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kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 9:45am

 steeler wrote:


 kurtster wrote:
Well there are calls to investigate the WHO which has decidedly taken China's side and point of view throughout and has essentially become China's shill.  The WHO immediately condemned Trump's travel ban regarding China in January and a week later, Europe in February.  China, if it was a responsible world citizen, would have immediately restricted its citizens from world travel in an effort to stem the spread as soon as the domestic outbreak began.  They did not.  They had to be shamed into doing so.  Based on this the WHO has lost its credibility.
 
The travel ban on non-US citizens coming from China was announced on January 31. The corresponding ban on flights from much of Europe was announced March 11.

 
I stand corrected.  Does not change the fact that the WHO immediately condemned Trump's travel ban regarding China.
kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 9:43am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

 I knew this was coming from you sooner or later Kurtster and it makes me livid.

What in your highly knowledgeable and well-researched opinion did China not do to warn you about a virus that the world scientific community has known about as a high risk for at least four years?

Fact is your government was so far up its own arse to think it was immune from this novel virus and it sat on its hands downplaying the risk until it blew up in their face. And now to blame the failings of your own government on others is a character failing I would despise in a five year old, let alone the leaders of the free world. 

Sure China may have counted their numbers differently, but they bought the world community precious time to prepare and we should be eternally grateful to them. That your government squandered this opportunity lies solely with them. 
 
So that I just posted about an action that was under consideration by some governments, that makes you livid with me ?  It is not my idea.  It is just something I heard in a discussion that may be coming down the road in the near future.  I posted it only as a place holder.  Makes me wonder why you are so defensive about China.

China did more than count their numbers differently.  They minimized the threat of CV 19 initially saying it was of little more danger than the common flu (which was parroted by the WHO. I have seen time stamped video clips backing up this assertion), even though they knew otherwise.  They were the experts.  They had been studying this particular strain for years, yet misdirected everyone regarding the severity of this virus, until caught in their lies.  By that time, the horse was well out of the barn.

As time passes, we will find out just how much China lied and misdirected the entire world, while putting the Chinese Government's self interests first.  No doubt you will not believe any findings that hold China more than negligent in their initial handling of the outbreak of the virus. You have already made it clear that you take China's word over everyone else's, especially the USA's.

Clearly you want to sweep the origins of this outbreak under the rug to protect China and instead focus on how the international reaction and in particular the USA's reaction to the outbreak went instead.

You are aware that China initially asserted that the virus could not be transmitted by human to human contact which the WHO parroted ?  That is one of the first lies made by China and is responsible for the rest of the world not taking stronger measures from day one.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 9:40am



 kurtster wrote:
Well there are calls to investigate the WHO which has decidedly taken China's side and point of view throughout and has essentially become China's shill.  The WHO immediately condemned Trump's travel ban regarding China in January and a week later, Europe in February.  China, if it was a responsible world citizen, would have immediately restricted its citizens from world travel in an effort to stem the spread as soon as the domestic outbreak began.  They did not.  They had to be shamed into doing so.  Based on this the WHO has lost its credibility.
 
The travel ban on non-US citizens coming from China was announced on January 31. The corresponding ban on flights from much of Europe was announced March 11.

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 9:16am



 kurtster wrote:
Well there are calls to investigate the WHO which has decidedly taken China's side and point of view throughout and has essentially become China's shill.  The WHO immediately condemned Trump's travel ban regarding China in January and a week later, Europe in February.  China, if it was a responsible world citizen, would have immediately restricted its citizens from world travel in an effort to stem the spread as soon as the domestic outbreak began.  They did not.  They had to be shamed into doing so.  Based on this the WHO has lost its credibility.
 

The White House didnt lose any credibility...because there was none to lose.  Ha!
kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 9:13am

Well there are calls to investigate the WHO which has decidedly taken China's side and point of view throughout and has essentially become China's shill.  The WHO immediately condemned Trump's travel ban regarding China in January and a week later, Europe in February.  China, if it was a responsible world citizen, would have immediately restricted its citizens from world travel in an effort to stem the spread as soon as the domestic outbreak began.  They did not.  They had to be shamed into doing so.  Based on this the WHO has lost its credibility.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 9:12am



 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

No, I am not confounding the issues, just pointing out that on the benchmark you chose, the US doesn't perform very well.  just an observation, more for the gallery than for you.

 
OK, got it.

miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 8:35am



 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

no doubt J.  but you have to pushback on egregious falsehoods otherwise they become established just by the sheer force of repetition.  boring as hell, but hell, someone has to do it. :wave: 
 

oh i agree (i tire of the over-blowviation, i don't find it helpful)

the entire planet has had plenty of warning/signs that this is a potential issue

prep has been waived off time after time by practically every country

even south korea

i think i gleaned an article that at first  their leadership (back in feb) thought this was non-issue as well

i posted a sub-titled interview with their top doc and he had some very solid stuff to say

the bad news of course is that we'll have mountains of political bs shoveled our way

the good news in all of this that science/bio-tech has some seriously awesome tools and talent to pin the proper labels and build solutions

and digitizing dna will continue to open up biology to mind-warping computing power to benefit us in so many ways

ATCGs are the new ones and zeros, the new code so to speak

i think genetic modification is easily one the most important areas of science today, if not the most important

regards
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 7:57am

 black321 wrote:


 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

Again, not a particularly favourable benchmark to use if you want to compare Chinese cooperation to US actions: upholding sanctions to stricken countries, barring supplies of medical supplies, trying to buy up exclusive rights to remedies.. etc. etc.  Trump is making Communist China look like the kind of neighbour most of the world would rather have, which is really no mean feat. 
 

as i thought, you are confounding the issues.  I'm not.  I'm not in any way supporting one side over the other. China  did share a lot of information, but only after the story 'got out.'  
What i am saying is that a truly responsible govt would have immediately started sharing info, based on case #1, getting all hands on deck, or at least providing the opportunity.  for that, i would be grateful.
 
No, I am not confounding the issues, just pointing out that on the benchmark you chose, the US doesn't perform very well.  just an observation, more for the gallery than for you.

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 7:48am



 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

Again, not a particularly favourable benchmark to use if you want to compare Chinese cooperation to US actions: upholding sanctions to stricken countries, barring supplies of medical supplies, trying to buy up exclusive rights to remedies.. etc. etc.  Trump is making Communist China look like the kind of neighbour most of the world would rather have, which is really no mean feat. 
 

as i thought, you are confounding the issues.  I'm not.  I'm not in any way supporting one side over the other. China  did share a lot of information, but only after the story 'got out.'  
What i am saying is that a truly responsible govt would have immediately started sharing info, based on case #1, getting all hands on deck, or at least providing the opportunity.  for that, i would be grateful.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 7:41am

 miamizsun wrote:
it has been said (and demonstrated) many times before that failure is an orphan and success has many parents

i'm fairly certain that we'll be able to use hindsight and slam anyone and everyone

i'd bet my boots that we'll be surrounded by geniuses

we all love to point fingers (you'll be able to point to  globe and have field day)

i think it will divisive, non-productive and possibly set back the serious efforts to build a solution

political psychics with crystal balls will  surely shine and crowd out any rational thought, but think of the  media ratings!

because those morons in the other party

i've noticed it's always those idiots!

peace and good luck

 
no doubt J.  but you have to pushback on egregious falsehoods otherwise they become established just by the sheer force of repetition.  boring as hell, but hell, someone has to do it. :wave: 
miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 7:32am

it has been said (and demonstrated) many times before that failure is an orphan and success has many parents

i'm fairly certain that we'll be able to use hindsight and slam anyone and everyone

i'd bet my boots that we'll be surrounded by geniuses

we all love to point fingers (you'll be able to point to  globe and have field day)

i think it will divisive, non-productive and possibly set back the serious efforts to build a solution

political psychics with crystal balls will  surely shine and crowd out any rational thought, but think of the  media ratings!

because those morons in the other party

i've noticed it's always those idiots!

peace and good luck


haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 7:30am



 black321 wrote:


 haresfur wrote:


 black321 wrote:
appears china did the bare minimum, in terms of 'acceptable' behavior,' to let the world know, as did the US and many others in preparing for this.
 

What the heck is a "bare minimum?" They shared data on the symptoms, shared samples so the world could get going on developing tests, shared knowledge of their treatments when no one knew what would be effective. Let the rest of the world know that this was so serious, they were building frickin hospitals. Guess what they would have shared more with the US if Trump hadn't shut down programs for international cooperation.

And no, I am not a fan of the Chinese Government. Just that they are copping a lot of undeserved shit from people who want to blame them for their own government's shortcomings.
 

i'm not trying to give them 'shit' but also see no reason to be particularly 'grateful' for them sharing  what information that  they eventually did provide...that was a 'minimum' of what any decent, acceptable human society would. 
 
See that's the problem. They shared a hell of a lot of information, including stuff that made them look bad, yet it seems popular to claim they did not.

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 7:14am

 black321 wrote:


 haresfur wrote:


 black321 wrote:
appears china did the bare minimum, in terms of 'acceptable' behavior,' to let the world know, as did the US and many others in preparing for this.
 

What the heck is a "bare minimum?" They shared data on the symptoms, shared samples so the world could get going on developing tests, shared knowledge of their treatments when no one knew what would be effective. Let the rest of the world know that this was so serious, they were building frickin hospitals. Guess what they would have shared more with the US if Trump hadn't shut down programs for international cooperation.

And no, I am not a fan of the Chinese Government. Just that they are copping a lot of undeserved shit from people who want to blame them for their own government's shortcomings.
 

i'm not trying to give them 'shit' but also see no reason to be particularly 'grateful' for them sharing  what information that  they eventually did provide...that was a 'minimum' of what any decent, acceptable human society would. 
 
Again, not a particularly favourable benchmark to use if you want to compare Chinese cooperation to US actions: upholding sanctions to stricken countries, barring supplies of medical supplies, trying to buy up exclusive rights to remedies.. etc. etc.  Trump is making Communist China look like the kind of neighbour most of the world would rather have, which is really no mean feat. 
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 7:08am



 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

That would then be just four to six weeks from patient zero.  
 

And 28 days before Trump barred non-US citizens coming to US on flights from China — his first action publicly announced.

And about 2 months before Trump began publicly stating that there was a threat more serious than the seasonal flu.
black321

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Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 7:08am



 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


 haresfur wrote:


 The world would have been so screwed if China hadn't shared the information they did. I'm sure they screwed up in the beginning but it's not like they knew what they were dealing with like, say, USA at the start of their pandemic. Don't forget you have a president who is justifying his lies because he claims to be trying to encourage people.

 

And any country—US included—would naturally dither and dissemble for some time, trying to get things under control or see if things are going to get out of control before announcing it and bringing instant economic chaos onto themselves.
 

There's fumbling during the early stages of any crisis, as you try to get a handle on things...is that what you mean? Or is it OK for a gov to contain what has been identified as a potential significant risk, e.g a novel virus, for the sake of economics?
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 7:03am



 haresfur wrote:


 The world would have been so screwed if China hadn't shared the information they did. I'm sure they screwed up in the beginning but it's not like they knew what they were dealing with like, say, USA at the start of their pandemic. Don't forget you have a president who is justifying his lies because he claims to be trying to encourage people.

 

And any country—US included—would naturally dither and dissemble for some time, trying to get things under control or see if things are going to get out of control before announcing it and bringing instant economic chaos onto themselves.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 7:00am



 haresfur wrote:


 black321 wrote:
appears china did the bare minimum, in terms of 'acceptable' behavior,' to let the world know, as did the US and many others in preparing for this.
 

What the heck is a "bare minimum?" They shared data on the symptoms, shared samples so the world could get going on developing tests, shared knowledge of their treatments when no one knew what would be effective. Let the rest of the world know that this was so serious, they were building frickin hospitals. Guess what they would have shared more with the US if Trump hadn't shut down programs for international cooperation.

And no, I am not a fan of the Chinese Government. Just that they are copping a lot of undeserved shit from people who want to blame them for their own government's shortcomings.
 

i'm not trying to give them 'shit' but also see no reason to be particularly 'grateful' for them sharing  what information that  they eventually did provide...that was a 'minimum' of what any decent, acceptable human society would. 
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 7:00am

 haresfur wrote:


 black321 wrote:
appears china did the bare minimum, in terms of 'acceptable' behavior,' to let the world know, as did the US and many others in preparing for this.
 

What the heck is a "bare minimum?" They shared data on the symptoms, shared samples so the world could get going on developing tests, shared knowledge of their treatments when no one knew what would be effective. Let the rest of the world know that this was so serious, they were building frickin hospitals. Guess what they would have shared more with the US if Trump hadn't shut down programs for international cooperation.

And no, I am not a fan of the Chinese Government. Just that they are copping a lot of undeserved shit from people who want to blame them for their own government's shortcomings.
 
{#Clap}
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 6:59am

 steeler wrote:


 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
And to its credit, when it did become aware of the risk, it bought us time, as acknowledged by the WHO.

The prevarication since then lies entirely with the various governments. This is also substantiated by the discrepancy in case numbers (with both the UK and US failing on many metrics) and case fatality rates.. This discrepancy between countries cannot be laid at the door of the Chinese government but is entirely homegrown.

 
Reporting here is that HHS Secretary Azar was notified of the virus by his counterpart in China on January 3.

 
That would then be just four to six weeks from patient zero.  
haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 8, 2020 - 6:56am



 black321 wrote:
appears china did the bare minimum, in terms of 'acceptable' behavior,' to let the world know, as did the US and many others in preparing for this.
 

What the heck is a "bare minimum?" They shared data on the symptoms, shared samples so the world could get going on developing tests, shared knowledge of their treatments when no one knew what would be effective. Let the rest of the world know that this was so serious, they were building frickin hospitals. Guess what they would have shared more with the US if Trump hadn't shut down programs for international cooperation.

And no, I am not a fan of the Chinese Government. Just that they are copping a lot of undeserved shit from people who want to blame them for their own government's shortcomings.
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