While the Mintwood article is interesting, it's not clear how much influence the State Dept's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) had. The piece also does not make clear what evidence the INR had to make its assessments that many points of Powell's speech (in draft at the time of the INR report) were "weak." As I write below, the US intelligence community (16 agencies) had published a National Intelligence Estimate stating that Iraq had WMDs.
Check out this 2016 Frontline interview with Powell for his take on the speech and the conditions he worked under. He was given about 4 days by the White House to prepare for the UN speech. President GW Bush had already made up his mind to invade Iraq and had obtained Congressional approval to do so. There were MANY people in Congress who thought there was sufficient evidence and cause to invade btw. The White House had given Powell a speech to use (IIRC prepared by Cheney's staff) that Powell thought was wholly inadequate and filled with claims that "did not track."
I don't know if Powell read or considered the INR assessment of the points of his speech in its draft state. Powell said he felt comfortable drafting a new speech based on the National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq's apparent WMD programs as well as his consultations with the CIA about the NIE in the four days before the UN speech.
Powell went to the UN to gain support from the UN member states for possible invasion but mostly to pressure Iraq to allow UN inspections for WMDs and thus PREVENT war. Powell persuaded Bush to go to the UN because he knew Iraq could be a quagmire for occupying US troops. Powell used the "Pottery Barn rule" analogy to persuade Bush: if you break it (invade Iraq), you own it.
Powell's words, from the Frontline interview linked to above:
You have to remember that at the time I gave the speech on Feb. 5, the president had already made this decision for military action. The dice had been tossed. Thatâs what we were going to do. The Congress had passed a resolution three months before that speech that essentially gave the president the authorization to do it. Overwhelmingly they voted for it, and it was on the basis of that National Intelligence Estimate. The president had been using these very significant points about biological vans and chemical weapons in his speeches and in the State of the Union address. There was really nothing in my speech that hadnât already been covered in the State of the Union or other speeches.
The reason I went to the U.N. is because we needed now to put the case before the entire international community in a powerful way, and thatâs what I did that day.
Of course walking into that room is always a daunting experience, but I had been there before. And we had projectors and all sorts of technology to help us make the case. And thatâs what I did. I made the case with the director of central intelligence sitting behind me. He and his team had vouched for everything in it. We didnât make up anything. We threw out a lot of stuff that was not double- and triple-sourced, because I knew the importance of this.
When I was through, I felt pretty good about it. I thought we had made the case, and there was pretty good reaction to it for a few weeks. And then suddenly, the CIA started to let us know that the case was falling apart â parts of the case were falling apart. It was deeply disturbing to me and to the president, to all of us, and to the Congress, because they had voted on the basis of that information. And 16 intelligence agencies had agreed to it, with footnotes. None of the footnotes took away their agreement.
Powell put his trust in the US intelligence community and it failed him. The intelligence community had been under tremendous pressure to link Saddam to WMDs and Al Qaeda and thus justify invasion. Cheney was the leader of that.
In slight defense of Cheney, I'll note that I saw another Frontline special that shed light on Cheney's thinking. Cheney was SecDef during the Gulf War and was deeply shocked by the post-war revelation that Saddam had a well-advanced nuclear weapons program. The US intelligence community did not know about this at all IIRC. The memory of that revelation and the failure of President GW Bush and VP Cheney's administration to prevent 9/11 (despite CIA Director Tenet's frantic warnings during the spring and summer of 2001) led Cheney to wrongly believe Saddam was cooperating with Al Qaeda and presented a viable post-9/11 threat to the US.
It means I missed my calling and rather than think for myself I should defer to all things demonstrably toothsome...
At that young age, I was torn und unwissend, as all young men of the age are, I guess. Finally decided to consciencE obJect. For me, it was seeing my Grandma, perhaps living with her... the lady who raised me by the sea (where I live now), or follow closer ideals - staying near parents and girlfriend. Makes me an Angsthase, Pfeffernase?
LOL. Don't get bogged down in my sediment. Wait, I mean sentiment! I can master disaster with but a thought; often misunderstood...
Gosh I should have readMintpress News for the true scoop. My bad...
What's your suggestion? Not sooo much differing from the MSM, are they?
MintPress News is an ostensibly left-leaning American online news website founded and edited by Mnar Adley (née, Muhawesh) which was launched in January 2012 and employs many Russia Today affiliates. (Wikipedia)
They could be more American in distributing 'sensitive issues'? ...sensitivity and all, remembering the phalanx appearing in the western media back then, to me C.P. appeared much less demonized (i.e. obsessed by demons), as compared to others brightly shining in the limelight, too.
*Cheers* bud.
It means I missed my calling and rather than think for myself I should defer to all things demonstrably toothsome...
Powell was misled about the intelligence but he should have known that his case on WMDs was circumstantial. I can't remember whether Powell supported invading Iraq instead of pressing for inspections.
However, Powell only contributed to war with Iraq. He did not cause it and wasn't even a primary cause of it. Powell provided a fig leaf of respectability and some hazy rationale to the war. Dick Cheney was far more responsible, ignoring the American intelligence community's assessment that Saddam likely did not have WMD stockpiles or a working alliance with Al Qaeda. Instead, Cheney told lie after lie to push the US into war with Iraq. He was also one of the major promoters of our torturing Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere.
I don't see how Powell was misled unless he more incompetent than I believe he was. The Department of Energy is the US agency that deals with nuclear non-proliferation and you heard nothing attributed to them in the lead up to the war. I think it is clear they didn't believe Iraq had an active nuclear weapon development program of any consequence and were sidelined.
No, he didn't cause the war, but he was trusted by even Democrats and he squandered that trust. I expect he knew full well that was going to be the end of his political career.
We are all very complex animals, and often defined by those acts most at odds with our character. As you said, he was a soldier at heart, so he followed orders. He did a lot of good things, that that one speech and all that followed (because of the speech and the integrity of the speaker) are on him. It was a mistake, and he owns the bodies on all sides of it.
Powell was misled about the intelligence but he should have known that his case on WMDs was circumstantial. I can't remember whether Powell supported invading Iraq instead of pressing for inspections.
However, Powell only contributed to war with Iraq. He did not cause it and wasn't even a primary cause of it. Powell provided a fig leaf of respectability and some hazy rationale to the war. Dick Cheney was far more responsible, ignoring the American intelligence community's assessment that Saddam likely did not have WMD stockpiles or a working alliance with Al Qaeda. Instead, Cheney told lie after lie to push the US into war with Iraq. He was also one of the major promoters of our torturing Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere.
The disturbing thing is that back in 1994 Cheney said in an interview that invading Iraq after the Gulf War would have been disastrous and would have led to a quagmire.
Yet after pushing for an invasion based on bad intelligence and leading to disaster for the US, Cheney insisted that invading and controlling Iraq was the right thing to do.
We are all very complex animals, and often defined by those acts most at odds with our character. As you said, he was a soldier at heart, so he followed orders. He did a lot of good things, that that one speech and all that followed (because of the speech and the integrity of the speaker) are on him. It was a mistake, and he owns the bodies on all sides of it.
I truly believe Powell always tried to act with integrity. I think he failed in one supremely important instance and attribute that to him being too military for that moment as Secretary of State. I cannot forget that, even with his death but recognise his greatness in other areas. I guess that's the same as one of my other American heroes, Harry Truman. I sadly accept the bombing of Hiroshima (my father probably would have been part of the Tokyo invasion), but think Nagasaki was unnecessary. No one will ever know.
We are all very complex animals, and often defined by those acts most at odds with our character. As you said, he was a soldier at heart, so he followed orders. He did a lot of good things, that that one speech and all that followed (because of the speech and the integrity of the speaker) are on him. It was a mistake, and he owns the bodies on all sides of it.
Location: On the edge of tomorrow looking back at yesterday. Gender:
Posted:
Oct 18, 2021 - 3:57pm
oldviolin wrote:
My personal choice for first Black American POTUS. Way before Obama was ever heard of in the national politic. How ironic him being fully vaccinated. The guy just had integrity; a sorely missed quality going into the future of darker days...
Yes he would of had my vote. A classy and honorable human being and a great leader of men.
To General Powell, one of the few men of history I would have liked to have met.
My personal choice for first Black American POTUS. Way before Obama was ever heard of in the national politic. How ironic him being fully vaccinated. The guy just had integrity; a sorely missed quality going into the future of darker days...
It's a shame.
I truly believe Powell always tried to act with integrity. I think he failed in one supremely important instance and attribute that to him being too military for that moment as Secretary of State. I cannot forget that, even with his death but recognise his greatness in other areas. I guess that's the same as one of my other American heroes, Harry Truman. I sadly accept the bombing of Hiroshima (my father probably would have been part of the Tokyo invasion), but think Nagasaki was unnecessary. No one will ever know.
My personal choice for first Black American POTUS. Way before Obama was ever heard of in the national politic. . How ironic him being fully vaccinated. The guy just had integrity; a sorely missed quality going into the future of darker days...
I'm not sure I see the irony? He has been fighting cancer and had a weakened immune system. It's a PSA for getting a booster if you're at risk / over 65 / were vaccinated early (April and prior).
A life story absolutely full of irony, on several levels, especially with the Covid, including your suggestion of a PSA. Perhaps we have a different understanding of a bigger picture, or the breadth of ironic notions. Not good/bad right/wrong. Just different. Instructively. Creatively. Any way you wish to view it.
My personal choice for first Black American POTUS. Way before Obama. How ironic him being fully vaccinated. The guy just had integrity; a sorely missed quality going into the future of darker days...
I'm not sure I see the irony? He has been fighting cancer and had a weakened immune system. It's a PSA for getting a booster if you're at risk / over 65 / were vaccinated early (April and prior).
I saw him speak when Hillary was Sec of State, and he was hysterical, really. After his speech, some buddies asked if I was gonna make his second set at the Comedy Club that night. Great line: "General, what do you think of Hillary as Sec of State?" response: "She's in my plane!" And he told a story about how he was passing through a city (Dallas?) and decided he needed to fly to DC, so he pulled into the airport and paid for his ticket with cash. This was pretty soon after 9/11, so that triggered the extra-special TSA check (flight to capital, last minute, no luggage, paid in cash), so they pulled him out of line and were wanding him - knowing exactly who he was - and he remembered thinking "Who made up these stupid rules?!? Oh...it was me."
My personal choice for first Black American POTUS. Way before Obama was ever heard of in the national politic. How ironic him being fully vaccinated. The guy just had integrity; a sorely missed quality going into the future of darker days...
I saw him speak when Hillary was Sec of State, and he was hysterical, really. After his speech, some buddies asked if I was gonna make his second set at the Comedy Club that night.
Great line: "General, what do you think of Hillary as Sec of State?"
response: "She's in my plane!"
And he told a story about how he was passing through a city (Dallas?) and decided he needed to fly to DC, so he pulled into the airport and paid for his ticket with cash.
This was pretty soon after 9/11, so that triggered the extra-special TSA check (flight to capital, last minute, no luggage, paid in cash), so they pulled him out of line and were wanding him - knowing exactly who he was - and he remembered thinking "Who made up these stupid rules?!? Oh...it was me."
Definitely one of the more imposing Secretaries of State in our time. Agree or disagree, Powell was likeable and was even respected by those who disagreed.
It is unfortunate that an otherwise fine career was blemished by the Iraq 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' lie.
The invasion of Kuwait to dislodge Iraqi troops was perhaps the best US military intervention of the post-war period. In. Do the job (kick out the Iraqis). Exit.
I am not sure that the invasion of Panama was absolutely necessary but for whatever reason, the civilians killed during that operation never stuck to the US brand and reputation.
