sirdroseph wrote:
Not as much as you might think. Not every transgendered person opts for surgery and hormone therapy isn't that costly.

 ScottFromWyoming wrote: 




Ultimately this is where I am going to come down as well, doesn't mean that much to me personally other than intellectually not understanding. Provided the costly medical expenses involved though it is probably costing us all a good chunk of change in the form of health insurance premiums and taxes.

 BlueHeronDruid wrote: 
I cannot imagine that because I don't even know what it is like to feel like a male.
See this is what I don't understand.  I cannot comprehend identity as a feeling at all anymore than seeing music (and I have experienced synesthesia under the influence of lsd)  or tasting color.  I do not feel like a male or a female and I do not understand the concept at all.  I have feeling and desires for women because I happen to have been born heterosexual, but do not understand the concept of an internal feeling in regards to gender at all, it is just biology.  I mean if I feel like I am black do I have the right to surgically alter myself to look just like an African American and demand to be treated like one in all aspects of society including affirmative action, anti discrimination laws and so forth even though I was not born with the experience of being an African American having my ancestors oppressed and enslaved and so forth just like Rachel Dolenz?  Is it ok for Caitlyn Jenner to be the woman of the year and participate in women's equality events as a woman even though she has been a man most of her life not subject to discrimination that women face? This does not seem fair to me.   I guess this aspect is something I will never understand.  Gender is nothing but biology and social construct based upon that biology, we dress differently for the most part and have different roles based upon our biology and physical appearance something we already have the freedom to completely reject if we want, men are free to dress as women and vice versa. Women and other minorities have fought for and are fighting for equal and interchangeable roles in all aspects of society and more power to them.  Roles are not biology.  Oh well, I guess this is the impasse here.  Thanks for your comments!

 sirdroseph wrote: 
Ok, so sexuality isn't determined by your body parts, so apparently neither is gender. 

I think the real question is what difference does it make to you (or me)? Heck, I have no understanding of what it is like to be a woman born with woman sex organs and I accept that don't have an innate understanding of what it is like to be one who was not.  

 sirdroseph wrote: 
There were a couple of TG people here some years ago. This is what I learned.

It's not about sexuality. It's about identity.

Imagine waking up every morning with male parts, but knowing - not thinking, knowing - that you're actually a girl. A real girl trapped in a boy's body. The whole world sees you like a boy, and treats you like a boy. And inside, you know you're a girl. It's not an opinion. It's a fact. You are a girl inside.

I can't imagine having to live with that.

Posted before, from 2015...
Caitlyn Jenner and Our Cognitive Dissonance
While biology shows us gender can be fluid, our brains struggle to see it that way.

 steeler wrote:
Usually asserted by people who don't actually know nature.
PS: the same argument has of course been used for miscegenation and homosexuality.

 Coaxial wrote: 
Agreed.

I am not following the argument that surgically altering one's gender is suspect because it goes against nature. Many surgical procedures alter our bodies in ways that go against nature. Heart and kidney transplants. Removing a prostate afflicted with cancer. These procedures would be seen by most as beneficial uses of advancements in technology — prolonging life; improving the quality of life. Some might even disagree with these choices. But they are choices, ones I think people are — and should be — free to make.  This strikes me as no different.

 ScottFromWyoming wrote: 
Indeed, if they feel the need to go through that process then more farking power to them. It certainly can't be easy physically or mentally to do so...Much like coming out to the world...Choice my ass...No one would "choose" to be abused by so many.

 sirdroseph wrote: 
Clearly (to me), there's an intensity of feeling that goes beyond anything I can relate to. So for the people who go through with it, I give them a pass, even while I suspect it won't help with the big picture of where that intense feeling comes from. 
 

I have a legitimate question that I struggle with regarding gender.  I have always fully supported the gay and lesbian community; just as racism is irrational so is homophobia.  I have intrinsically understood that since I was the littlest shorty regardless of growing up in a racist and homophobic society.  For me it is about individual freedom of expression and being allowed to simply be what you are, this is being in line with nature.  In other words and I think most here would agree with me that it is cruel and unusual behavior to attempt to externally change ones sexuality, this goes against the laws of nature.  Everyone should be completely uninhibited to express their sexuality whatever that may be as long as the parties are consensual adults.  Perfectly logical, right?  However I struggle mightily when it comes to gender and those that wish to change their gender because of the way they feel.  To me it is hypocritical to on the one hand fight for the right to be what you are and also fight for the right to be what you are not.  Gender, just like sexuality is not a choice, it is a biological fact.  If you are born a man and want to be a woman, you have to surgically alter yourself to achieve this which goes against nature (not religion, I am an agnostic and do not do religion).  You just simply are a woman or a man by virtue of born anatomy, you may like the social construct of what it is to being the different gender, meaning you are born a man but are sexually attracted to men and want to look like a woman and that is fine and I fully support your lifestyle.  Just know you are a gay man who likes women's fashion and all of the other social attributes normally applied to women.  I just do not support going under the knife and changing your anatomy whilst being angry and defensive if someone calls you a man because that is the visual perception they are seeing not to mention the moral implications that modern medical technology has brought where the surgeries have gotten so complete you cannot tell the difference.  Should you tell every future partner of your true birth gender? Of course you should, but I would gather most do not for obvious reasons of fear of losing their partner therefore there is a lot of deceit going on out there. 

Now, I think these are legitimate concerns and not just the rantings of a neanderthal homophobic.  If this is what you see in these comments, then you did not read them very well or are not very good at reading comprehension.  I truly want to know what the mindset is for those that choose to go under the knife and that is the bottom line here.  As I said earlier, I fully support cross dressers and free expression of all sexualities and think a lot of them look really hot, just as long as the end of the day they still got the goods they were born with.   Someone please help me out here without all that silly anger and defensiveness, save that stuff for the ignorant masses.

just heard a blurb about bermuda repealing same sex marriage

say what?

 R_P wrote: 
nope, pretty sure its worse. 

 sirdroseph wrote: 
Pretty sure that's a fallacious argument.

Everything is relative, pretty sure this story is much worse:



http://www.torontosun.com/2017/04/10/chechyna-gay-concentration-camp-horror



A human rights horror has erupted in Chechnya where more than 100 gay men have been rounded up and sent to concentration camps where they’re tortured.

A report by Novoya Gazeta said officials in the dictatorship have told homosexuals if they don’t leave the country they’ll be sent to the camps where they will be killed.

The camps are chillingly reminiscent of the death gulags set up by Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler to exterminate gay men and women during the Second World War.

“Gay people have been detained and rounded up and we are working to evacuate people from the camps and some have now left the region.,” Svetlana Zakharova, from the Russian LGBT Network, told the Daily Mail.

“Those who have escaped said they are detained in the same room and people are kept altogether, around 30 or 40. They are tortured with electric currents and heavily beaten, sometimes to death.”

At least three men have been killed, Zakharova said.

North Carolina Just Tried to Ban Marriage Equality Because “Almighty God” Said So

Lest anyone believed that North Carolina’s fake “repeal” of the odious, transphobic HB2 signaled a turn toward tolerance inside the State Capitol in Raleigh, three Republican lawmakers intend to set the record straight (as it were). As local CBS affiliate WNCN reported Tuesday, three Republican men introduced a bill that aims to declare all same-sex marriages in the Tar Heel State null and void.

The one-page bill is patently unconstitutional, of course, and fundamentally misunderstands the role of the Supreme Court. It claims that the high court has no jurisdiction over how marriage is defined in individual states (it absolutely does), and, more incredibly, that the Supreme Court’s June 2015 decision in Obergefell v. Hodges “exceeds the authority of the Court relative to the decree of Almighty God.” Then the bill quotes Genesis to argue that marriage equality “abrogates the clear meaning and understanding of marriage in all societies throughout prior history.”

The bill is unlikely to pass, and even if it did it would be vetoed by North Carolina’s Democratic Gov. Roy Cooper, the state’s former attorney general who refused to defend HB2 in court. The “Uphold Historical Marriage Act” has been almost universally panned, with the Charlotte Observer rightly noting that the mere introduction of the bill has offered an easy opportunity for the nation to “once again” start “mocking North Carolina.” Even the Republican Speaker of the House, a key sponsor of HB2, said the new bill should be considered dead on arrival. (...)

 aflanigan wrote: 
Only in The Redneck Republic of Derplahoma!

Stolen from the Derplahoma thread:

Cross Dressers in the Building!!!! 

it's a blast if you can get to it

that area of the beach is a nice size, but 130k people take a up a lot of space

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
Saw that episode last week, and wondered if it was another "first" for Star Trek.