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Turn it On, Salvador - It's The SS Carroway   

Posted by winter - Jun 27, 2014 - 6:08pm
So I'm just going to cop to it up front: I lurk. I used to post here, kind of a lot, and lately not so much.

I'm still interested enough to poke my head in and see what's funny, what's sad, and what's being re-argued for the nine billionth time. I drop a little surrealism in my favorite thread, if I can find it. But for most of the many of you I've become friends with, I'm by and large content to keep up on Facebook. And given that the community here has rolled on just fine in my entirely unremarkable absence, that seems to have worked out well.

But I've been thinking about something that's been a topic of conversation on and off ever since FB became the new MySpace and RPeeps started fleeing here for there. Steeler touched on it in a recent journal, and I thought about it as I did my lurking routine, and I had a thought. (It's okay - I took a nap after. These things happen to men of a certain age. One adjusts.) 

What does FB really offer that the Forum doesn't?

Is it really just as simple as being able to limit your interactions to those you'd rather interact with? Certainly that's part of it.

There are certain people I'd rather not have around, and if I can simple up my e-life with a little e-voidance, so be it. Yes, that makes the FB experience less of a community and more of a social circle: you only end up hearing from the people you like. If you want to meet someone new on FB, they'd better be a friend of a friend or no go, Mercutio.

On the other hand, from my introverted perspective, that's kind of a non-starter as arguments go: I'm not likely to seek out strangers to befriend, and any that seek me out aren't likely to find me welcoming. But that's neither you nor the person next to you so much as my "man in the mirror". For most I suspect there's some fun to be had from adding new voices to the choir, despite my desire to "neither recruited nor a recruiter be". And why not? We are social animals.

But I think that's not the biggest draw. The biggest draw is that Facebook has no memory.

I don't mean that literally, of course. What we post stays posted, like a string of sturdy wood poles on wire back to the horizon. But if you want to go looking for something Aunt Mavis posted last week about how the Kennedys assassinated themselves, you have to actually put in the effort to look for it. Odds are that even if it makes the ineffable algorithmic cut for FB's "top stories", it's not going to hover in your feed for more than a couple of hours. She grinds her axe, and those who are interested say their piece, and everyone moves on to the next thing. 

It's like a cocktail party. You walk in, greet the hosts, hang up your coats, and walk smack into a heated discussion about abortion. Not your cup of tea, so you make chit-chat about last night's episode of "That Show Everyone Watches". Or a book you just read, or what happened at work today, or even why people were fools to believe the banks needed to be deregulated. The party goes on. Everyone gets a little of what they want.

But here we can see debates about guns, or whether Obama/Bush/Clinton...Hammurabi is good or evil, or how we can straighten out the economy, or who wrote history when we were watching stuff happen, and it's harder to walk away. Even if you don't participate in the conversation, it's still there in your feed: Aunt Mavis is still grinding away days later, there's that bore at the party who won't move off her favorite topic no matter who or how many steer the talk elsewise, and there you have it. It's proved to be quite the caterpillar in the buttermilk (19:10).

Granted that no one has to look in those threads if they'd rather not. But they are still there. Even when they fade for a bit, someone brings them back. Thousands on thousands of threads, as damn near unkillable as an army of Terminators. They'll always be back, because someone will resurrect them either for shits and giggles or to actually re-animate a battle fought over the same stale ground with the same weapons that didn't win the last time but have now been re-branded for optimal efficacy.

It's a cocktail party gone mad. The echoes of Todd's tirade about the Fed and Dani's diatribe damning the 9/11 Commission hang in the air until everyone has to plug their ears and shout to be heard. Even if we try to walk away someone keeps talking: they have the answers, they lived the good old days with Percival, Perseus, Ike the Well-Liked, and Bilbo Baggins, they just found this new truth that ties it all together so any fool can see, they get what you're doing and can show you on the tablets which logical commandment you just broke and how many virgin sheep's throats need slit to make amends. And there's no host here to cut them off. So just one more round, barkeep, and then we're all homeward bound and halfway to bed. Scout's honor!

I sound harsh. And maybe I'm being a bit harsh, because having played in this sandbox a few years myself I feel a bit unhappy that it's less than I'd like it to be. I miss this place (hence the lurking). And I wish I could look past all the pointless, pointless bickering that seems to exist more for its own sake than to bring forth some rough clarity, "its hour come round at last". But I have an inceasingly low tolerance for all that, and too much of it brings out the worst in me. Life is too short to be so angry, I'm told.

So how do we make the ground safer for play? We all know the guy who hammered the boards into a box and poured the sand has a merry-go-round to run, and Ol' Noodly bless him for it. So there's no looking to him to answer for the rules of play. (I'd call that a metaphor for life under gods, but that's a song for a better singer.)

Maybe we need fewer threads: General Conversation, Politics, Books, etc. Say ten or so, maybe thirteen if you feel the need of a superstitious thrill. That way whatever pet axe needs grinding doesn't get honed to an atom-splitting edge while the steely rasp wears its way through everyone's ears.

Maybe we need a consensus that what falls off the RAFT stays off the RAFT: never the same river, right? No more strange aeons for what may eternal lie. (Although there is something often non-Euclidean about the angles I've seen here. )

Even the most contentious journals - I remember arriving here when some had replies in the triple-digit range - had a hard time breaking the Franklin rule. They were "boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past". 

Maybe we need both. Or neither. I'm better with questions than answers (not that anyone looked to me for the latter, thankfully). I just think that this persistence, this inability to achieve escape velocity from the ever-deeper gravity wells of certain topics, is the key.

On Facebook, it's harder to remember who was an ass.
49 comments on this journal entry. Page: 1, 2, 3  Next
steeler
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Posted: Aug 28, 2014 - 1:26pm

Thanks, NoEnz.{#Arrowd}

Seems to be a case of forest or trees. 
NoEnzLefttoSplit
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Posted: Aug 16, 2014 - 11:57am

hmm.. I'm still not quite sure what you're targeting.  Something makes me think you are not so annoyed with the content of the threads but the quality of the readership. But that readership thing is a thorny horny beast. We all want to be understood when we write... why else would we write?  So is it the signal to noise ratio here that is disturbing you?

Or maybe I just got you wrong again. 

What's so special about this place is that actually the level of argument in some of the threads is extremely high.

Take Rexi, Lazy et al in the Economics thread. That was a pretty high-end debate in my view. The same could be said of many other threads here.. (e.g. want to ask a professor about geology? you got it.  A British vintage car?  Old stereo technology? Check. etc. etc.  Want pythonesque humor? Done. (you being one of the major contributors).  Or dot's poems. Nuclear technology?  Struth. There is a pretty wide range of quality stuff here.

Sure I go elsewhere to talk about the moment tensor solutions of the latest quake under Bardabunga but, hell, that is a pretty tall order to expect to find that degree of focus here. And yes, that was a pun. 

The cool thing about this place is that there are people in the audience who would get it. 
kurtster

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Location: drifting


Posted: Aug 4, 2014 - 7:44pm

I thinks that it is patently absurd to say that music and politics have nothing in common.

I would offer that songs of politics, social change and oppression are the number one themes in music.  More than love songs.  Someone tell me that Wagner was not political.  Or the Guthries or Seeger or Dylan or Prine or Oaks, et al.  The Stones, Beatles, The Who, The Kinks, The Doors, The Byrds, Barry MacGuire, Simon and Garfunkel, Springsteen, The Airplane, CCR, Pink Floyd, et al.  Delta Blues and call and answer.  Gospel.  How about half of the music to come out of the mid 60's to mid 70's.  Hip Hop and Rap.  Troubadours and Balladeers were the ones who went from village to village singing the news of the day.  The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.  The Star Spangled Banner.  From the Halls of Montezuma to the shores of TRIPOLI !

We Shall Overcome ...

I would like to think that music did more to end the war in Viet Nam than anything else.
 

Yep, politics and music have absolutely nothing in common ...  
Zukiwi
Summer ...
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Posted: Aug 3, 2014 - 6:04pm

Oh I have not misread you at all Winter {#Smile} - I think you misread me. {#Wave}
winter
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Posted: Aug 3, 2014 - 11:33am

Zukiwi, you misread me. It's not "why are you allowed to do so?" but "why would you want to?" If I wanted to talk cars, I probably wouldn't think of going to ScrewMonsanto.org. If I was interested in discussing the risks of GMOs in the food chain, odds are I would not log into DCVersusMarvel.net. 

It's not a question of conformity. It's a question of prioritization: if what you value is a good debate on the issues, you go where that's most likely to be found. You go where there are others similarly inclined.

Obviously there's still the friendship aspect. I'd rather debate with a friend than some random stranger. But I think the logic still holds for those at the debate-centric end of the spectrum: if it's debate you're looking for on whatever issue floats your boat, why would you not go where the waters are deeper and the fish more plentiful? There's no reason you can't do both, certainly. I just have to think that after all the drama and nonsense of trying to have these potentially contentious discussions in a non-moderated format you'd want to look for that elsewhere and look for the light-hearted fun fare here.

No sense complaining that Applebee's doesn't make a great steak or have a terrific wine cellar. It's not what they're about. 
steeler
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Posted: Aug 3, 2014 - 10:50am

Winter, I think your last comment inadvertently answers the question you posed at the end of it.   You mention early in the comment that there is significant overlap between those who come more for the friendship and those who come more for the stimulating discussion of issues. The common bonds that exist here — the friendships — are an integral component of the stimulating discussions. If we cannot have reasoned and civil discourse over issues of the day here among folk who are intelligent and conversant on a wide range of issues —, and share a common bond of community — where can we have those kinds of discussions?  I think there is a misconception that those who regularly participate in the political threads do not care about the community, or do not care about it as much as those who eschew the political threads.  They do.
Zukiwi
Summer ...
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Posted: Aug 3, 2014 - 10:40am

"...  I just wonder, "why come to a generalized forum for discussions of politics/social policy/etc. when there are any number of fora devoted to those sorts of discussions - and they are all full of more informed and engaged folks who are into all that than this place will ever be?"

Wow - I'm a bit amazed at that comment, was not even expecting it, so I guess this whole diatribe could have been easily summed to : let's get rid of the policital forum {#Roflol}. Every forum I ever visited has political threads - You like cars, you go to a car forum and up there you go, you have a political thread, you like atheism, you go to an atheist forum and up there you have a political thread as well, you like music you go to RP and ..... oops there are very few threads about music,but what the hell, there are a whole bunch of threads about pictures, graphics, photos, games, and Oh surprise, politics as well ...

Why come to a generalised forum and discuss about gardening, or photography, movies, science, graphic design when there are plenty of forums devoted to those sorts of discussions .... {#Sunny} - Oh yeah, I think it is because we are individuals, with - in principle - a common denominator : music and aside from music we happen to have different views on an array of mind-boggling subjects. I think it's cool, I truly dislike conformism ;-)


winter
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Posted: Aug 3, 2014 - 9:31am

"Sycophant", NoEnz, is a bit harsh and to my mind well off the mark. When you hang out with your friends, is that encouraging sycophancy? I don't think so. We all like who we like. And that doesn't have to be some kind of exclusionary circle jerk. Friends can disagree, even strongly, and still be friends. New friends come, old friends fade, the world rolls madly on. No one needs to crack the fake molar and shout "hail Hydra!" around a mouthful of froth.

The difference isn't a question of who sucks up and who just sucks. The difference is a question of "whose company do I enjoy?" and "whose company do I endure?"

It seems to me that some come here for friendship, and some come here for a variety of intellectual stimulation (and yes, there's significant overlap in that Venn). The friendship-minded come here to chat with others, stay connected, be supportive/supported, and share thoughts and ideas. The stimulant-seeking come here to hash out the issues of the day (whether today, tomorrow, or ten years back), to seek new perspectives and ideas, to share their thoughts and the thoughts of others.

I started out at RP talking about issues. I've got more out of RP as a place to meet friends. Your mileage may vary with your personal preference in fuels. But if one wants to go online to check in those whose company I enjoy, FB beats RP hands-down because it doesn't subject me to those I merely endure. If I find someone's posts too tin-foil-hat or too saccharine or too shouting-at-clouds, I can stop seeing them in my feed or even unfriend them if it gets too bad. I can talk about whatever I'd like without having to talk around/over/in spite of someone who really prefers shouting to speaking or someone who wants to derail the conversation to their pet project for the umpteenth time. And my friends are all welcome to join in and offer their views, anywhere along the continuum from "wow, genius idea, Winter, you are the amazingest and I now desire you more than oxygen" to "sweet Jebus in juice, how do you manage to tie your shoes with a brain that thinks an idea like that is worth sharing?"

The experience is controlled and civilized. And yes, certainly you miss out on perspectives you might otherwise have heard from those who aren't part of your circle. You don't get that growth dynamic. That's the tradeoff.  On the other hand, the same is true of virtually any conversation. If I'm chatting in a bar or at a picnic or in a dinner party, there will always be those who might have valuable insights and ideas that won't get to be part of the talk - even if for no other reason that mere geographical absence. Sure, random strangers overhearing might put their two cents' worth in. (Okay, five cents. Thanks, Obama!) Mostly they won't because mostly people mind their own business.

It just depends what you want. If you sit closer to the "looking for fellowship" end of the spectrum, you may tend to see the poli threads as a big annoying waste of space. "All that shouting and straining over stuff you can do practically nothing about? All that conflict with others for what?" If you sit closer to the "looking for stimulation" end of the spectrum, the lighter threads may seem like big piles of cotton candy nonsense to you. You may find yourself thinking, "Seriously, is there nothing in your minds more interesting than 'haha, cute cat pictures'? Almighty Eru grants you consciousness and reason so you can waste both on lightweight fluffery?"

I think of RP as a friendly place that's incidentally stimulating. I lean more toward the fellowship end of the spectrum. I enjoy a good debate as long as it doesn't turn into pointless name-calling and random idiocy, and as long as it's not the same arguments made over and over with slight variations. A good debate leads to resolution. There's value in a simple exchange of views, but I'd rather reach some conclusion when possible.

Others see it differently. I suspect a lot of the poli-thread crowd come here for all that back-and-forth that a lot of others find infuriating. I just wonder, "why come to a generalized forum for discussions of politics/social policy/etc. when there are any number of fora devoted to those sorts of discussions - and they are all full of more informed and engaged folks who are into all that than this place will ever be?" 
Zukiwi
Summer ...
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Posted: Aug 3, 2014 - 8:15am

FB has Candy Crush, RP does not {#Roflol} (joking)

Interesting read Winter (and interesting comments)  Thanks for that !{#Cheers} 
kurtster

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Posted: Jul 29, 2014 - 6:04pm

And here we go again.  A new round of objections to the poly threads.  Once again, the comment that just seeing them on the RAFT is offensive.

I really dunno anymore.  There are several types of poly threads.  Partisan, non partisan, world politics and religion to name a few.  Then there is environmental politics.  The latter seems to have a lot of participation from many more than partake in the others mentioned.  From this deck chair, it seems that this type of politics is ok to discuss, but the rest are not.

I'm going to take a break and watch who keeps what active on the raft.  The wife's surgery tomorrow will keep me busy for some time, so staying out of em should be easy. 
steeler
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Posted: Jul 28, 2014 - 6:54am

I am not sure how having just a few threads, with one for Politics, would solve the problems with political topics as I understand them.  The primary complaint I have heard over the years is that train wrecks in a political thread ruin the vibe across the forum, and avoiding those threads does not mitigate this corrosive effect (i.e., not a viable option)..  That those train wrecks only occur within one thread would not seem to solve that problem.  It would solve the problem of seeing a lot of political threads in the RAFT at any one time. Of course, there would only be a handful of threads to choose from. 
ScottN
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Posted: Jul 19, 2014 - 2:58pm

I commented much earlier when Winter's journal appeared.  I then soon deleted.
I believe BillG, edit: AND Rebecca, have little interest in social engineering, (via The Forum), has other more pressing matters, and I would guess a rather "organic" view of what the forum is and what evolution it may undergo.  It is and will be what the RP members make of it.  We can all "touch the elephant" and come away with, within our experience, equally valid views.  "It is what it is" is highly simplistic, but in this case the prosaic describes it accurately, imo.

To borrow a long time member's avatar notation. Esse quam videri.
Beaker

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Posted: Jul 16, 2014 - 2:52pm

NoEnz wrote:
"The best thing about this place is precisely the fact that the people I don't like come to the party. If you surround yourself with the people you like all the time you may as well get the cyanide pills ready. I can't think of anything worse than an army of sycophants surrounding me."
What NoEnz said.

And yeah, I've learned a bunch from many here.  And have had my own opinions changed, altered, and refined, by the passionate and informed discussion here.   That's one of the primary reasons I used to hang around.

sirdroseph
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Posted: Jul 16, 2014 - 11:46am

I completely concur with Noenz{#Arrowd}
steeler
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Posted: Jul 16, 2014 - 9:22am

I think there are several testaments in this journal entry to the fact that there are regular contributors here who find discussions/debates in the political threads to be meaningful and worthwhile. And there also are testaments to the fact that persons who have particpated in these discussions have changed their positions on certain issues as a direct result of discussions/debates here.  I am puzzled every time I inevitably hear that these discussions/debates are a waste of time and that no one ever learns anything or changes his or her mind about anything discussed.  That simply is not true 

Whether the discussions are worthwhile obviously is a subjective thing.  But it seems evident that — based on comments in this journal entry alone — there are those who do find them not only worthwhile, but invaluable.          
NoEnzLefttoSplit
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Posted: Jul 15, 2014 - 4:27pm

Oh wow!  I was wondering where you had got to.
Well dammit, it's late and I must admit I am about to crash and don't have time to read through every response but I will tomorrow. Sure I have noticed the attrition rate here, with alarm. The place is not what it use to be. BUT... I am not into transience. I actually think the good thing about this place is that there IS a record. You have to stand up for what you said. Damn right. 

I am totally with Lazy8. I have had a few extremely stimulating debates here and, believe it not, each of them has actually changed my view of things to some extent (guns, atheism, libertarianism, etc). You just don't get this kind of sustained discussion on FB, at least I haven't seen it. The best thing about this place is precisely the fact that the people I don't like come to the party. If you surround yourself with the people you like all the time you may as well get the cyanide pills ready. I can't think of anything worse than an army of sycophants surrounding me. Is that really what you want? I can't imagine it B (and btw.. I've said it before, but you are one of the wittiest people I have ever read, just to get that sycophantic angle in there, but it's true. Want some cyanide?).

I am sorry so many have moved on, but, hell. When I first started posting here the internet was comparatively tiny. I thought this place was the bees knees. Now the internet is ginormous and the opportunities for discussion are virtually endless. Maybe that is good. But I prefer the old days, when a site like this attracted the best and wittiest around. Despite the entrenched views of some and the constant transient trolls, it was pretty awesome. And you had to be pretty alert to survive. That is good. I have the feeling that on FB any crap is ok. It's just not my thing. 
black321
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Posted: Jul 11, 2014 - 11:57am

If it wasn't a "real, live thing" it wouldn't look good some days, and ugly others. The peasants who work and play don't need to worry about what rules need to be made...but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try to make it look a little nicer everyday, right?


steeler
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Posted: Jul 3, 2014 - 1:27pm

{#Arrowd} Huh? Not following.

 

 


Beaker

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Posted: Jul 3, 2014 - 12:19pm

Yes.  It's important, and we're all certain to agree, that the decline of the forum is solely due to the existence of the political threads, and more specifically, due to the behaviour of some of the participants in those political threads.  Because there can be no other possible explanation.  No need for context!
FFS.  YFM.  TALHSOMA.


steeler
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Posted: Jul 3, 2014 - 8:56am

A useful exercise, I believe, is to make a list of all those who actively participate (or have participated)  in the "political threads"  and divide that list into those one believes to be consistent contributors to having a positive, worthwhile discussion and those who one believes to be consistently disruptive or negative influences.  I suspect the second list will be much, much shorter than the first, even though there may be disagreement on which list certain individuals  may belong.

I think this exercise may add context.    
   

Edit:  The context would be that the great bulk of the discussions are positive and worthwhile.  The purpose of the exercise is not to name names, or  identify trolls.  It is to show that — when you think about it — the great majority of the exchanges are positive. It is human nature to focus upon and remember the train wrecks, but the train wrecks here are few in number when compared to all of the posts in the political threads.


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