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kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 12, 2022 - 8:01pm

 Isabeau wrote:
 

Amazing how so many Republican/Trump followers knee jerk response of "but I'm in favor of exceptions in the case of Rape or Incest," to absolve themselves of a cruel reality in most anti abortion states: 11 States now have trigger laws that ban abortion without exceptions for Rape or Incest.

Others insist a victim file a Police Report before receiving any abortion care. Ectopic Pregnancies require an abortion for the woman to live.

Septic Uterus requires an abortion for the woman to live.

An incomplete miscarriage requires a D&C for the woman to live.


Recently in Ireland, a young woman of 26 was hemorrhaging in her first trimester. Hospitals and the Law prevented her from getting an "abortion."
She literally died. Ireland soon passed rights to abortion. But here in the States, with 400,000 Foster care kids in Texas alone, 11 States have decided women will die. Literally die in hospital corridors from doctors too scared to administer a needed procedure to save her life. Split micro-hairs on Selective Morality and Value of Life anyone? Oooo, let's see what Squirrels you will point out to divert from my point...
 
Those three examples of medical reasons for an abortion make complete sense to me. ANY medical reason where the health of the woman is at risk is a reasonable justification for an abortion as far as I am concerned.   These are not abortions done purely as a means for birth control. 

We are not Ireland.  I remember the abortion ships that used to anchor offshore of Ireland.  Anyone else ?  So what are the states that have laws that ban abortions based on these medical needs and other similar circumstances ? 

I was 20 when Roe v. Wade was decided.  I am fully aware of all of the circumstances involved.  I remember when The Pill was released in the 60's and all of the furor that came with it, not to mention the Sexual Revolution that it helped to facilitate.

It is my understanding that over 2/3rds of the country approves of abortions with some restrictions or limits, including the allowance for rape and incest.  The problem is that the democratic party and I assume you as well, wants unrestricted abortions up to and including partial birth abortions as well as in the case of the previous governor of Virginia who is also an MD, infanticide by allowing the decision to terminate up to 24 hours after birth.  And as just another means of birth control, no different from a condom, the life being aborted means nothing.   And you all wonder why there is pushback ?  Really ?

A reversal of R v W does not end abortion, it sends the decision back to the states where the Constitution since health and medical needs of any kind are addressed in the Constitution. 

We are going to have to start talking to each other and come up with a way to work this out with some kind of limits.  It is well into the 21st Century and we are teaching sexuality beginning in Kindergarten now.  We have the abortion pill, which can end it immediately. 

I dunno, but as long as you and your party push for unrestricted abortion with all of the other options and the universal education in schools going on regarding sex, where is the need for abortion without limits ?  Justify it.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 12, 2022 - 7:19pm

 rgio wrote:
Kurt, you don't really want to discuss, you just want to defend the tribe. 

You use a rare instance (fetus dead/mother not)

 as some sort of barometer to prove Pro-life folks can't make up their mind. 
 

 kurtster wrote:

.

How come if you would say, shoot a pregnant woman and kill the fetus, regardless of whether or not the woman survives, you get charged with murder of the fetus.
 
Once again you twist my words.  So the mother and fetus both die, how does that change my question ?

It is also not rare as you try to state.  There are other ways it happens in cases such as vehicular homicides.

You're the one who doesn't want to discuss the question that I asked.  Fine, then say so.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 12, 2022 - 7:19pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

Riddle me this ... How come if you would say, shoot a pregnant woman and kill the fetus, regardless of whether or not the woman survives, you get charged with murder of the fetus. But a woman can kill or abort the fetus herself and it's no big deal. How is that since a fetus is not considered a person yet ?
You didn't even mention the kicker, where a woman is shot on her way to the clinic. Is it this scenario true? Shoot a pregnant woman, get charged with two murders? Or is it mostly myth? I'd like to see how many first trimester cases were charged. At any rate, I'm sure the word "choice" is involved in the answer.
 

Not a myth.

State Fetal Homicide Laws

Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. At least 29 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation/development," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk (*).

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: May 12, 2022 - 7:06pm

Pennsylvania GOP Senate candidate Kathy Barnette has called for banning Islam in America and said LGBTQ people 'lead with their sexual preference'
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 9:46pm

 kurtster wrote:

Riddle me this ...

How come if you would say, shoot a pregnant woman and kill the fetus, regardless of whether or not the woman survives, you get charged with murder of the fetus.

But a woman can kill or abort the fetus herself and it's no big deal.

How is that since a fetus is not considered a person yet ?


You didn't even mention the kicker, where a woman is shot on her way to the clinic.

Is it this scenario true? Shoot a pregnant woman, get charged with two murders? Or is it mostly myth? I'd like to see how many first trimester cases were charged. At any rate, I'm sure the word "choice" is involved in the answer.
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 8:25pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:


Okay; if it begins at conception then why can't a fetus be declared a dependent with the IRS?


And it’s unemployable, so benefits!
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: May 11, 2022 - 4:08pm

Define (maculate) conception...

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: May 11, 2022 - 3:51pm

 Steely_D wrote:

I think what's important here is that we don't need to debate when life starts. It's been legislated by a group of people based on their (non-medical) thoughts.

Now women can just realize that they don't have a say in the topic; there isn't a choice.

Politicians from the "Smaller Government Interference, Live Free or Die, America is a Christian Nation" party have decided and that's that.




Okay; if it begins at conception then why can't a fetus be declared a dependent with the IRS?
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 2:02pm

I think what's important here is that we don't need to debate when life starts. It's been legislated by a group of people based on their (non-medical) thoughts.

Now women can just realize that they don't have a say in the topic; there isn't a choice.

Politicians from the "Smaller Government Interference, Live Free or Die, America is a Christian Nation" party have decided and that's that.


rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 1:04pm

 kurtster wrote:
You just want to posture and virtue signal is all.

Kurt, you don't really want to discuss, you just want to defend the tribe.  You use a rare instance (fetus dead/mother not) as some sort of barometer to prove Pro-life folks can't make up their mind.  It's not inconsistency, it's an appreciation for the complexity that every single situation brings to this discussion.

There is no virtue signaling on the left for this argument.  Nobody who supports choice does so with a high-five and disregard for what could have been...that's what the pro-life folks do.  They grab on to the virtue of protecting the unborn as some sort of "free pass" to being unkind, insensitive, and unempathetic toward those around them.  I stopped being a Republican because I couldn't support the hypocrisy.

I'll leave you to Isabeau's questions.... 

Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 1:03pm

 R_P wrote:

The "legislating morality" chorus has gone quiet too: "Uhm, it's complicated."



So goes the Sunday talking heads trying to run for political cover. Mitch Machiavellian McConnell has already showed some of his cards by saying when the Republicans win back the Senate and House, there will be legislation for a nationwide ban.

Women are the new Jews to the NeoNazi Republican party. Mass schools shootings are the 'price we pay for freedom,' but women's lives are dispensable.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: May 11, 2022 - 12:57pm

The "legislating morality" chorus has gone quiet too: "Uhm, it's complicated."
Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 12:52pm

 kurtster wrote:


Amazing how so many Republican/Trump followers knee jerk response of "but I'm in favor of exceptions in the case of Rape or Incest," to absolve themselves of a cruel reality in most anti abortion states:

11 States now have trigger laws that ban abortion without exceptions for Rape or Incest.

Others insist a victim file a Police Report before receiving any abortion care.

Ectopic Pregnancies require an abortion for the woman to live.

Septic Uterus requires an abortion for the woman to live.

An incomplete miscarriage requires a D&C for the woman to live.


Recently in Ireland, a young woman of 26 was hemorrhaging in her first trimester. Hospitals and the Law prevented her from getting an "abortion."
She literally died. Ireland soon passed rights to abortion.

But here in the States, with 400,000 Foster care kids in Texas alone, 11 States have decided women will die. Literally die in hospital corridors from doctors too scared to administer a needed procedure to save her life.

Split micro-hairs on Selective Morality and Value of Life anyone?

Oooo, let's see what Squirrels you will point out to divert from my point...


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 10:16am

 rgio wrote:
So your answer is "I know life begins at conception, but someone else should figure out what that means for the rights and support of the child"? 
It's a very "conservative" posture now to isolate the "wrong", call out the evil, but ignore the impact of the "solution".  It's like Obamacare...terrible, yet no reasonable alternative provided in the decade since by the Republicans. 
Not only do

you want to force the mother to have a child,
.
but you want her to raise it on her own, without government assistance or even a maternity leave that rivals other countries.   Why do you fight so hard for an unborn child that will be ignored, unwanted, and is statistically likely to participate in crime by the time they are a teenager? I have come to accept that the person making such a difficult choice is doing so for their own good, and ultimately that benefits everyone.  It's an isolated example, but who am I to tell someone that was raped that they have to deal with the consequences forever because I want to defend an organism with no viability on its own.
 
No, no, and no.

I have said nothing of the kind, anywhere, ever.  What I have said over and over again, is that it is a personal choice of the mother (can I still say mother ?) and safe medical care should be available should the mother opt for that choice.  I am pro choice in that regard, but that does not mean I am pro abortion.  I have no problem with abortion in the cases of rape and incest as I have also stated over and over again.

Quit putting words in my mouth that I have never, ever said.

I am just asking a question. A valid question that sooner or later will have to be decided on a national level.  How do you rectify the situation / dilemma I have described, which you just keep dancing around ?
.
 black321 wrote:


There is the real biological argument of, "When does human life start, and deserve legal rights/consideration?"

But I don't think either side is interested, 

 
I put you in that camp.  You just want to posture and virtue signal is all.

I just tried to ask the real question no one wants to discuss and until we do, we will stay where we are and more than likely we will soon end up with a dead SCOTUS justice or two.  And that will give Biden some more vacancies to fill.

Yeah, anybody have any good recipes for banana bread ?

Later, much ...
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 6:03am

anybody got any good bread recipes?
like a simple bake and brake?
you may butter either side of said bread to your heart's desire
because doctor my eyes
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 5:53am

 kurtster wrote:

That implies that both are acts of murder.  Is that what you meant to say ?

This is a real question and not a hypothetical as this conundrum does exist.  Sooner or later this has to be resolved.

FWIW, I do believe that life begins at conception.  At what point do we give that life rights ?  Another real question that I will admit is above my pay grade to answer.

The pro choice side says that this new life has no rights until after birth yet assigns rights to it if terminated by someone other than the pregnant woman.  And then what about terminating that life by a surrogate host ?  Do the embryo makers have any rights in the decision given no medical or health reasons for termination ?  I don't know this answer either.

Whatever, this is what happens when we keep kicking the can down the road.  Sooner or later you run out of road.

Back to you ...

So your answer is "I know life begins at conception, but someone else should figure out what that means for the rights and support of the child"? 


It's a very "conservative" posture now to isolate the "wrong", call out the evil, but ignore the impact of the "solution".  It's like Obamacare...terrible, yet no reasonable alternative provided in the decade since by the Republicans.  Not only do you want to force the mother to have a child, but you want her to raise it on her own, without government assistance or even a maternity leave that rivals other countries.   Why do you fight so hard for an unborn child that will be ignored, unwanted, and is statistically likely to participate in crime by the time they are a teenager?

I have come to accept that the person making such a difficult choice is doing so for their own good, and ultimately that benefits everyone.  It's an isolated example, but who am I to tell someone that was raped that they have to deal with the consequences forever because I want to defend an organism with no viability on its own.
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 1:54am

 kurtster wrote:

Well since you put it that way ...

Riddle me this ...

How come if you would say, shoot a pregnant woman and kill the fetus, regardless of whether or not the woman survives, you get charged with murder of the fetus.

But a woman can kill or abort the fetus herself and it's no big deal.

How is that since a fetus is not considered a person yet ?

Pretty simple in my mind, killing a fetus isn't murder. Those laws are part of the anti-abortion long game. However, depriving a pregnant woman of the choice of carrying her pregnancy to term is a very serious crime, no matter what you call it.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 10:03pm

 rgio wrote:

You made a lot of statements (and my questions to you presume the following) ....but if it makes you feel better, Yes,  the fetus is a person from conception.  Are you providing benefits? FWIW...you do agree with the person status of a fetus?
 
Below is the question that I asked.  I do not see an answer to that question.
 kurtster wrote:

How come if you would say, shoot a pregnant woman and kill the fetus, regardless of whether or not the woman survives, you get charged with murder of the fetus.

But a woman can kill or abort the fetus herself and it's no big deal.

How is that since a fetus is not considered a person yet ?


How come one situation is murder and the other is not when the end result is the same ?  
Or by what you say is the answer to my question ...

Yes,  the fetus is a person from conception. 
 
That implies that both are acts of murder.  Is that what you meant to say ?

This is a real question and not a hypothetical as this conundrum does exist.  Sooner or later this has to be resolved.

FWIW, I do believe that life begins at conception.  At what point do we give that life rights ?  Another real question that I will admit is above my pay grade to answer.

The pro choice side says that this new life has no rights until after birth yet assigns rights to it if terminated by someone other than the pregnant woman.  And then what about terminating that life by a surrogate host ?  Do the embryo makers have any rights in the decision given no medical or health reasons for termination ?  I don't know this answer either.

Whatever, this is what happens when we keep kicking the can down the road.  Sooner or later you run out of road.

Back to you ...
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 1:12pm

 kurtster wrote:


You only answered my question with another question.
.
So how about you answer my question first.  Then I'll answer yours.

You made a lot of statements (and my questions to you presume the following) ....but if it makes you feel better, Yes,  the fetus is a person from conception.  Are you providing benefits?

FWIW...you do agree with the person status of a fetus?

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 1:06pm

 rgio wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

I asked the question.  Mine was not rhetorical while yours is.

It's not rhetorical.  If you are going to assign the protections of a living child, don't you have to provide benefits to the child and their family?  
 

You only answered my question with another question.
.
So how about you answer my question first.  Then I'll answer yours.
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