reaching out and talking it through... ad nauseam if need be.. as one does... so how's your day so far?
real dialogue? the problem with engaging people and honestly addressing concerns is that it will likely lead to an amiable solution in the early stages that could be very uncomfortable or challenging for those locked into foolish political narratives initial conversations should be open, non-threatening and tolerant of all beliefs build a little trust, good will and work forward from there? a recipe for success? i'll engage almost anyone as long as hey are sincere and civil obviously hateful speech, grave dancing, finger pointing and insults are not going to get us the desired outcome unfortunately there are a lot of folks that buy into that dogma the results are on display, yet people may not understand why they're not effective i think if you're persistent you will be doing the world a great service good luck
oh grief, looks like I really got up people's noses with my accusation of needing a teddy and a hot chocolate.
Maybe I'll just shout us all a round of hot chocolate...
reaching out and talking it through... ad nauseam if need be.. as one does... so how's your day so far?
real dialogue? the problem with engaging people and honestly addressing concerns is that it will likely lead to an amiable solution in the early stages that could be very uncomfortable or challenging for those locked into foolish political narratives initial conversations should be open, non-threatening and tolerant of all beliefs build a little trust, good will and work forward from there? a recipe for success? i'll engage almost anyone as long as hey are sincere and civil obviously hateful speech, grave dancing, finger pointing and insults are not going to get us the desired outcome unfortunately there are a lot of folks that buy into that dogma the results are on display, yet people may not understand why they're not effective i think if you're persistent you will be doing the world a great service good luck
When A meets B, when the scared and rootless start eroding that general consensus in an attempt to remedy their fears by destroying the very thing holding things together I get kind of angry. edit: and, yes, scared for our future.
I'm gonna repeat my question: What else you got? The fear that civilization is hanging by a thread, btw, is more than a little hyperbolic—but let's say your breathless take is accurate. Shouldn't that motivate you all the more? If it's important enough to make you wring your hands why isn't it important enough for you to try a more persuasive approach?
reaching out and talking it through... ad nauseam if need be.. as one does... so how's your day so far?
And this does not concern you? Seems to me the virus itself and its journey is the more deciding factor and that will reveal itself much sooner.
It seems you are waiting to be proven right about your choice not to get vaccinated — not to be proven wrong about that choice. I am concerned about the virus. I am not concerned about the safety of the vaccine. While acknowledging that nothing is guaranteed or foolproof, I trust those epidemiologists and others in the field who have determined it to be sufficiently safe. I consider placing trust in these people and institutions to be logical. I readily acknowledge that I have no basis or requisite background knowledge upon which to study the issue myself and reach my own conclusion. So, yes, it is a matter of trust in those experts, those institutions, and, writ large, science itself.
I am concerned about both, they are not mutually exclusive.
Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth
Posted:
Aug 12, 2021 - 4:46pm
black321 wrote:
sure, i think this a bit of a communication breakdown:Dont want to speak for him, but... i didnt get the sense Sir was trying to push no vaxx...but rather highlight some of the potential l-t risks of a mrna vaccine.
Suggest you watch the Weinstein video from the covid thread for perspective.
Hmmm . . . I am thinking When The Levee Breaks:
Going down, going down now. Going down. I'm going down now
Going down, going down
Going down, going down
Oh
Going down, going down now
Going down, going down now
Going down, going down now
Going down, going, dow- dow- dow- dow- down now
ooh, ooh
When A meets B, when the scared and rootless start eroding that general consensus in an attempt to remedy their fears by destroying the very thing holding things together I get kind of angry.
edit: and, yes, scared for our future.
I'm gonna repeat my question: What else you got?
The fear that civilization is hanging by a thread, btw, is more than a little hyperbolic—but let's say your breathless take is accurate. Shouldn't that motivate you all the more? If it's important enough to make you wring your hands why isn't it important enough for you to try a more persuasive approach?
The context: I had first asked SirD whether he could be persuaded to get vaccinated and, if so, what might persuade him. He responded by saying that he was choosing to stand by. I wondered how long he would wait to make a determination as it might be years before adverse side effects of the vaccine might surface. He responded by wondering why I was not concerned about that. As reflected in my response that you have bolded, SirDâs responses indicate to me that he has made up his mind and believes the passage of time will validate his choice. In sum, I do not think there is anything that would persuade him to get vaccinated, given his current circumstances and beliefs. So, I believe I have the answers to the questions I posed.
I also acknowledged that his circumstances were rather unique in terms of the degree of isolation he and his wife can and do exercise. He did say that he does make infrequent visits to grocery stores and other such stops. I guess I wonder why he seemingly is trying to convince others that eschewing vaccination is the better choice when he has to know that the circumstances of the lives of the vast majority differ from his. As you say, above, most do not have that option, at least not to that degree. And, as noenz has said, the vast majority do not want to live that way.
sure, i think this a bit of a communication breakdown:Dont want to speak for him, but... i didnt get the sense Sir was trying to push no vaxx...but rather highlight some of the potential l-t risks of a mrna vaccine. Suggest you watch the Weinstein video from the covid thread for perspective.
Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth
Posted:
Aug 12, 2021 - 12:02pm
black321 wrote:
What's wrong with that, in Sird's case? He has the luxury of self isolating, without impacting his economic or personal life, or risking the health of others.
It seems the more prudent step, for him.
The rest of us have to, or want to be out in the world...so the more prudent thing is take the shot.
The context: I had first asked SirD whether he could be persuaded to get vaccinated and, if so, what might persuade him. He responded by saying that he was choosing to stand by. I wondered how long he would wait to make a determination as it might be years before adverse side effects of the vaccine might surface. He responded by wondering why I was not concerned about that. As reflected in my response that you have bolded, SirDâs responses indicate to me that he has made up his mind and believes the passage of time will validate his choice. In sum, I do not think there is anything that would persuade him to get vaccinated, given his current circumstances and beliefs. So, I believe I have the answers to the questions I posed.
I also acknowledged that his circumstances were rather unique in terms of the degree of isolation he and his wife can and do exercise. He did say that he does make infrequent visits to grocery stores and other such stops. I guess I wonder why he seemingly is trying to convince others that eschewing vaccination is the better choice when he has to know that the circumstances of the lives of the vast majority differ from his. As you say, above, most do not have that option, at least not to that degree. And, as noenz has said, the vast majority do not want to live that way.
What's wrong with that, in Sird's case? He has the luxury of self isolating, without impacting his economic or personal life, or risking the health of others.
It seems the more prudent step, for him.
The rest of us have to, or want to be out in the world...so the more prudent thing is take the shot.
nothing in my book. He has chosen isolation and is happy living by it. Fine by me.
What's wrong with that, in Sird's case? He has the luxury of self isolating, without impacting his economic or personal life, or risking the health of others. It seems the more prudent step, for him. The rest of us have to, or want to be out in the world...so the more prudent thing is take the shot.
h3ll, i've been vaccinated twice, two different vaccines AZ late last year in a random control trial, which didn't receive emergency use authorization so my alternative was pfizer (jabbed early and late may)) of course i'm around a lot of people, old people i say that as someone hatched in 60
It seems you are waiting to be proven right about your choice not to get vaccinated â not to be proven wrong about that choice.
I am concerned about the virus. I am not concerned about the safety of the vaccine. While acknowledging that nothing is guaranteed or foolproof, I trust those epidemiologists and others in the field who have determined it to be sufficiently safe. I consider placing trust in these people and institutions to be logical. I readily acknowledge that I have no basis or requisite background knowledge upon which to study the issue myself and reach my own conclusion. So, yes, it is a matter of trust in those experts, those institutions, and, writ large, science itself.
What's wrong with that, in Sird's case? He has the luxury of self isolating, without impacting his economic or personal life, or risking the health of others. It seems the more prudent step, for him. The rest of us have to, or want to be out in the world...so the more prudent thing is take the shot.
It seems you are waiting to be proven right about your choice not to get vaccinated â not to be proven wrong about that choice.
I am concerned about the virus. I am not concerned about the safety of the vaccine. While acknowledging that nothing is guaranteed or foolproof, I trust those epidemiologists and others in the field who have determined it to be sufficiently safe. I consider placing trust in these people and institutions to be logical. I readily acknowledge that I have no basis or requisite background knowledge upon which to study the issue myself and reach my own conclusion. So, yes, it is a matter of trust in those experts, those institutions, and, writ large, science itself.
That's the way I see it too. On an individual level, there are basically two choices:
1. get vaccinated and avoid a real and imminent threat of severe illness (as well as help get the R number below 1 and stymie the spread)
OR
2. not get vaccinated to avoid a potential but unlikely threat of something unforeseen in the distant future (when I could well be dead or demented anyway) which entails accepting the risk of getting severely ill in the near future from the very real pandemic surrounding us.
From a social perspective, there's basically no argument. Get vaccinated or isolate.
Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth
Posted:
Aug 12, 2021 - 6:18am
sirdroseph wrote:
And this does not concern you? Seems to me the virus itself and its journey is the more deciding factor and that will reveal itself much sooner.
It seems you are waiting to be proven right about your choice not to get vaccinated â not to be proven wrong about that choice.
I am concerned about the virus. I am not concerned about the safety of the vaccine. While acknowledging that nothing is guaranteed or foolproof, I trust those epidemiologists and others in the field who have determined it to be sufficiently safe. I consider placing trust in these people and institutions to be logical. I readily acknowledge that I have no basis or requisite background knowledge upon which to study the issue myself and reach my own conclusion. So, yes, it is a matter of trust in those experts, those institutions, and, writ large, science itself.
In addition to that, both my wife and I rarely leave our property even before this all happened because this is our homesteading lifestyle and the outside world offers us very little that we desire so why go anywhere? Basically, we were already built for this and have not had to alter our lives at all sans wearing a mask when going on grocery store and feed supply runs of which only I do. My wife has been blessed to never have the need to leave the property and has no plans to do so. So there is no persuading me either way, I am on standby.
So then why do you continue to question everyone else, who don't have the luxury of hiding from the world and need to interact to survive? Your "math" on risk and reward has almost no relevance in the normal lives of the vast majority of the world. The virus has provided confirmation bias that your concerns about society "were right all along", and apparently lonelinessgives you the time to share videos with the dozen people on these boards to reinforce your point of view. I for one commend your choice to isolate, and thank you on behalf of those where you used to live. Having the luxury to "wait and see" doesn't apply to most, so are they better off risking their lives to the virus or taking what appears to be an incredibly safe, incredibly useful vaccine to protect themselves and the others they interact with? The title of the thread is meant as an indictment to institutions, but selfish misinformation is infinitely more dangerous than any institutional plan.
Loneliness? Loneliness is a state of mind and may or may not have anything to do with the number of people you come in contact with. Some of the most lonely people are constantly surrounded by others. If I were lonely, I would take steps to alleviate this seeing how we have the power to create our own reality.
I have heard others say this. How long would you wait to determine whether the vaccine is sufficiently safe and effective? I ask because it seems that adverse side effects — should they occur — could take years to surface.What are you monitoring while you are waiting? Yes, it does appear you are in a rather unique position in terms of very limited contact with others.
And this does not concern you? Seems to me the virus itself and its journey is the more deciding factor and that will reveal itself much sooner.
In addition to that, both my wife and I rarely leave our property even before this all happened because this is our homesteading lifestyle and the outside world offers us very little that we desire so why go anywhere? Basically, we were already built for this and have not had to alter our lives at all sans wearing a mask when going on grocery store and feed supply runs of which only I do. My wife has been blessed to never have the need to leave the property and has no plans to do so. So there is no persuading me either way, I am on standby.
So then why do you continue to question everyone else, who don't have the luxury of hiding from the world and need to interact to survive? Your "math" on risk and reward has almost no relevance in the normal lives of the vast majority of the world. The virus has provided confirmation bias that your concerns about society "were right all along", and apparently loneliness gives you the time to share videos with the dozen people on these boards to reinforce your point of view. I for one commend your choice to isolate, and thank you on behalf of those where you used to live.
Having the luxury to "wait and see" doesn't apply to most, so are they better off risking their lives to the virus or taking what appears to be an incredibly safe, incredibly useful vaccine to protect themselves and the others they interact with?
The title of the thread is meant as an indictment to institutions, but selfish misinformation is infinitely more dangerous than any institutional plan.
