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ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 29, 2017 - 9:01am

 maryte wrote:
I guess I just feel that if I have *enough* money, I don't need *more* money - does that qualify me as "present company"?  {#Laughing}

 
Yeah but the impunity thing is even more tempting. Not having to worry about screwing up holds a lot of appeal for some of us f'ups... 
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 29, 2017 - 8:54am

 black321 wrote:

Seems too much of this relates to why they voted Trump, instead of Hil, and not why they still support him.

What I hear is the liberal media argument.  The media is "fooling" the public into believing that Trump is this evil troll...and that the reality is Trump just wants to do what's right for America.  He doesnt want to stop immigration, just enforce our rules and higher hurdles from any suspect countries. They want lower taxes.  They want jobs to come back to the US.  And some of them want to do as much damage to DC as possible...but not all of them.  They are willing to give him a pass on the misogynist, racist and other missteps, as they dont believe he is serious about any of it.  They like that he calls out the extreme left.  There is some truth to this argument.  I always say, most of his supporters are asking a lot of the right questions, but Trump is the wrong answer. 

edit, I would add...and how the media and left are ruining the country by sabotaging trump.

 
I don't think there's a simple answer, but I think part of it is rationalization, something all of us humans are good at. We find a narrative to justify our biases, find scapegoats to shoulder the blame for disappointments and things that anger us. In doing this, it's all too easy to put aside whatever tendency towards rationality and clear thinking we may possess. 

Finding common ground, finding an agreed upon consensus of reality and morality, is something that observers have noted seems to have become increasingly difficult, hand in hand with the increased political polarization of the electorate. 
maryte

maryte Avatar

Location: Blinding You With Library Science!
Gender: Female


Posted: Aug 29, 2017 - 8:30am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

In other news, a woman just won 3/4 of a billion dollars playing the lottery. We all wish it were us and are tempted to be a little bit resentful, but she's proof that the system might just work out for us in the end, too. People don't want to tell Trump NO because they imagine what it would be like to be able to go thru life with more money than god, plus the power and impunity to do Any Goddam Thing he wants. He's living a fantasy life. Our fantasy life. If he has to stop, then we have to stop dreaming. 
  
Y'know, present company excluded, etc. ;-)

 

I guess I just feel that if I have *enough* money, I don't need *more* money - does that qualify me as "present company"?  {#Laughing}
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 29, 2017 - 8:27am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

In other news, a woman just won 3/4 of a billion dollars playing the lottery. We all wish it were us and are tempted to be a little bit resentful, but she's proof that the system might just work out for us in the end, too. People don't want to tell Trump NO because they imagine what it would be like to be able to go thru life with more money than god, plus the power and impunity to do Any Goddam Thing he wants. He's living a fantasy life. Our fantasy life. If he has to stop, then we have to stop dreaming. 
  
Y'know, present company excluded, etc. ;-)

 
You know, at first i read this and thought it was far fetched.  Then I thought of one friend who I describe as a Trump apologist..and he always had admiration for Trump and his family.  They come across as a "golden family."  Look how polite the daughter is, and the boys dress nice...he cant be that bad if he raised good kids like them (i've heard him say).  So, that may be it.  They cant understand how a guy who made a lot of $ and raised respectable kids can be bad.  After all, isnt that what America is all about?  Making $ and looking good?


ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 29, 2017 - 8:17am

 Beanie wrote:

I just don't understand why, in the face of overwhelming evidence that this man is nothing but a continuous series of smoke/mirrors/more smoke/more mirrors that they continue to stand by him!  Even when it's clear that he's a racist, a bigot, a misogynist, a xenophobe and unrepentantly self-interested, they still support him.    

 
In other news, a woman just won 3/4 of a billion dollars playing the lottery. We all wish it were us and are tempted to be a little bit resentful, but she's proof that the system might just work out for us in the end, too. People don't want to tell Trump NO because they imagine what it would be like to be able to go thru life with more money than god, plus the power and impunity to do Any Goddam Thing he wants. He's living a fantasy life. Our fantasy life. If he has to stop, then we have to stop dreaming. 
  
Y'know, present company excluded, etc. ;-)
Beanie

Beanie Avatar

Location: under the jellicle moon
Gender: Female


Posted: Aug 29, 2017 - 8:02am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 Beanie wrote:

Ok, so I read Hillbilly Elegy, and I read this article and a dozen others like It.  I still don't get it.  I simply don't get what his supporters actually think he's going to do for him.  The fact is that he WANTS to be authoritarian and only the decency of people like John McCain are holding him in check.  He HASN'T upheld the disenfranchised, he isn't concerning himself with the  needs of the underclass, he hasn't proposed a simgle policy that will benefit the economy, our security or social welfare.  He's done one thing: promote his brand.  And in doing so, he's placed  unqualified sycophants in positions of authority, endangered the lives of countless minorities, refugees and gays, pissed off every single one of our allies, and encouraged distrust of the educated and socially conscious.

 So tell me, exactly, what these people think this man is going to DO for them?  

And please attempt do it without saying "Hillary", "liberal media", or "Islamist radicals", if you want me to actually take you seriously.  

Bravo for making the attempt, but reading a book or an article in The Atlantic isn't going to get you there. You're going to have to talk to some actual humans, and by talk I mean listen.

I don't know your circle of friends but it sounds like you have surrounded yourself with people who think like you do. Not a criticism, it's a perfectly human trait. Very few of us thrive on conflict and it's nice feeling part of a tribe. But if you're serious about the project of understanding the people who gave us President Trump you're going to have to make yourself uncomfortable.

I live in a college town and my wife's family are largely academics, and most of my online friends are lefties, but most of the people I rub elbows with day to day are conservatives. And yes, I have friends who voted for Trump. Still have friends who voted for Trump. And recently I got to spend a day with one traveling to a dance camp.

He's a decent human being, no animosity toward anyone that I can detect. Most of the issues Trump raised in the campaign were a big yawn to him; he's kinda sympathetic to the argument that illegal immigration is too high (even tho he lives, like me, in Montana where it really isn't an issue he's going to confront on a daily basis) but he's been made so cynical by politics that he assumes any promise made in a campaign is a just grandstanding. But he voted for Trump, as he put it, as a matter of survival.

He owns a trucking business, and he's very good at it. Knows what things cost and how much he's got to make to keep the lights on, how many trips it'll take before that new trailer is paid for, which jobs are money-makers and which to turn down. And he figures Obamacare added a dollar a mile to his costs.

He saw Hillary's proposals as a direct threat to his livelihood, and yes, he actually went and read all those position papers. Sorry, Trump exists in a context that can't be ignored. Without Hillary we don't get Trump, so discussing Trump voters without reference to the main opposition makes no sense.

I haven't talked to him in a few months so I haven't heard how he feels about the results overall, but he's probably OK with it, as (like most people) the implications of withdrawing from the TPP or NAFTA are too abstract and white supremacists aren't marching down our streets. He pays attention to politics only when forced to. He just wants to dance, drive his truck, pay for his kids' college, and make it to retirement. Get in the way of those things and you'll get his attention, otherwise he's too busy.

That's just one example. Most of my coworkers voted for the slimy bastard and most of them held their noses to do it. You can argue that they were manipulated, that Hillary was harmless, that they just need their own interests explained to them but that infantilizes them. They are grown-ups capable of seeing their own interests, and Trump aligned better with them than Hillary and our political infrastructure works very hard at making that binary the only option.

That decision, simple as it looks, was the result of a far more complex calculation than an article in a magazine or a post on a rock&roll radio website can possibly explore. I wouldn't give up that avenue to understanding but a far more direct path is thru the lives of the people you want to understand. Talk to them. Listen. If you don't you will never convince them to change their minds.

 
Well, and I guess that's my point.  I *DO* talk with people who voted for Trump.  And they all say the same thing..."Well but Hilary Clinton..." and "Well, but THEY (the ubiquitous "they") ignore us and don't listen".  OK, yeah, I get it, I tell them.  You need to be heard.  But THEN what???  Like, exactly HOW are Trump supporters better off today than yesterday, except that now they have someone who they can blame OUT LOUD for the fact that society is changing and evolving and that scares them???  To a person, they have made the same argument..."well, but someone has to do something for us, the insurance companies/ the factories/ the "system" is destroying me."  And they can't, ot refuse to, or at least DON'T understand that his so-called "policies" not only don't solve those problems but actually will leave them WORSE OFF. than before he got here.

I mean, I freaking wrote an article about this a year and a half ago.  http://beaniegrrl.blogspot.com/2016/03/its-not-about-nail.html
It's not that I don't understand that they feel left behind.  I just don't understand why, in the face of overwhelming evidence that this man is nothing but a continuous series of smoke/mirrors/more smoke/more mirrors that they continue to stand by him!  Even when it's clear that he's a racist, a bigot, a misogynist, a xenophobe and unrepentantly self-interested, they still support him.  Even when it's clear that they are getting painted with his brush. 

I'm just shaking my head, I guess.  I had hoped perhaps that folks would have opened their eyes by now. 

Hell, if it's just a matter of listening and saying "you poor bastard", have them call me.  I'll listen.  And I won't steal their wallets while I'm there.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 29, 2017 - 7:50am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 Bravo for making the attempt, but reading a book or an article in The Atlantic isn't going to get you there. You're going to have to talk to some actual humans, and by talk I mean listen.

I don't know your circle of friends but it sounds like you have surrounded yourself with people who think like you do. Not a criticism, it's a perfectly human trait. Very few of us thrive on conflict and it's nice feeling part of a tribe. But if you're serious about the project of understanding the people who gave us President Trump you're going to have to make yourself uncomfortable.

I live in a college town and my wife's family are largely academics, and most of my online friends are lefties, but most of the people I rub elbows with day to day are conservatives. And yes, I have friends who voted for Trump. Still have friends who voted for Trump. And recently I got to spend a day with one traveling to a dance camp.

He's a decent human being, no animosity toward anyone that I can detect. Most of the issues Trump raised in the campaign were a big yawn to him; he's kinda sympathetic to the argument that illegal immigration is too high (even tho he lives, like me, in Montana where it really isn't an issue he's going to confront on a daily basis) but he's been made so cynical by politics that he assumes any promise made in a campaign is a just grandstanding. But he voted for Trump, as he put it, as a matter of survival.

He owns a trucking business, and he's very good at it. Knows what things cost and how much he's got to make to keep the lights on, how many trips it'll take before that new trailer is paid for, which jobs are money-makers and which to turn down. And he figures Obamacare added a dollar a mile to his costs.

He saw Hillary's proposals as a direct threat to his livelihood, and yes, he actually went and read all those position papers. Sorry, Trump exists in a context that can't be ignored. Without Hillary we don't get Trump, so discussing Trump voters without reference to the main opposition makes no sense.

I haven't talked to him in a few months so I haven't heard how he feels about the results overall, but he's probably OK with it, as (like most people) the implications of withdrawing from the TPP or NAFTA are too abstract and white supremacists aren't marching down our streets. He pays attention to politics only when forced to. He just wants to dance, drive his truck, pay for his kids' college, and make it to retirement. Get in the way of those things and you'll get his attention, otherwise he's too busy.

That's just one example. Most of my coworkers voted for the slimy bastard and most of them held their noses to do it. You can argue that they were manipulated, that Hillary was harmless, that they just need their own interests explained to them but that infantilizes them. They are grown-ups capable of seeing their own interests, and Trump aligned better with them than Hillary and our political infrastructure works very hard at making that binary the only option.

That decision, simple as it looks, was the result of a far more complex calculation than an article in a magazine or a post on a rock&roll radio website can possibly explore. I wouldn't give up that avenue to understanding but a far more direct path is thru the lives of the people you want to understand. Talk to them. Listen. If you don't you will never convince them to change their minds.

 
Seems too much of this relates to why they voted Trump, instead of Hil, and not why they still support him.

What I hear is the liberal media argument.  The media is "fooling" the public into believing that Trump is this evil troll...and that the reality is Trump just wants to do what's right for America.  He doesnt want to stop immigration, just enforce our rules and higher hurdles from any suspect countries. They want lower taxes.  They want jobs to come back to the US.  And some of them want to do as much damage to DC as possible...but not all of them.  They are willing to give him a pass on the misogynist, racist and other missteps, as they dont believe he is serious about any of it.  They like that he calls out the extreme left.  There is some truth to this argument.  I always say, most of his supporters are asking a lot of the right questions, but Trump is the wrong answer. 

edit, I would add...and how the media and left are ruining the country by sabotaging trump.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 29, 2017 - 7:18am

 Beanie wrote:

Ok, so I read Hillbilly Elegy, and I read this article and a dozen others like It.  I still don't get it.  I simply don't get what his supporters actually think he's going to do for him.  The fact is that he WANTS to be authoritarian and only the decency of people like John McCain are holding him in check.  He HASN'T upheld the disenfranchised, he isn't concerning himself with the  needs of the underclass, he hasn't proposed a simgle policy that will benefit the economy, our security or social welfare.  He's done one thing: promote his brand.  And in doing so, he's placed  unqualified sycophants in positions of authority, endangered the lives of countless minorities, refugees and gays, pissed off every single one of our allies, and encouraged distrust of the educated and socially conscious.

 So tell me, exactly, what these people think this man is going to DO for them?  

And please attempt do it without saying "Hillary", "liberal media", or "Islamist radicals", if you want me to actually take you seriously.  

Bravo for making the attempt, but reading a book or an article in The Atlantic isn't going to get you there. You're going to have to talk to some actual humans, and by talk I mean listen.

I don't know your circle of friends but it sounds like you have surrounded yourself with people who think like you do. Not a criticism, it's a perfectly human trait. Very few of us thrive on conflict and it's nice feeling part of a tribe. But if you're serious about the project of understanding the people who gave us President Trump you're going to have to make yourself uncomfortable.

I live in a college town and my wife's family are largely academics, and most of my online friends are lefties, but most of the people I rub elbows with day to day are conservatives. And yes, I have friends who voted for Trump. Still have friends who voted for Trump. And recently I got to spend a day with one traveling to a dance camp.

He's a decent human being, no animosity toward anyone that I can detect. Most of the issues Trump raised in the campaign were a big yawn to him; he's kinda sympathetic to the argument that illegal immigration is too high (even tho he lives, like me, in Montana where it really isn't an issue he's going to confront on a daily basis) but he's been made so cynical by politics that he assumes any promise made in a campaign is a just grandstanding. But he voted for Trump, as he put it, as a matter of survival.

He owns a trucking business, and he's very good at it. Knows what things cost and how much he's got to make to keep the lights on, how many trips it'll take before that new trailer is paid for, which jobs are money-makers and which to turn down. And he figures Obamacare added a dollar a mile to his costs.

He saw Hillary's proposals as a direct threat to his livelihood, and yes, he actually went and read all those position papers. Sorry, Trump exists in a context that can't be ignored. Without Hillary we don't get Trump, so discussing Trump voters without reference to the main opposition makes no sense.

I haven't talked to him in a few months so I haven't heard how he feels about the results overall, but he's probably OK with it, as (like most people) the implications of withdrawing from the TPP or NAFTA are too abstract and white supremacists aren't marching down our streets. He pays attention to politics only when forced to. He just wants to dance, drive his truck, pay for his kids' college, and make it to retirement. Get in the way of those things and you'll get his attention, otherwise he's too busy.

That's just one example. Most of my coworkers voted for the slimy bastard and most of them held their noses to do it. You can argue that they were manipulated, that Hillary was harmless, that they just need their own interests explained to them but that infantilizes them. They are grown-ups capable of seeing their own interests, and Trump aligned better with them than Hillary and our political infrastructure works very hard at making that binary the only option.

That decision, simple as it looks, was the result of a far more complex calculation than an article in a magazine or a post on a rock&roll radio website can possibly explore. I wouldn't give up that avenue to understanding but a far more direct path is thru the lives of the people you want to understand. Talk to them. Listen. If you don't you will never convince them to change their minds.
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 8:38pm

 Beanie wrote:

Ok, so I read Hillbilly Elegy, and I read this article and a dozen others like It.  I still don't get it.  I simply don't get what his supporters actually think he's going to do for him.  The fact is that he WANTS to be authoritarian and only the decency of people like John McCain are holding him in check.  He HASN'T upheld the disenfranchised, he isn't concerning himself with the  needs of the underclass, he hasn't proposed a simgle policy that will benefit the economy, our security or social welfare.  He's done one thing: promote his brand.  And in doing so, he's placed  unqualified sycophants in positions of authority, endangered the lives of countless minorities, refugees and gays, pissed off every single one of our allies, and encouraged distrust of the educated and socially conscious.

 So tell me, exactly, what these people think this man is going to DO for them?  

And please attempt do it without saying "Hillary", "liberal media", or "Islamist radicals", if you want me to actually take you seriously.  

 

"So tell me, exactly, what these people think this man is going to DO for them?"


They don't necessarily think he's going to do anything for them. Trump is the reverse side of his supporters' complaints about being politically, socially and economically marginalized: he's THEM (they think) except since Trump's powerful, successful, and rich, he's in the center of the action. He's a Superman for people who are socially conservative, mistrustful of big government and career politicians, and doubtful that government programs like Obamacare are ever going to help them. When Trump calls for draining the swamp in DC, tearing up trade agreements, walling out immigrants, locking up Hillary, bringing back coal, etc., Trump is basically listing the things that his supporters would do if they could rip up the political system and rule the country as kings. He's the embodiment of their Walter Mitty dreams of handing out payback. 

Trump has that attitude of being a king, all-powerful, able to pardon anyone he wants, immune to prosecution and impeachment. Trump is a 6' 4" middle finger to all the people who (supposedly) ignored and looked down on his supporters. The swagger, the insults, the promises: that's good enough for his supporters. He's the guy who walked onto the set of a boring, snotty TV show and yelled "F*CK THIS BULLS**T!"

Or as Clive Crook put it:


 "They may not admire the man, but he's on their side, he vents their frustration, he afflicts the people who think so little of them — and that's good enough."



Richard Wright's deliberately sensationalized novel, "Native Son", turns on a similar public eruption of defiance, an act that promises to be suicidal for the main character. I remember reading the novel and being shocked, then dismissive. Why would the main character throw away the possibility of mercy and physical survival by rejecting the terms of his captors? Eventually it dawned on me: because that moment of defiance was an act of asserting himself, of claiming an independent identity that wasn't forced on him by white oppressors.  

Does that make Trump's supporters idiots or bigots? No. As I wrote to kurtster, though, it's self-defeating when people don't expect their elected president to actually do something to help their lives. Even hardcore supporters of past presidents have softened in support of their guy when his programs stall in Congress and his party loses seats in the mid-term elections. A president should do more than bellyache and brag about make-believe accomplishments. 

I can understand why people feel frustrated and marginalized by our politics, society and economy but frankly I think their votes for Trump are a f**king waste. They could have voted for someone who actually was going to make their lives better and make their voices heard. All they have now is a pointless, incompetent narcissist.

Trump suckered a whole bunch of people again.
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 7:42pm

 Beanie wrote:

Ok, so I read Hillbilly Elegy, and I read this article and a dozen others like It.  I still don't get it.  I simply don't get what his supporters actually think he's going to do for him.  The fact is that he WANTS to be authoritarian and only the decency of people like John McCain are holding him in check.  He HASN'T upheld the disenfranchised, he isn't concerning himself with the  needs of the underclass, he hasn't proposed a simgle policy that will benefit the economy, our security or social welfare.  He's done one thing: promote his brand.  And in doing so, he's placed  unqualified sycophants in positions of authority, endangered the live story of countless minorities, refugees and gays, pissed off every single one of our allies, and encouraged distrust of the educated and socially conscious.

 So tell me, exactly, what these people think this man is going to DO for them?  

And please attempt do it without saying "Hillary", "liberal media", or "Islamist radicals", if you want me to actually take you seriously.  

 
+1
Beanie

Beanie Avatar

Location: under the jellicle moon
Gender: Female


Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 7:39pm

 sirdroseph wrote:
This is a terrific article written from a liberal point of view which makes it even more interesting and imo very important: sorry hyperlinks or anything other than text do not work for me on this site when I am at work: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-28/why-people-still-support-trump

 
Ok, so I read Hillbilly Elegy, and I read this article and a dozen others like It.  I still don't get it.  I simply don't get what his supporters actually think he's going to do for him.  The fact is that he WANTS to be authoritarian and only the decency of people like John McCain are holding him in check.  He HASN'T upheld the disenfranchised, he isn't concerning himself with the  needs of the underclass, he hasn't proposed a simgle policy that will benefit the economy, our security or social welfare.  He's done one thing: promote his brand.  And in doing so, he's placed  unqualified sycophants in positions of authority, endangered the lives of countless minorities, refugees and gays, pissed off every single one of our allies, and encouraged distrust of the educated and socially conscious.

 So tell me, exactly, what these people think this man is going to DO for them?  

And please attempt do it without saying "Hillary", "liberal media", or "Islamist radicals", if you want me to actually take you seriously.  


kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
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Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 4:42pm

 aflanigan wrote:

Yes, I suppose I should have used a qualifier such as "some" or "often" or many" when speaking about Trump supporters. Thanks for holding me to a higher standard than a paid op ed writer.

Crook commits the same sin of generalization you complain about in characterizing the media and public opinion reactions to Trumps political base as "bund their views . . . reflexively into packages labelled "bigotry" and "stupidity". His assertion that the Trump base's opinions are not given a hearing utterly ignores the journalists who are out there doing just that (Nicholas Kristof would be one example).

Crook won't be the first op ed writer to be guilty of hypocrisy/double standard, but if he's out to scold his own fraternity, he should try and make sure he's not throwing stones from a glass house.


 
As the only open Trump supporter still here, wouldn't my acceptance of the writer's assessment be of more value than anyone else's ?  He's  trying to explain how people like me feel about things to people like you.  That is all that matters.  

Go ahead and attack the messenger and ignore the message at your own peril.

Your Kristof link takes it in a slightly different direction, though reasonable, Crook's is more to the point if you want to consider the actual thoughts of most Trump supporters.


kcar

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Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 3:59pm

 maryte wrote:
A verbatim post from a small business owner in the Houston area (emphasis on #3 is mine):

Things non-Houstonians need to understand:

1. The streets and many of the public parks here are designed to flood. We sit just 35 feet above sea level, and most of the city is as flat as a pool table. We average about 50 inches of rain a year. The streets and parks serve as temporary retention ponds, accommodating slow, steady drainage through our bayous.

2. We average about 50 inches of rain a year, but in the last 48 hours, many areas of greater Houston received 25 to 30 inches of rain. That's six to nine month's worth of rain, in two days. The drainage system, which works well in normal conditions, was overwhelmed. Officials are calling this an "800 year flood": that means there was a one in 800 chance of its occurrence. Even with advance notice, there was little means of preparing for this.

3. It is impossible to evacuate a city the size of Houston. Harris County is 1700+ square miles, with a population of 6.5 million people. How do you evacuate 6.5 million people? During the hours leading to Hurricane Rita's landfall, tens of thousands of Houstonians attempted evacuation. The traffic jams lasted for days. One hundred people died. So far, six Houstonians have died in Hurricane Harvey, all of them (as far as I have heard) drowned in their automobiles. For more than a decade, the local mantra has been "shelter in place and hunker down." That's hard, but it's the right approach.

4. Some outsiders are treating this disaster with schadenfreude: Texans helped elect an anti-big government president, and now we're going to need big government help. Houston is the bluest spot in Texas, and voted Clinton in 2016. Suggesting this is karmic payback for backing Trump is as inaccurate (and offensive) as Pat Robertson's suggestion that Hurricane Katrina was God smiting sinners. We really aren't thinking Red or Blue right now. We are taking a royal beating, all of us. Disasters don't care about ideology.

5. You are going to feel this. Gas prices are going to skyrocket. Oil refined products, everything from PVC pipe to dry cleaning fluid, will rise in price. The stock market will take a hit. New Orleans is a fantastic city, but it's not a major economic force. Houston is the center of the nation's energy industry. It's home to dozens of Fortune 500 companies. And 85% of it is under water. It may be this way for weeks. The aftermath of Katrina captured the world's attention. The aftermath of Harvey is going to grab you by the lapels, and shake you 'til you're cross eyed.



 
Very good observation on point 3. Streets and parks as temporary retention ponds—OMG. That's a new concept for me. 

Is Houston really bluer than Austin? I never would have guessed, since most cities and areas heavily involved with the petroleum industry are conservative. 

This article disagrees with the business owner's point 5 about the economic effects of Harvey: 


Markets Are Signaling That Hurricane Harvey Won’t Crush the Economy



VV

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Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 3:39pm

I know that Houston and it's surroundings are the focus right now but I had to post this article with Biden's thoughts. If only Biden instead of Clinton...
 
 
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/joe-biden-after-charlottesville/538128/


SeriousLee

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Location: Dans l'milieu d'deux milles livres


Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 3:12pm

CarTrump


Lazy8

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Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 2:38pm

 aflanigan wrote:
Yes, I suppose I should have used a qualifier such as "some" or "often" or many" when speaking about Trump supporters. Thanks for holding me to a higher standard than a paid op ed writer.

Crook commits the same sin of generalization you complain about in characterizing the media and public opinion reactions to Trumps political base as "bund their views . . . reflexively into packages labelled "bigotry" and "stupidity". His assertion that the Trump base's opinions are not given a hearing utterly ignores the journalists who are out there doing just that (Nicholas Kristof would be one example).

Crook won't be the first op ed writer to be guilty of hypocrisy/double standard, but if he's out to scold his own fraternity, he should try and make sure he's not throwing stones from a glass house.

The point of the article isn't to scold Trump supporters but to explain their existence to people failing to understand it. Nicholas Kristof (in the very article you linked to) points out just how common that failure is in the left corner of our politics.

Yes, people like Kristof exist. They're the exception, not the rule—and what they're saying is falling on deaf ears.
aflanigan

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Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 2:10pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
 aflanigan wrote:
It has at least one glaring flaw. It places the onus of not generalizing and applying easy labels solely on Trump opponents. Trump supporters engage in the same generalizations and stereotyping of people they disagree with.

It also fails to condemn the Armenian genocide and doesn't list a single member of the Canadian Parliament.

I'm sure some Trump supporters engage in exactly the kind of behavior you're pointing out, but to make that (ahem) generalization about them is exactly why you should have paid better attention reading the article.

 
Yes, I suppose I should have used a qualifier such as "some" or "often" or many" when speaking about Trump supporters. Thanks for holding me to a higher standard than a paid op ed writer.

Crook commits the same sin of generalization you complain about in characterizing the media and public opinion reactions to Trumps political base as "bund their views . . . reflexively into packages labelled "bigotry" and "stupidity". His assertion that the Trump base's opinions are not given a hearing utterly ignores the journalists who are out there doing just that (Nicholas Kristof would be one example).

Crook won't be the first op ed writer to be guilty of hypocrisy/double standard, but if he's out to scold his own fraternity, he should try and make sure he's not throwing stones from a glass house.

Lazy8

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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 1:40pm

 aflanigan wrote:
It has at least one glaring flaw. It places the onus of not generalizing and applying easy labels solely on Trump opponents. Trump supporters engage in the same generalizations and stereotyping of people they disagree with.

It also fails to condemn the Armenian genocide and doesn't list a single member of the Canadian Parliament.

I'm sure some Trump supporters engage in exactly the kind of behavior you're pointing out, but to make that (ahem) generalization about them is exactly why you should have paid better attention reading the article.
aflanigan

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Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 1:16pm

 sirdroseph wrote:
This is a terrific article written from a liberal point of view which makes it even more interesting and imo very important: sorry hyperlinks or anything other than text do not work for me on this site when I am at work: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-28/why-people-still-support-trump

 
It has at least one glaring flaw. It places the onus of not generalizing and applying easy labels solely on Trump opponents. Trump supporters engage in the same generalizations and stereotyping of people they disagree with.
Proclivities

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Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 10:50am

 kurtster wrote:

Sandy was a debacle arranging funding and relief.  There was so much pork attached to get it through, including things like The Smithsonian and other unrelated things that had nothing to do with the hurricane.

Loss of life is not the only metric to use here.  There is going to be a public health crisis unseen before that is going to take some real problem solving to diagnose properly and fix immediately.  Like Maryte posted, Houston is an economic center and not everyone can leave if the place is to still function.  The people needed to keep the place running are going to have to deal with some really deplorable conditions just staying there.  FEMA trailers everywhere (but where ?) anyone ?  Just for openers and how about bottled water for 10 million people RIGHT NOW.
 
Yes, in terms of sheer population and public health, this will be an incredibly larger catastrophe to deal with, probably to an unprecedented extent.  If Trump is able to expedite relief, like food, shelter, and water, faster, then good on him; I hope he (or someone) is able to do it as fast as possible; as we've all seen, these sort of things can get bogged down or otherwise screwed up more than they should.  I just don't see his having hotels and golf courses built (or leasing out his "brand" to post his name on buildings) making him any more of an expert in infrastructure and urban planning than any other President.
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