cc_rider wrote: 
A lot of people here (and elsewhere) predicted that about the US economy around 2009; it looks like they were wrong.

 VV wrote: 
It feels like the wheels are coming off our government. Not just Trump, not just the major political parties, but the institutions, the very fundamentals of government. I have a long-standing prediction that has never failed me: things are going to get a whole lot worse before they get better.

 miamizsun wrote: 
On the contrary, there could be a lot that comes out of this. Even before this hearing we have now learned that Comey wasn't the only one that Trump approached to try and back off the investigation into Flynn.

Unfortunately with each passing day we learn that Trump is dangerous and seriously unfit for the job. 

The League of Fake News Purveyors

 kurtster wrote: 
may i ramble for a minute?

i don't expect a lot to come out of this

just a lot of political posturing, trying to nab someone on a technicality

sure you'll get the media manufactured sugar-buzz buffoonery

in politics we should focus on what these guys are actually doing, not the rhetoric

regards

edit:

one of the larger points that should concern the hell out us is the deep state

hoovering up every scrap of data to be used against anyone that they see fit

i'm a bit surprised that folks don't stroll over to sites the intercept and gaze on some of the docs, memos and internal briefs

it seems most people don't give two shytes if it suits their political agenda

if it is left in tact eventually there will be political strong man that will gain control and use it against any and/or all dissent

"Show me the man, and I’ll show you the crime." - Lavrentiy Beria, head of Joseph Stalin’s secret police

 In June 1937 he said in a speech, "Let our enemies know that anyone who attempts to raise a hand against the will of our people, against the will of the party of Lenin and Stalin, will be mercilessly crushed and destroyed."

as it turns out Trump is environmentally friendly, in a meeting with congressional leaders he suggested in order to pay for the wall along the Mexican border that solar panels be put on it,....really, no joke
.
 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-answer-to-paying-for-us-mexico-border-wall-install-solar-panels-2017-06-07

 kurtster wrote: 

It's already getting cray-cray. Trump is dangerously close to, if not neck-deep in, obstruction of justice. Oh, and the New York Times is saying that Jeff Sessions has offered to resign. 


Top intelligence official told associates Trump asked him if he could intervene with Comey on FBI Russia probe

The nation’s top intelligence official told associates in March that President Trump asked him if he could intervene with then-FBI Director James B. Comey to get the bureau to back off its focus on former national security adviser Michael Flynn in its Russia probe, according to officials.

On March 22, less than a week after being confirmed by the Senate, Director of National Intelligence Daniel Coats attended a briefing at the White House together with officials from several government agencies. As the briefing was wrapping up, Trump asked everyone to leave the room except for Coats and CIA Director Mike Pompeo.

The president then started complaining about the FBI investigation and Comey’s handling of it, said officials familiar with the account Coats gave to associates. Two days earlier, Comey had confirmed in a congressional hearing that the bureau was probing whether Trump’s campaign coordinated with Russia during the 2016 race.

...

The events involving Coats show the president went further than just asking intelligence officials to deny publicly the existence of any evidence showing collusion during the 2016 election, as The Washington Post reported in May. The interaction with Coats indicates that Trump aimed to enlist top officials to have Comey curtail the bureau’s probe.

Coats will testify on Wednesday before the Senate Intelligence Committee. Lawmakers on the panel said they would press him for information about his interactions with the president regarding the FBI investigation.

 kcar wrote: 
All's I got is the next two days of Congressional testimony is going to be most interesting.

 haresfur wrote: 
"It is clear that the engagement between the Trump campaign and Russia went high enough that the only reasonable conclusion is that Trump had to know, although that may still be difficult to prove. If he didn't know, then he is too incompetent to manage his staff, much less the country."


I can't imagine at all that Trump's campaign staff and friends created an information firewall around him that kept him in blissful ignorance. I get the impression that his inner circle isn't sufficiently competent, mutually cooperative or loyal to Trump to pull that feat off. 

Proving that Trump knew about collusion with the Russians as it happened might be hard to prove, but it wouldn't surprise me if Bannon, Conway and others give Trump up if/when the investigative heat gets too close. 

 VV wrote: 
I think Pence will be significantly worse than Trump in terms of allowing Congress to decimate environmental and social wellbeing. However, ultimately I think you should do what is right with the situation as it stands and let the chips fall.

It now seems clear that the Russian meddling in the election went beyond propaganda and disinformation, based on the recently leaked documents. It is clear that the engagement between the Trump campaign and Russia went high enough that the only reasonable conclusion is that Trump had to know, although that may still be difficult to prove. If he didn't know, then he is too incompetent to manage his staff, much less the country. 

I think the Republican Party will only drop him when they can no longer deny that they know what's going on. It's like them dropping Larry Craig after his sex scandal. The news accounts make it pretty clear that it was an open secret but they were happy to go along until he got caught. (off topic /rant on: I don't mind criticizing  Craig for being an effin hypocrite, but I do mind that he was criticized for lying about being gay. He gets to define his sexual orientation however he wants and if he wants to be a straight guy who sometimes likes a blow job from a guy in a bathroom, so be it. /rant off)

So yes I want to see Trump moved on, if only for the sake of international relations. But you guys will still be in for a world of hurt.

 VV wrote: 

Right now, the only ones who can move Trump ASAP are the Republicans in Congress. And they won't move him so long as Trump's base remains an electoral threat to those in Congress who want to vote him out via impeachment or the 25th Amendment. 

It's possible that the Democrats will take the House in '18. But right now that's still not really likely. Even if they have the numbers after the next mid-term election, the Democrats would have to have good cause to remove Trump—tweeting crazy stuff ain't enough. If Trump lasts as long as November '18, my guess is that he'll be past the behaviors and scandals that could get him removed.

But if the various investigations into connections between the Trump campaign and Russia turn up criminal behavior, then yeah the Republicans in Congress might turn on Trump very quickly. 

 VV wrote: 
i'm thinking the ghost of trump is going to haunt us for the next four years  

 Steely_D wrote: 
You are thinking bigger picture... which is fine. I (and many others I'll bet) want to see Trump moved out ASAP so that Pence can attempt to try and bring some semblance of normalcy to this dysfunctional sideshow.

Am I a Pence fan? Not at all, but anybody has got to be better than what we have now. I still believe that there is a "breaking point" at which Trump's collective support will crumble and when it does... it will happen very quickly as no one wants to be the last one on the Titanic.

 Coaxial wrote: 

 Steely_D wrote: 
the problem with politics is definitions (always changing to suit an agenda)

the rhetoric, the sophistry playing to the well primed conditioning of the masses

if we can't or don't define something (especially politically) how are we going to measure it? manage it? much less achieve it

sustainable peace, prosperity, healthcare through force, violence and coercion

it'll never happen but that won't stop us from continuing to point guns at each other and expecting the people at the other end to have an epiphany

regards

 Steely_D wrote: 

1. I still believe that the anti-Trump is the decaying establishment of the party, made up of free-agent type politicians who pledge allegiance to a few issues (no new taxes, tax cuts for the rich, free-market policies except for subsidies and tax cuts for major corporations, etc). This group hyperventilated about Trump but could do nothing to stop him because its members don't work well on actually getting things done. If Trump hadn't run,  they would have been fretting about Ted Cruz and/or Marco "No Show" Rubio. They will turn on Trump if he threatens their political careers.

2. The Democrats are slowly pulling their act together, although I think there's a risk that they'll shift too far to the left. Apparently support for single-payer health care is growing rapidly, even in Congress, despite serious skepticism about funding and difficult transitions. Jared Bernstein of the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities has written an interesting op-ed, claiming that he sees Democratic support for policies like 

a. "(A) universal child allowance: a monthly stipend for all families with children" to combat child poverty.

b.  "Direct job creation policies, meaning either jobs created by the government or publicly subsidized private employment." This was done in the last recession and helped create about 250,000 jobs, according to Bernstein. 

c. "(A)n expansion of the earned-income tax credit into the working class. The tax credit is both broadly popular and very successful: In 2015, it lifted 6.5 million people, including 3.3 million children, out of poverty."

d. An increase in the minimum wage. 
No one has emerged as a clear leader. Elizabeth Warren and Al Franken each have written the inevitable pre-candidacy book. Bernie again? Who knows.

3.   As for pro-Trump GOPers, there's still a lot of grassroots ferment on the right but I don't know if they'll be as interested in politics in 2018 or 2020. Also, let's see how long their loyalty to Trump lasts once they realize that he's trying to screw them over on healthcare and taxes. 

 ScottN wrote: 
There are three elements in play:The GOP without Trump. They're losing control of their party from this hostile takeover. But they have no leader.
The Democrats. In this scenario, they should stand tall, declare a leader, and begin to fight for The American Way. Where the hell is that leader? Just like the GOP has had seven years to find an Obamacare replacement, the Dems have had a long time to coalesce into something that America can get behind. But it hasn't happened. Sad!
and that leaves the third element:
The pro-Trump folks who think Ryan and McCain are RINOs and traitors. Their numbers were underestimated before, which is why we're in this pickle. These are the folks in the driver's seat - simply because no one else is strong enough to take the wheel.

 ScottN wrote: 
I ask myself the same question.

The only answer I have is that (with all of the accumulated nonsense) there will be some things that eventually come to light that will finally tip the scales against him and send most of his reluctant supporters running for the hills. When that happens, the impeachment proponents will likely pick up steam... smell the blood in the water... and start the process to remove this stain in our history.

That day can't happen soon enough for me. Remove the cancer before it does more damage.

Thank God Trump is having a quiet week for a change....