to the global elites, talking about cutting taxes for them while he’s talking about cutting Medicare back home. Jesus, this is so obvious and so easy and I don’t see any of the candidates taking advantage of it.


The Republicans have destroyed their party and turned it into a personality cult, but if anyone thinks they can’t win, they’re out of their damn minds.


Sean Illing

I wouldn’t endorse everything every Democrat is doing or saying, but are they really destroying the party? What does that even mean?

James Carville

Look, Bernie Sanders isn’t a Democrat. He’s never been a Democrat. He’s an ideologue. And I’ve been clear about this: If Bernie is the nominee, I’ll vote for him. No question. I’ll take an ideological fanatic over a career criminal any day. But he’s not a Democrat.


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Feb 12, 2020 - 5:33pm

Here They Come Again: The Kind of Neoliberal Democrats Who Prefer Trump to Sanders
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Feb 12, 2020 - 5:25pm



 westslope wrote:
I believe that Sanders would make a far better president than the current one.  I would expect him to back off on some of his more damaging rhetoric aimed at rich people and corporations.

Too bad, many will vote against him out of fear.


Question:  How many other rich western countries have a 2-party system?  
 

I'd prefer a no-party system.
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Feb 12, 2020 - 5:00pm

I believe that Sanders would make a far better president than the current one.  I would expect him to back off on some of his more damaging rhetoric aimed at rich people and corporations.

Too bad, many will vote against him out of fear.


Question:  How many other rich western countries have a 2-party system?  
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Feb 12, 2020 - 3:18pm


kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Feb 12, 2020 - 2:05pm



 sirdroseph wrote:

Yep.  Hopefully it would be the beginning of the quickening that will splinter the duopoly into more like minded groups offering more choices.
 

I haven't read up much on the history of third-party situations in the US but they never seem to last very long. Bernie's followers seem to me like they're devoted more to the man than his platform; some pundits describe it as a cult of personality like the one surrounding Trump. If things were otherwise I'd think you'd see more bleeding of support to Elizabeth Warren.

If you are right, sirdroseph, and Bernie's rise signals the splintering of the Democratic party then it could mean a prolonged run of GOP dominance. Tolerance of dissent and difference of opinion within the GOP is gone. GOPers are not going to divide and squabble like the Dems do.

If you're wrong, then I'm not sure how long a third party centered around Bernie's platform would last. I don't see his proposals having much chance of being enacted, even if he becomes POTUS. They'd be too expensive, economically disruptive and politically challenging to succeed in the near-term time frame that Bernie is pushing.
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 12, 2020 - 1:50pm

Bernie is gonna get Trump re-elected. It's like having Ralph Nader as the Dem nominee.

Imagine the folks who are disliking Trump, but are Republicans. Will they jump ship to vote for someone who crows "socialism!"? Of course not. They'll stick with the GOP instead of swerving so far left.
Even the moderate Dems and undeclared are going to have second thoughts about him. And that plays right into the tightly grouped Trump-forward voting block's unanimity.

Bernie bros are just thinking about how much they want to have their voice heard and get things for free - but they're gonna find out that they should've had a bigger perspective. Sigh.
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Feb 12, 2020 - 12:02pm



 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


......
 

did well but the Heather Cox Richardson take on it is that Sanders and Warren (Lefter than the rest) took 1/3, Amy, Pete, et al (centrist) took 2/3
 
In an NYT op-ed piece, history professor Michael Kazin argues that Bernie Sanders has permanently transformed the policy positions of the Democratic party.  In Kazin's words:  "Every remaining candidate for president now endorses either Medicare for All or a robust public option, doubling the minimum wage, much higher taxes on the rich, legislation to facilitate union organizing and a transition to an economy based on sources of renewable energy."


Bernie Sanders Has Already Won

Whether he captures the White House or not, he has transformed the Democratic Party.


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Feb 12, 2020 - 11:09am

The Pundits Wrote Off Bernie’s Candidacy. In Iowa and New Hampshire, He Proved Them Wrong.
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 12, 2020 - 8:34am



 miamizsun wrote:
it seems like bernie needs to come out from under the dems and do his own thing

i mean if we believe there are forces in his own party conspiring to hold him back

my "what would spock do" app says it sounds logical
 

He did well but the Heather Cox Richardson take on it is that Sanders and Warren (Lefter than the rest) took 1/3, Amy, Pete, et al (centrist) took 2/3
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 12, 2020 - 5:20am

 miamizsun wrote:
it seems like bernie needs to come out from under the dems and do his own thing

i mean if we believe there are forces in his own party conspiring to hold him back

my "what would spock do" app says it sounds logical
 
Yep.  Hopefully it would be the beginning of the quickening that will splinter the duopoly into more like minded groups offering more choices.
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