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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Media Bias Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 82, 83, 84  Next
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kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 2, 2017 - 5:44pm

 Steely_D wrote:

, you're supposed to make 50 widgets a day. You're making 30. Me telling you that you're doing it wrong is not subjective or opinion but is criticism. 
 
Not so fast, boss.  I'm not doing it wrong.  I'm making 60 widgets a day, but half are scrap cause you don't maintain your equipment properly and the blanks you get from that sleazy supplier aren't worth using.  Be happy you're getting 30 a day out of me that pass inspection.  You want more out of me, then maintain your equipment and find a better supplier.  If you did your part I might be able to do 70 a day.  Don't blame me for your inabilities to do what you are supposed to be doing.

Eh ?
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 2, 2017 - 4:13pm

 Steely_D wrote:
 you're supposed to make 50 widgets a day. You're making 30.  
  
Get off my back!
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 2, 2017 - 1:58pm

 kurtster wrote:
On the bolded.  Criticism ≠ news.  Criticism = opinion. See your bullet point regarding op - eds.  Accurate presentation of new facts (the 5 W's) = news.  
 
You can't dispose of criticism by saying it's all subjective/opinion. 

You can dispose of it by saying that nothing matters. If it's anarchy, then nothing matters. But if there are rules, values, expectations - then criticism can be the judgment of whether or not someone/something is meeting those standards. 

E.g., you're supposed to make 50 widgets a day. You're making 30. Me telling you that you're doing it wrong is not subjective or opinion but is criticism. Unless you're the Dude.
In which case


 


Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 2, 2017 - 1:55pm

 sirdroseph wrote:

I actually agree with this, our political and economic system has been and probably always will be a sham that is too big and entrenched for us to do anything about anyway. Voting is a joke when the ballot of choices are rigged and corrupted before you even get to the polls. So vatta u gonna do except look at the man in the mirror and get yourself straight because our individual impact on each other is ultimately the only true power we, the peon citizens have.
 
I see folks overwhelmed by indifference and the promise of an early bed, and I think like Ron Swanson: these folks ned to get a tent and a pole and go spend some time in nature. Phones off, TV off, life on. So many anxious thoughts are the result of us being told we should be different or worried. Politics, deodorant, car, past stories...they all fit in there somewhere as things we're supposed to be concerned about.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 2, 2017 - 1:39pm

 maryte wrote:
What I would like to see from any and all sides:
  • When criticizing or lauding specific examples of good or bad journalism, take the time to provide clear rationale as to *why* they are either good or bad, not simply "So-and-so said it, therefore it's fact"  
  • No op-eds - those are opinions, and not news - damned near the pinnacle of media bias 
  • Cease and desist with the term "main stream media" - it's simply a lazy way to disregard what could very well be a good piece of journalism that you just don't happen to agree with (see the first bullet point)
  • There are a few sources which can be disregarded, but even Fox News gets it right once and a while - hell, the National Inquirer gets it right once and a while - so if criticizing a story from a source that you generally would not consider reliable, please provide more rationale beyond "I don't like that source"
  • If at all possible, try to find the primary source for a story and don't cite news aggregators; their sole purpose is to generate clickbait headlines, and therefore, money.
  • And if you're not already aware of them, however dry the writing is, Reuters is about as neutral a source as exists today
If you don't have the time to thoughtfully engage, you're part of the problem.  To paraphrase something SteelyD just posted, all criticism is not fake news.  


 
Reasonable thoughts.  Clearly the common denominator in causing the perceptions we are dealing with is how it has become all about the messenger instead of the message.  Only certain messengers are deemed or thought to be acceptable by varying factions.  The accompanying message is then and only then seen, regardless of veracity.  But since it is only certain messengers being viewed, their message is the only one considered.

On the bolded.  Criticism ≠ news.  Criticism = opinion. See your bullet point regarding op - eds.  Accurate presentation of new facts (the 5 W's) = news.  
maryte

maryte Avatar

Location: Blinding You With Library Science!
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 2, 2017 - 11:13am

What I would like to see from any and all sides:
  • When criticizing or lauding specific examples of good or bad journalism, take the time to provide clear rationale as to *why* they are either good or bad, not simply "So-and-so said it, therefore it's fact"  
  • No op-eds - those are opinions, and not news - damned near the pinnacle of media bias 
  • Cease and desist with the term "main stream media" - it's simply a lazy way to disregard what could very well be a good piece of journalism that you just don't happen to agree with (see the first bullet point)
  • There are a few sources which can be disregarded, but even Fox News gets it right once and a while - hell, the National Inquirer gets it right once and a while - so if criticizing a story from a source that you generally would not consider reliable, please provide more rationale beyond "I don't like that source"
  • If at all possible, try to find the primary source for a story and don't cite news aggregators; their sole purpose is to generate clickbait headlines, and therefore, money.
  • And if you're not already aware of them, however dry the writing is, Reuters is about as neutral a source as exists today
If you don't have the time to thoughtfully engage, you're part of the problem.  To paraphrase something SteelyD just posted, all criticism is not fake news.  

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 2, 2017 - 10:15am

 steeler wrote:
OFFS. As I finished writing that post, I was thinking that I should have said "assailing the media as a monolith," but did not edit to add that clarification, being lazy and also thinking that my many previous posts on the topic would provide amplification. My error.

Now, with that clarification, let me say: OFFS, I am not saying that criticism of the media is off limits.  You are rebutting an argument that I have not made. Feel free to criticize reporting errors, flawed coverage, lack of coverage, and any other miscues that can and do occur on a daily basis among the innumerable stories published or broadcast every day. Those in journalism do that kind of review every day, and in the aggregate. It is a good practice.

i have no quarrel with any criticism of this sort. The problem — and the danger — stems not from the criticism of specific reporting errors or flawed coverage of a particular story. It stems from the sweeping conclusions that are drawn. The reporting error was not just a mistake born, perhaps, from shoddy work, it was emblematic of something far greater and more sinister. These reporters and editors have an agenda that is predicated upon showering the public with disinformation. And that kind of "criticism" is extended to most, if not all, of the "mainstream media" as a monolith. The mainstream media cannot be trusted to tell us the truth. They will distort the news to serve their own purposes. 

Enter Trump: journalists are the enemy of the people. You fail to see the danger in a President making those kind of statements on a regular basis? I know you must know that the Founders considered the press to be critical to our democracy — the fourth branch. 

are there examples of bias in the media? Sure. It happens. Janet Cooke infamously reported in the Washington Post in 1981 about an 8-year-old heroin addict. Won a Pulitzer, which was rescinded when the story subsequently was exposed as fiction. She had a self-serving agenda and the system  at the Post failed to detect the inaccuracies. Does that mean everything reported is the result of bias? Of course not. It is not systemic. And if it were — as you and others seem to believe — where does that leave us? The greater harm is the media? OFFS.

Trump and way too many others rail about "fake news" stemming from unnamed sources. Publishing stories based upon sources, named or unnamed, is a tricky, complicated editorial judgment — but a necessary one. For example: We would not have read about Watergate, nor would the Boston Gobe Spotlight team been able to inform the public about decades of child sexual abuse by priests in the Boston area and the efforts of the Boston Archdiocese to cover it up, if those investigations could not rely upon unnamed sources in piecing together what was going on. 

As the Founders recognized, the American press is a public good. We forget that at our own peril.

OFFS, indeed.

A public good that can be undermined from within as well as without.

It's also an industry, and most of the part with national reach is concentrated on the coasts in big cities, big media markets. And it generally holds people outside those markets as contemptible imbeciles, uncultured, unsophisticated, incapable of following their narratives. Not people who disagree with big city politics, people too dumb to get it. The middle of the country has become enamored of a faction of the media that tells them they are honest hardworking people who may cling to traditional values but at least they have values, and they deserve better than the image the coastal elites have created for them.

That contempt has become mutual, and it has had terrible consequences. When CNN (to pick an example) tries to inform the public that the president is playing them for fools on, say, immigration that public either nods its heads and says "Yes, fools! Dangerous, racist, homophobic fools!" or says "Yep, they hate us, they hate Trump, and they'll say anything to bring him down and make us look bad." If Fox (to pick another example) were to try and shed some light on the latest free lunch proposal from the left those same heads will either tip back in full-throated outrage and chant "They hate us, they want us to suffer, and they oppose anything that might benefit anyone who isn't rich and white!" or "Yep, another set of eggheads ignoring the consequences of their feel-good politics, screwing the public to curry favor with their base."

And I can't honestly say either one is wrong. Much of our media will distort the truth to match its agenda, and much of the public is now seeking out news that matches their preconceived notions of how the world works—not just because they want those views confirmed, but because they can sense the contempt they're held in.

The cure isn't going to be easy or simple. We need journalists courageous (and patient) enough to build an audience by being honest. They don't have to be unbiased, nobody is. They have to be willing to tell stories that audience won't like.

There are examples of this emerging. The Intercept is lopsidedly lefty but willing to point out when the left gets it wrong. NPR shows signs of it now and again. The Wall Street Journal has a pretty broad perspective hidden behind its paywall but tends to focus on economic issues to the exclusion of others. The Economist is similar.

We need to water the trees we want to grow. and give honest journalists our attention.

And yes, I'm "assailing the media" because most of it isn't doing its job well. If I'm misrepresenting your views on this you're going to have to meet me halfway here and actually express them. I may be one of the voices in your head but I can't hear the others.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 1, 2017 - 11:46am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 steeler wrote:
Those intent on assailing the media are intent on undermining democracy — whether or not they know it.
Reap and sow. 

OFFS.

No one gets to be immune from criticism, including professional critics. The current state of American mass journalism is doing vastly more harm to our democracy than anyone calling bullshit on them.

And I count Donald Trump's presidency as part of that harm.

 
OFFS. As I finished writing that post, I was thinking that I should have said "assailing the media as a monolith," but did not edit to add that clarification, being lazy and also thinking that my many previous posts on the topic would provide amplification. My error.

Now, with that clarification, let me say: OFFS, I am not saying that criticism of the media is off limits.  You are rebutting an argument that I have not made. Feel free to criticize reporting errors, flawed coverage, lack of coverage, and any other miscues that can and do occur on a daily basis among the innumerable stories published or broadcast every day. Those in journalism do that kind of review every day, and in the aggregate. It is a good practice.

i have no quarrel with any criticism of this sort. The problem — and the danger — stems not from the criticism of specific reporting errors or flawed coverage of a particular story. It stems from the sweeping conclusions that are drawn. The reporting error was not just a mistake born, perhaps, from shoddy work, it was emblematic of something far greater and more sinister. These reporters and editors have an agenda that is predicated upon showering the public with disinformation. And that kind of "criticism" is extended to most, if not all, of the "mainstream media" as a monolith. The mainstream media cannot be trusted to tell us the truth. They will distort the news to serve their own purposes. 

Enter Trump: journalists are the enemy of the people. You fail to see the danger in a President making those kind of statements on a regular basis? I know you must know that the Founders considered the press to be critical to our democracy — the fourth branch. 

are there examples of bias in the media? Sure. It happens. Janet Cooke infamously reported in the Washington Post in 1981 about an 8-year-old heroin addict. Won a Pulitzer, which was rescinded when the story subsequently was exposed as fiction. She had a self-serving agenda and the system  at the Post failed to detect the inaccuracies. Does that mean everything reported is the result of bias? Of course not. It is not systemic. And if it were — as you and others seem to believe — where does that leave us? The greater harm is the media? OFFS.

Trump and way too many others rail about "fake news" stemming from unnamed sources. Publishing stories based upon sources, named or unnamed, is a tricky, complicated editorial judgment — but a necessary one. For example: We would not have read about Watergate, nor would the Boston Gobe Spotlight team been able to inform the public about decades of child sexual abuse by priests in the Boston area and the efforts of the Boston Archdiocese to cover it up, if those investigations could not rely upon unnamed sources in piecing together what was going on. 

As the Founders recognized, the American press is a public good. We forget that at our own peril.

OFFS, indeed.

 


sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 1, 2017 - 11:30am

 steeler wrote:

Well, then, nothing to worry about! :)

 





I actually agree with this, our political and economic system has been and probably always will be a sham that is too big and entrenched for us to do anything about anyway. Voting is a joke when the ballot of choices are rigged and corrupted before you even get to the polls. So vatta u gonna do except look at the man in the mirror and get yourself straight because our individual impact on each other is ultimately the only true power we, the peon citizens have.


steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 1, 2017 - 9:53am

 sirdroseph wrote:
 steeler wrote:
Those intent on assailing the media are intent on undermining democracy — whether or not they know it.
Reap and sow. 

 

Undermining democracy, oh no we can't have that! lol Seriously that ship sailed well before we were born.

 
Well, then, nothing to worry about! :)
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 1, 2017 - 7:42am

 SeriousLee wrote:
I blame it on Sam Beckett. 

{#Lol}
Skydog

Skydog Avatar



Posted: Jul 1, 2017 - 7:24am

 SeriousLee wrote:

I blame it on Sam Beckett.



 
{#Lol}{#Lol}
SeriousLee

SeriousLee Avatar

Location: Dans l'milieu d'deux milles livres


Posted: Jul 1, 2017 - 7:16am

 Skydog wrote:

not at all, at least it wasn't tough for me and forgive me for butting into your conversation,
I first voted in 1972,  2016 was only the 4th time I voted and I did that so the Oval Office would not be occupied by someone who is to mentally and emotionally unstable to clean toilets at Walmart
let alone be the President Of The United States Of America.
But my fellow citizens disagreed with me.
After the GOP nominated their candidate last year politics and policy didn't matter to me, still don't.
Fred's son is mentally ill, probably born that way.
And he is emotionally unstable, probably Fred's fault.
 

 
I blame it on Sam Beckett.


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 1, 2017 - 6:34am

 steeler wrote:
Those intent on assailing the media are intent on undermining democracy — whether or not they know it.
Reap and sow. 

OFFS.

No one gets to be immune from criticism, including professional critics. The current state of American mass journalism is doing vastly more harm to our democracy than anyone calling bullshit on them.

And I count Donald Trump's presidency as part of that harm.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 1, 2017 - 5:41am

 steeler wrote:
Those intent on assailing the media are intent on undermining democracy — whether or not they know it.
Reap and sow. 

 





Undermining democracy, oh no we can't have that! lol Seriously that ship sailed well before we were born.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 4:48pm

Those intent on assailing the media are intent on undermining democracy — whether or not they know it.
Reap and sow. 
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 4:28pm

 westslope wrote:

Her team put cross hairs on districts?  

Wow.  If I was American, I would be tempted to shoot her myself.  If nothing else, it shows extremely bad judgement.  
That said, the widespread campaign to ridicule Sarah Palin was probably a mistake.  In a sense, she deserved it.  But she was a former governor and lots of ordinary Americans are just as 'stoopid' as she is.  

I am not saying that we should celebrate Ignorance as strength!, it is just that ridiculing large numbers of the voting population rarely accomplishes the purported goal.  
Besides the Democratic party's support for the Israeli nuclear weapons backed affirmed ethnic cleansing program gave the USA the Sept. 11th attacks and all that followed so supporters of the Democrats need to really who is the stoopidist in the land.   Or do Democrats simply have a high willingness to pay for land and water in the West Bank and East Jerusalem?   Pay in lost billions of dollars of wealth and dead Americans.  

 
Those so called cross hairs are actually surveyors marks or alignment marks commonly used in printing.  And it was Bob Beckel, a Democratic strategist who first used those kinds of marks on a political map in the 90's similar to the one referenced as Palin's.

Once again, this is old, completely refuted and has been thoroughly debunked.  Yet here we are going over the same old shit, because no one sees the corrections, they just remember the headlines.  And the NYT, drags it back out reinforcing their argument / agenda with a proven lie aka genuine fake news.

And I'll bet you $1000 that it will come out again sometime in the future when the need for phony facts arises once more.  Unless Palin wins and wins big.

And if you used this bull shit story to go hunt Palin yourself and succeeded, how would you feel when the facts were presented to you afterwards ?  Would you plead ignorance of the facts as your defense ?  This is the problem.  These lies are gonna get people killed, for the wrong reasons ...  not that there is a good reason to kill people in the first place ...
Skydog

Skydog Avatar



Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 10:26am

 Beaker wrote:


Tough choice at the polls!

 
not at all, at least it wasn't tough for me and forgive me for butting into your conversation,
I first voted in 1972,  2016 was only the 4th time I voted and I did that so the Oval Office would not be occupied by someone who is to mentally and emotionally unstable to clean toilets at Walmart
let alone be the President Of The United States Of America.
But my fellow citizens disagreed with me.
After the GOP nominated their candidate last year politics and policy didn't matter to me, still don't.
Fred's son is mentally ill, probably born that way.
And he is emotionally unstable, probably Fred's fault.
 


miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 8:22am

 Beaker wrote:
CNN Producer: Voters “Stupid as Sh*t”– American Pravda: CNN Part 3


Do watch it all.  Lies by omission.


 
do the majority voters prefer a nice biased delivery with their steaming pile of politics and/or news?

you betcha

and i predict this video evidence will have no effect on about half of the voters  {#Wink}

peace
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Jun 30, 2017 - 8:21am

 kurtster wrote:
I was really hoping she would sue the NYT.  It now looks like she has indeed pulled the trigger on a lawsuit.  I sincerely hope she wins enough money to cripple it and its insurance company for the wanton malice the NYT regularly engages in.

As far as I can tell, only financial losses and job terminations will have any affect on reigning in the kind of journalism we are discussing in this thread.  Again, retractions are meaningless jokes.

Sarah Palin Sues New York Times for Defamation

 
Her team put cross hairs on districts?  

Wow.  If I was American, I would be tempted to shoot her myself.  If nothing else, it shows extremely bad judgement.  
That said, the widespread campaign to ridicule Sarah Palin was probably a mistake.  In a sense, she deserved it.  But she was a former governor and lots of ordinary Americans are just as 'stoopid' as she is.  

I am not saying that we should celebrate Ignorance as strength!, it is just that ridiculing large numbers of the voting population rarely accomplishes the purported goal.  
Besides the Democratic party's support for the Israeli nuclear weapons backed affirmed ethnic cleansing program gave the USA the Sept. 11th attacks and all that followed so supporters of the Democrats need to really who is the stoopidist in the land.   Or do Democrats simply have a high willingness to pay for land and water in the West Bank and East Jerusalem?   Pay in lost billions of dollars of wealth and dead Americans.  
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