You're misremembering how the mask thing played out. IIRC: Initially, the assumption was that the virus lived on surfaces and wasn't airborne (based on some earlier studies of other coronaviruses) so they said masks weren't going to help much with that but washing your hands 408 times a day would save us. They even thought the virus couldn't survive on hard surfaces for long, but then they swabbed that cruise ship and found live virus weeks after everyone had been evacuated, so the handwashing/surface sanitizing thing kicked into high gear. The masks thing really didn't begin to take hold here until we looked at the results in countries with and without masks... it was clear that unmasked countries were getting hit harder so they knew at that point that the virus was airborne even without yet proving it in the lab. None of that is waffling.
. I was just noting that I do not think that lack of FDA approval is why so many have chosen not to be vaccinated.
While I generally try and resist psychoanalyzing people I have seen an awful lot of anarchist/libertarian-right folks citing this. These are people who, for the most part, want to abolish the FDA. I have begun to wonder if all this grasping at straws is cover for some other kind of fear, namely fear of needles.
If you could put a dose on a sugar cube (or chicken nugget for the keto crowd) I wonder if we'd have as much resistance.
You're misremembering how the mask thing played out. IIRC: Initially, the assumption was that the virus lived on surfaces and wasn't airborne (based on some earlier studies of other coronaviruses) so they said masks weren't going to help much with that but washing your hands 408 times a day would save us. They even thought the virus couldn't survive on hard surfaces for long, but then they swabbed that cruise ship and found live virus weeks after everyone had been evacuated, so the handwashing/surface sanitizing thing kicked into high gear. The masks thing really didn't begin to take hold here until we looked at the results in countries with and without masks... it was clear that unmasked countries were getting hit harder so they knew at that point that the virus was airborne even without yet proving it in the lab. None of that is waffling.
so, they had no idea how a novel virus spread? Unless you're from the middle ages, seems a mask (throw on a bandana) would be a good idea.
p.s., as that wired article shows, the problem is also when gov takes a strong position of certainty, without suitable evidence to back it up. I don't see the point of arguing with certainty something like airborne or contact, when you don't have much proof or data to make the conclusion.
an attempt to steer people towards what they think is the best current solution to a problem
those bastards!
You're misremembering how the mask thing played out. IIRC: Initially, the assumption was that the virus lived on surfaces and wasn't airborne (based on some earlier studies of other coronaviruses) so they said masks weren't going to help much with that but washing your hands 408 times a day would save us. They even thought the virus couldn't survive on hard surfaces for long, but then they swabbed that cruise ship and found live virus weeks after everyone had been evacuated, so the handwashing/surface sanitizing thing kicked into high gear. The masks thing really didn't begin to take hold here until we looked at the results in countries with and without masks... it was clear that unmasked countries were getting hit harder so they knew at that point that the virus was airborne even without yet proving it in the lab. None of that is waffling.
. I was just noting that I do not think that lack of FDA approval is why so many have chosen not to be vaccinated.
Definitely in the category of worthless anecdote, but I have only met two real antivaxxers (by that I mean conspiracy theorist type anti-vaxxer).
Both are heavily dependent on the state (one is permanently unemployed and the other a high-ranking detective in the police force ). Couldn't help wondering if their very dependency on the government wasn't stoking their fears of some evil cabal running it.
I saw a traffic light turn from red to green the other day. I watched in amusement as it turned from green to yellow to red again! It was hilarious waffling! People behind me were just as astonished, they kept honking and honking to show how much they thought of its WAFFLING.
So I guess you missed the point? I'm not advocating some deep state mistrust of the gov. Rather, making the point that the gov and its agencies will often tell half truths or withhold info in an attempt to steer people towards what they think is the best current solution to a problem, which can backfire. e.g, initial advise not to wear a mask (to preserve ppe) was dead wrong, and they knew it.
p.s. and to steeler's point about the FDA...i agree. it's more about distrust of gov. to my point about how the gov is fumbling with gaining public trust.
Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth
Posted:
Aug 3, 2021 - 8:31am
black321 wrote:
the gov didnt develop the vaccine, pfizer, moderna, J&J did.
so they distrust big pharma, or big pharma and gov?
I mean, there is plenty of good reasons not to completely trust either, but look at the data and the decision seems clear.
e.g., I don't trust many company, but buy plenty of their products given the data shows them to be good quality, safe, effective...
. I was just noting that I do not think that lack of FDA approval is why so many have chosen not to be vaccinated.
I saw a traffic light turn from red to green the other day. I watched in amusement as it turned from green to yellow to red again! It was hilarious waffling! People behind me were just as astonished, they kept honking and honking to show how much they thought of its WAFFLING.
The takeaway, I thought, was that people who have chosen not to get vaccinated because they do not trust the government, especially not the FDA and CDC, are waiting on a FDA approval. There is a disconnect there. I am sure there is a segment of those unvaccinated who could/would be persuaded by FDA approval â as opposed to the emergency use authorization â but I suspect that segment is dwarfed by those whose refusal to get vaccinated is rooted in their distrust of the government.
the gov didnt develop the vaccine, pfizer, moderna, J&J did. so they distrust big pharma, or big pharma and gov? I mean, there is plenty of good reasons not to completely trust either, but look at the data and the decision seems clear. e.g., I don't trust many company, but buy plenty of their products given the data shows them to be good quality, safe, effective...
To my points regarding the border in my original post. In Mission, Texas. No masks, no social distancing, no vaccinations, no nothing except a virus incubator under a bridge. And then these people are turned loose to run freely about in the US as they please.
They sound like your kind of people. What's the problem?
Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth
Posted:
Aug 3, 2021 - 8:12am
islander wrote:
So you are upset because the government which you hate (partly because it is slow and bureaucratic), responded with bypassing it's normal slow/bureaucratic process to respond quickly to a looming threat that was killing hundreds of thousands of people. Further, you are upset because people that did not take advantage of the output of this rapid response program continue to be at risk from the virus even though they are unwilling to take a vaccine that, regardless of approval state, demonstrably reduces both risk and impact of the virus.
The takeaway, I thought, was that people who have chosen not to get vaccinated because they do not trust the government, especially not the FDA and CDC, are waiting on a FDA approval. There is a disconnect there. I am sure there is a segment of those unvaccinated who could/would be persuaded by FDA approval â as opposed to the emergency use authorization â but I suspect that segment is dwarfed by those whose refusal to get vaccinated is rooted in their distrust of the government.
The deep state remark was directed at steeler as we have an ongoing disagreement about that. In fact the whole post was directed at him.
However, the illustration about the dichotomy between what our government is doing at the border in regards to dealing with CV and how it is dealing with the citizenry in general is totally valid. With the citizenry it is saying one thing and at the border, it is ignoring everything that it is telling the citizenry to do. This has everything to do with the credibility of the government. And I thought the conversation was about concern over the credibility of who is telling us to do what and about why some people are simply not listening anymore. The border is about the why.
The biggest part of all of this is the ongoing position of our leaders to do what they say, not what they do. The examples are endless at this point. The best leadership is by example.
To my points regarding the border in my original post. In Mission, Texas. No masks, no social distancing, no vaccinations, no nothing except a virus incubator under a bridge. And then these people are turned loose to run freely about in the US as they please.
seems an easy solution would be to jab them, document them, and then let 'em loose.
Seems that there is an underlying assumption that the vaccines are FDA approved. Let's be perfectly clear, they are not. This may or may not be a big deal. As it should be FDA approval is a long drawn out process, but I just keep hearing too many people operating under the assumption that the vaccines are FDA approved which is a fallacy:
In related news? If I decide that the short and long term risk of the vaccines is commensurate with the odds that I will be hospitalized or die due to covid or give someone in an obvious at risk demographic the virus which is unlikely as most at risk people have had the vaccine, then I am going with Johnson & Johnson. Meanwhile everyone just stay away from me:
So you are upset because the government which you hate (partly because it is slow and bureaucratic), responded with bypassing it's normal slow/bureaucratic process to respond quickly to a looming threat that was killing hundreds of thousands of people. Further, you are upset because people that did not take advantage of the output of this rapid response program continue to be at risk from the virus even though they are unwilling to take a vaccine that, regardless of approval state, demonstrably reduces both risk and impact of the virus.
Wait, what ? Teachers and first responders have concerns about vaccine mandates ?
A union representing teachers in New York on Monday came out against the state's vaccine mandate for public workers, saying while it does encourage teachers to get vaccinated, it will not support a requirement. ...
A union representing emergency workers in New York also came out against the mandate, accusing the city of disregarding the "civil liberties of the workforce."
"Our members at FDNY EMS are highly trained medical professionals, yet they continue to be disrespected and disregarded by city leadership, which believes we can feed our families on poverty wages," the Fire Department of New York EMS Local 2507 said in a statement last week.
Diversions like that into "deep state" and other things that aren't generally agreed upon just separates the audience into those who'll keep listening (a few) and those who stop listening (a lot). And then, we still have a pandemic - but now no one's listening to you. With skillful dissection, we need to understand the thing that's killing our friends, families, selves - and learn who the people are, all over the world, who have a knowledge base about the topic, and listen to them. And not create some unprovable reasons to ignore those people who spent the preceding decades learning how infections and people and medicines and immunizations work. Because they aren't Dr. Manchurian Candidates; they're working to help - and being thwarted by intentional misinformation propagated by our enemy nations, lapped up by people who think that, if they believe the contrary to what the majority think, that they're somehow smarter or more informed.
What bullshit, and they're hurting everyone else with their ignorant pseudo-intellectual obstinacy. It's cute at the beginning ("oh look, they think the earth is flat!") but has now become literally deadly.
The deep state remark was directed at steeler as we have an ongoing disagreement about that. In fact the whole post was directed at him.
However, the illustration about the dichotomy between what our government is doing at the border in regards to dealing with CV and how it is dealing with the citizenry in general is totally valid. With the citizenry it is saying one thing and at the border, it is ignoring everything that it is telling the citizenry to do. This has everything to do with the credibility of the government. And I thought the conversation was about concern over the credibility of who is telling us to do what and about why some people are simply not listening anymore. The border is about the why.
The biggest part of all of this is the ongoing position of our leaders to do what they say, not what they do. The examples are endless at this point. The best leadership is by example.
To my points regarding the border in my original post. In Mission, Texas. No masks, no social distancing, no vaccinations, no nothing except a virus incubator under a bridge. And then these people are turned loose to run freely about in the US as they please.
seems to be an issue of damned if you do (tell the whole truth), and damned if you don't (withhold info or "possibilities" in an attempt to manage the population towards the currently safest route.)
the whole truth is, s-t studies show the vaccine to be highly effective, safe with minimal side effects, and stops the spread. but we don't know the full l-t impact of vaccines (ADE...), or how new variants might impact its effectiveness (to date, clinical evidence shows still highly effective at reducing morbidity).
the latter option seems to be the preferred method by our parenting gov. But how many times do we need to hear them waffle, with certainty between don't wear a mask and wear a mask? this is what creates the politics.
Seems that there is an underlying assumption that the vaccines are FDA approved. Let's be perfectly clear, they are not. This may or may not be a big deal. As it should be FDA approval is a long drawn out process, but I just keep hearing too many people operating under the assumption that the vaccines are FDA approved which is a fallacy:
In related news? If I decide that the short and long term risk of the vaccines is commensurate with the odds that I will be hospitalized or die due to covid or give someone in an obvious at risk demographic the virus which is unlikely as most at risk people have had the vaccine, then I am going with Johnson & Johnson. Meanwhile everyone just stay away from me:
So you are upset because the government which you hate (partly because it is slow and bureaucratic), responded with bypassing it's normal slow/bureaucratic process to respond quickly to a looming threat that was killing hundreds of thousands of people. Further, you are upset because people that did not take advantage of the output of this rapid response program continue to be at risk from the virus even though they are unwilling to take a vaccine that, regardless of approval state, demonstrably reduces both risk and impact of the virus.
Seems that there is an underlying assumption that the vaccines are FDA approved. Let's be perfectly clear, they are not. This may or may not be a big deal. As it should be FDA approval is a long drawn out process, but I just keep hearing too many people operating under the assumption that the vaccines are FDA approved which is a fallacy:
In related news? If I decide that the short and long term risk of the vaccines is commensurate with the odds that I will be hospitalized or die due to covid or give someone in an obvious at risk demographic the virus which is unlikely as most at risk people have had the vaccine, then I am going with Johnson & Johnson. Meanwhile everyone just stay away from me:
). Couldn't help wondering if their very dependency on the government wasn't stoking their fears of some evil cabal running it.
