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R_P

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Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 11:44am

 kurtster wrote:
You're nucking futz.  To even go there is to assume that the plane was identified as a commercial airliner, the passenger manifest known, and deliberately shot down as opposed to an accident resulting from misidentification.

 Really, Richard.   You apparently will do anything to exploit a real crisis or tragedy for your own ends.
 
{#Think} SRSLY?!
This is probably your lamest attempt at trolling to date...
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 11:43am

 kurtster wrote:

Yes, a big slap at Obama, and an indictment regarding his handling of foreign affairs to date.

You seem to be blinded by your particular ideology on this matter.  Obama is allowing an invasion on our southern border.  He does not deserve respect anymore.  His office does, but he has forsaken any obligation towards any personal respect, imo.

I don't live in your politically correct world, nor wish to.  

The emperor has no clothes, get over it.

 

 
Politically correct world?  I'm trying to get you into the world of logic and reason.  
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 11:40am

 kurtster wrote:

I'm far from asking for any kind of military confrontation.

This is not our fight.  Its a European problem.  That does not mean I am trying to minimize the importance of the act of shooting down a civilian aircraft.  On the other hand the plane was flying through a war zone, so shit does happen and in war, no one is innocent.  To think otherwise is to misunderstand what war really is.

But geez Louise, Obama can do more than offer an insincere claim of concern over the matter.

His remark came off as a contractual obligation, rather than having any real meaning. 

But here we are in the weeds talking about Obama rather than the event itself. 

 

And,— stating it again  — you are the one who brought Obama up in your very first post at a time when the facts were not even close to being known. You make it sound in this and your prior post in response to me that Obama should have been announcing some  kind of action immediately after the plane went down.
  

   


kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 11:40am

 RichardPrins wrote:
About 100 of the 298 people killed in the Malaysia Airlines crash were heading to Melbourne for a major AIDS conference, conference attendees have been told.

Delegates at a pre-conference in Sydney were told on Friday morning that about 100 medical researchers, health workers and activists were on the plane that went down near the Russia-Ukraine border, including former International AIDS Society president Joep Lange. (...)
Which is not to suggest that their lives were any more valuable than the others, but it adds another dimension to the overall tragedy...

 
You're nucking futz.  To even go there is to assume that the plane was identified as a commercial airliner, the passenger manifest known, and deliberately shot down as opposed to an accident resulting from misidentification.

 Really, Richard.   You apparently will do anything to exploit a real crisis or tragedy for your own ends.
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 11:33am

 ScottN wrote:

I love irony on a Friday afternoon.
Yes, let's show those damn kids how really tough we are!

 
I'm far from asking for any kind of military confrontation.

This is not our fight.  Its a European problem.  That does not mean I am trying to minimize the importance of the act of shooting down a civilian aircraft.  On the other hand the plane was flying through a war zone, so shit does happen and in war, no one is innocent.  To think otherwise is to misunderstand what war really is.

But geez Louise, Obama can do more than offer an insincere claim of concern over the matter.

His remark came off as a contractual obligation, rather than having any real meaning. 

But here we are in the weeds talking about Obama rather than the event itself. 
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 11:19am

 RichardPrins wrote:
About 100 of the 298 people killed in the Malaysia Airlines crash were heading to Melbourne for a major AIDS conference, conference attendees have been told.

Delegates at a pre-conference in Sydney were told on Friday morning that about 100 medical researchers, health workers and activists were on the plane that went down near the Russia-Ukraine border, including former International AIDS Society president Joep Lange. (...)


 
Lets see....Russians hate gay people, AIDS is a gay disease... I think we got ourselves a conspiracy, folks!
R_P

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Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 11:14am

About 100 of the 298 people killed in the Malaysia Airlines crash were heading to Melbourne for a major AIDS conference, conference attendees have been told.

Delegates at a pre-conference in Sydney were told on Friday morning that about 100 medical researchers, health workers and activists were on the plane that went down near the Russia-Ukraine border, including former International AIDS Society president Joep Lange. (...)
Which is not to suggest that their lives were any more valuable than the others, but it adds another dimension to the overall tragedy...
ScottN

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Location: Half inch above the K/T boundary
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Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 11:10am

 kurtster wrote:

Yes, a big slap at Obama, and an indictment regarding his handling of foreign affairs to date.

You seem to be blinded by your particular ideology on this matter.  Obama is allowing an invasion on our southern border.  He does not deserve respect anymore.  His office does, but he has forsaken any obligation towards any personal respect, imo.

I don't live in your politically correct world, nor wish to.  

The emperor has no clothes, get over it.
 
I love irony on a Friday afternoon.
Yes, let's show those damn kids how really tough we are!
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 11:03am

 steeler wrote:

Your post yesterday was at 12:07  p.m.  ( PDT or 3:07 pm EDT )  This is what you said about Obama's initial statement (and all you said about Obama, period, in that post): 

Obama has stated that finding out if any Americans on board was his first priority, while stating that this "may be a tragedy".
Funny (not) how Obama is unsure that shooting down a commercial airliner is a tragedy
.

By any objective assessment, this is a gratuitous slap at Obama.  The suggestion that he would find the shooting down of a commercial airliner resulting in 298 deaths not to be a tragedy is absurd.  

  

 
Yes, a big slap at Obama, and an indictment regarding his handling of foreign affairs to date.

You seem to be blinded by your particular ideology on this matter.  Obama is allowing an invasion on our southern border.  He does not deserve respect anymore.  His office does, but he has forsaken any obligation towards any personal respect, imo.

I don't live in your politically correct world, nor wish to.  

The emperor has no clothes, get over it.

 
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 9:08am

 kurtster wrote:

Just one minute please.

I never once said this was a deliberate attack on a commercial airliner.  Please backscroll and show where I said this was deliberate.  Plus, I have yet to see any mention that the Ukrainian government or anyone else for that matter, thinks that a commercial airliner was deliberately targeted.  

I agree with you that this was an unfortunate accident and most likely the result of piss poor planning and incompetence.  Maybe the missile crew was drunk, who knows ?  I don't.  To deliberately attack a commercial airliner is an act of terror and not good for those seeking sympathy for their cause.  This event is a lot of things rolled into one, but I have yet to conclude that it was anything more than the assholes manning the missiles thought that they had a military flight in their sights and were not skilled enough to verify their target before firing.

I stand behind everything that I have so far posted on this event. 

Edit:  My "joke" as you term it was anything but.  It was an indictment against Obama.  Once again, Obama chose to vote "present" on a matter that matters, rather than take a stand and commit himself to anything.

 
Your post yesterday was at 12:07 p.m. This is what you said about Obama's initial statement (and all you said about Obama, period, in that post): 

Obama has stated that finding out if any Americans on board was his first priority, while stating that this "may be a tragedy".
Funny (not) how Obama is unsure that shooting down a commercial airliner is a tragedy
.

By any objective assessment, this is a gratuitous slap at Obama.  The suggestion that he would find the shooting down of a commercial airliner resulting in 298 deaths not to be a tragedy is absurd.  

  


kurtster

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 7:07am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

Driving home yesterday and listening to NPR, their reporter on the scene was being asked his opinion by the in-studio news host and the reporter (Noah Sneider?) seemed to be saying that there's no way this plane was singled out, and that there's no way any party on the ground would target a commercial airliner deliberately. The most likely scenario, he seemed to be saying, was simple incompetence. It takes more than one person to operate that missile system: one or more to locate incoming aircraft, a commander to give the order, and the missile itself has onboard systems that report back status such as signals received from the target aircraft. Apparently several systems that might have prevented this were available but obviously they failed or were ignored/misunderstood.

I was driving and making stops, in/out of the car so I apologize for the spotty summary, but like Kurt, I feel able to flesh out my own theories. Unlike Kurt (and the leadership of Ukraine), I am not able to immediately declare this to be a deliberate machination of Russia or the separatists. I do think the airline (and all the others) who didn't think changing their routes was necessary deserves a solid drubbing in the media. When we get on an airplane, we have no control of its route and we implicitly trust that we will not fly over active war zones, don't we?
 
And Kurt: May/Might, that's not what anyone cares about. Your tone-deaf Obama "joke" before the wreckage was even cool is what set people off. But why should anyone expect you to understand that when you learned everything you need to know about class and good taste from Rush? 

 
Just one minute please.

I never once said this was a deliberate attack on a commercial airliner.  Please backscroll and show where I said this was deliberate.  Plus, I have yet to see any mention that the Ukrainian government or anyone else for that matter, thinks that a commercial airliner was deliberately targeted.  

I agree with you that this was an unfortunate accident and most likely the result of piss poor planning and incompetence.  Maybe the missile crew was drunk, who knows ?  I don't.  To deliberately attack a commercial airliner is an act of terror and not good for those seeking sympathy for their cause.  This event is a lot of things rolled into one, but I have yet to conclude that it was anything more than the assholes manning the missiles thought that they had a military flight in their sights and were not skilled enough to verify their target before firing.

I stand behind everything that I have so far posted on this event. 

Edit:  My "joke" as you term it was anything but.  It was an indictment against Obama.  Once again, Obama chose to vote "present" on a matter that matters, rather than take a stand and commit himself to anything.


ScottFromWyoming

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Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 7:06am

 kurtster wrote:
I think this parallels more with yesterday than the event you linked to.  
 
Of course you do.
 
All of them seem to be the result of on-the-ground commanders being incompetent or otherwise unable to think rationally about what it is they're doing.
 
A brief glance at some of these shows little or no indication of intent by any government and over-reaching by pilots or local command.
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 6:45am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

Sounds to me like someone stuffed up big time. Awful. 

 
Driving home yesterday and listening to NPR, their reporter on the scene was being asked his opinion by the in-studio news host and the reporter (Noah Sneider?) seemed to be saying that there's no way this plane was singled out, and that there's no way any party on the ground would target a commercial airliner deliberately. The most likely scenario, he seemed to be saying, was simple incompetence. It takes more than one person to operate that missile system: one or more to locate incoming aircraft, a commander to give the order, and the missile itself has onboard systems that report back status such as signals received from the target aircraft. Apparently several systems that might have prevented this were available but obviously they failed or were ignored/misunderstood.

I was driving and making stops, in/out of the car so I apologize for the spotty summary, but like Kurt, I feel able to flesh out my own theories. Unlike Kurt (and the leadership of Ukraine), I am not able to immediately declare this to be a deliberate machination of Russia or the separatists. I do think the airline (and all the others) who didn't think changing their routes was necessary deserves a solid drubbing in the media. When we get on an airplane, we have no control of its route and we implicitly trust that we will not fly over active war zones, don't we?
 
And Kurt: May/Might, that's not what anyone cares about. Your tone-deaf Obama "joke" before the wreckage was even cool is what set people off. But why should anyone expect you to understand that when you learned everything you need to know about class and good taste from Rush? 
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 6:37am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote: 
Yep, that was mentioned in the coverage I watched.

So was this ... 

I think this parallels more with yesterday than the event you linked to.  Make no mistake, all are indeed terrible events.

Obama's reaction will be measured against Reagan's reaction.


NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 4:25am

 steeler wrote:

I have been thinking about that from soon after I heard about the Malaysian airliner being shot down. Interesting to see which parallels are being drawn — and which are not being drawn.

 
Sounds to me like someone stuffed up big time. Awful. 

 
steeler

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Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 3:04am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote: 
I have been thinking about that from soon after I heard about the Malaysian airliner being shot down. Interesting to see which parallels are being drawn — and which are not being drawn.


NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jul 17, 2014 - 11:34pm

 kurtster wrote:

I did so because of what is going to be a direct confrontation with Russia over this  This is going straight to Putin.  It was his missile that brought the plane down.  Either the Russians pushed the button or the separatists did, but its still Putin's missile.  My money as I already said is on the rebels pushing the button.  I think that we can safely eliminate the Ukraine gov itsekf, because who would they be shooting at ?  The rebels don't have jets that fly at 30k feet.

Obama will have to deal with Putin on this, no matter what.  I have little faith in Obama standing up and looking Putin in the eye on this, based upon Obama's performance in foreign policy so far.  Obama by his comments and lack of anything further than the two sentences he uttered so far is showing his fear of dealing with Putin.  Obama's red lines mean absolutely nothing.  His words mean nothing.  He has zero cred internationally.  He's cut Israel loose and left them to defend and decide for themselves.  Israel has zero confidence in Obama.

Part of participating in the poly threads is commenting on things as they happen and drawing conclusions.  I want to see if I'm reading things right before the spin and talking points starts.  One cannot trust their sources implicitly.  This is not about a set up for an I told you so down the road.  It about feeling sure enough about things based upon personal observations and the willingness to put them out as correct, not misinforming or deliberately misleading or biased.

I don't know how Obama is going to deal with this.  However, my money is on him hoping to sweep it under the rug and avoid a scene with Putin.  It will be investigated like everything else and the investigation will last indefinitely providing an out for having to comment on it and go on the record with anything, because its an ongoing investigation and I cannot comment about it until the never ending investigation is over.

And if I wait to offer a comment after things become "official", then I'm just parroting some partisan pundit.  I try to speak for myself and avoid copy / paste as much as possible. 

 
hmm...
islander

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Location: Seattle
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Posted: Jul 17, 2014 - 9:55pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
wow. just wow.
forgive me, SFW 

 

Red_Dragon

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Posted: Jul 17, 2014 - 8:51pm

wow. just wow.


forgive me, SFW 
kurtster

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 17, 2014 - 8:48pm

 ScottN wrote:

kurtster wrote:
....
I drew a conclusion based upon the facts that I saw presented.  I didn't shoot from the hip.
....
You had no way of knowing what the facts actually were when you posted this morning. I criticized your early conclusion and the early/quick assumptions leading to it. 
As I scan news reporting now, there is some difference on what constitutes facts (of responsibility) even now, in the evening.

Of course you're not sorry you find fault in everything Obama does, and then say so.   To walk any of that back now, well...
 
My first post on this wasn't this morning.  The jet was shot down in the morning.  I knew about it within the first hour it was shot down.  I took a nap at about 11 am and woke up at 1 pm to find the markets going nuts.  I didn't post until after 3 pm this afternoon, at least 4 hours after the plane was shot down.  I paid close attention to the news from 1 pm til the time I posted, watching the markets go nuts reacting in the process.  My current endeavors are extremely geopolitically sensitive.  I'm not watching this through a political or emotional filter.  I need to figure things out, ASAP and correctly. 

I trusted my sources.  I was sure enough to say so.  I was right about a missile.  I said it was either the rebels or the Russians themselves that launched it, with my money on the rebels.

Obama, meh ... he's just the sad sideshow that enables all the crazy people in the world to do as they wish in the leadership vacuum he has created, because it is too well known that he will do nothing of substance other than screw the citizens he governs.  The only threat he poses is to Americans, not the rest of the world.  He can't even stop an invasion of our country.  He is useless and worthless as a president.

The markets are already settling down, reflecting a confidence that Obama will do nothing about today's tragedy.  Even Gaza isn't affecting the markets much.  By the middle of next week, the only one's who will be still talking about it will be the Republicans and Fox News.  Everyone else will have moved along, just as Obama already has.  He didn't cancel his two fundraisers tonight.  Every time there is a tragedy, he goes to fundraisers.  That's how Obama gets over tragedies.  That's what he did the day after Benghazi and so many others.  I saw the list this afternoon.  Its an obscenely shameless pattern of behaviour.

Party on Garth !  Party on Barrack !

Goodnight ... 


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