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R_P

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Posted: Jul 11, 2023 - 6:26pm

Continued...
Many observers expected NATO to close shop after the collapse of its Cold War rival. But in the decade after 1989, the organization truly came into its own. NATO acted as a ratings agency for the European Union in Eastern Europe, declaring countries secure for development and investment. The organization pushed would-be partners to adhere to a liberal, pro-market creed, according to which — as President Bill Clinton’s national security adviser put it — “the pursuit of democratic institutions, the expansion of free markets” and “the promotion of collective security” marched in lock step. European military professionals and reform-minded elites formed a willing constituency, their campaigns boosted by NATO’s information apparatus.

When European populations proved too stubborn, or undesirably swayed by socialist or nationalist sentiments, Atlantic integration proceeded all the same. The Czech Republic was a telling case. Faced with a likely “no” vote in a referendum on joining the alliance in 1997, the secretary general and top NATO officials saw to it that the government in Prague simply dispense with the exercise; the country joined two years later. The new century brought more of the same, with an appropriate shift in emphasis. Coinciding with the global war on terrorism, the “big bang” expansion of 2004 — in which seven countries acceded — saw counterterrorism supersede democracy and human rights in alliance rhetoric. Stress on the need for liberalization and public sector reforms remained a constant.

In the realm of defense, the alliance was not as advertised. For decades, the United States has been the chief provider of weapons, logistics, air bases and battle plans. The war in Ukraine, for all the talk of Europe stepping up, has left that asymmetry essentially untouched. Tellingly, the scale of U.S. military aid — $47 billion over the first year of the conflict — is more than double that offered by European Union countries combined. European spending pledges may also turn out to be less impressive than they appear. More than a year after the German government publicized the creation of a special $110 billion fund for its armed forces, the bulk of the credits remain unused. In the meantime, German military commanders have said that they lack sufficient munitions for more than two days of high-intensity combat.

Red_Dragon

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Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Jul 11, 2023 - 4:02pm

 VV wrote:

Dammit the master plan has been revealed. America goaded the jack-hole Putin and his backward country to invade Ukraine in an effort to boost the US economy. 
 
Well let's face it... someone has to supply the military hardware and it certainly wouldn't be Russia what with its Jiffy Pop tanks and hypersonic weapons that can be shot from the sky with pistols.



  good one
VV

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Posted: Jul 11, 2023 - 3:59pm

 R_P wrote:
NATO Isn’t What It Says It Is

(...) The alliance, paradoxically, appears to have weakened allies’ ability to defend themselves.

Yet the paradox is only superficial. In fact, NATO is working exactly as it was designed by postwar U.S. planners, drawing Europe into a dependency on American power that reduces its room for maneuver. Far from a costly charity program, NATO secures American influence in Europe on the cheap. U.S. contributions to NATO and other security assistance programs in Europe account for a tiny fraction of the Pentagon’s annual budget — less than 6 percent by a recent estimate. And the war has only strengthened America’s hand. Before Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, roughly half of European military spending went to American manufacturers. Surging demand has exacerbated this tendency as buyers rush to acquire tanks, combat aircraft and other weapons systems, locking into costly, multiyear contracts. Europe may be remilitarizing, but America is reaping the rewards. (...)



Dammit the master plan has been revealed. America goaded the jack-hole Putin and his backward country to invade Ukraine in an effort to boost the US economy. 
 
Well let's face it... someone has to supply the military hardware and it certainly wouldn't be Russia what with its Jiffy Pop tanks and hypersonic weapons that can be shot from the sky with pistols.

R_P

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Posted: Jul 11, 2023 - 11:37am

NATO Isn’t What It Says It Is

(...) The alliance, paradoxically, appears to have weakened allies’ ability to defend themselves.

Yet the paradox is only superficial. In fact, NATO is working exactly as it was designed by postwar U.S. planners, drawing Europe into a dependency on American power that reduces its room for maneuver. Far from a costly charity program, NATO secures American influence in Europe on the cheap. U.S. contributions to NATO and other security assistance programs in Europe account for a tiny fraction of the Pentagon’s annual budget — less than 6 percent by a recent estimate. And the war has only strengthened America’s hand. Before Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, roughly half of European military spending went to American manufacturers. Surging demand has exacerbated this tendency as buyers rush to acquire tanks, combat aircraft and other weapons systems, locking into costly, multiyear contracts. Europe may be remilitarizing, but America is reaping the rewards. (...)


VV

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Posted: Jul 11, 2023 - 10:34am

 R_P wrote:

To a smaller or larger degree (depending on specific countries). There's no doubt the US 'runs' the Ukraine shitshow.



Ahh America is responsible for the state of affairs?

…Gotcha Comrade!
R_P

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Posted: Jul 11, 2023 - 9:17am

Same problem: Europe Can’t Supply Ukraine With Weapons Fast Enough, Here’s Why
Why Nato will have to evolve at America’s pace
Finance and politics mean that US caution over Ukrainian membership of the alliance will prevail
But the reality is the American view will have to prevail. The US accounts for roughly 70 per cent of the total defence spending of all Nato countries. So Nato policy will ultimately be decided in Washington, not Brussels or Vilnius.

R_P

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Posted: Jul 11, 2023 - 8:52am

 VV wrote:

I also notice that R_P seems to conveniently forget that there are a lot of other NATO nations supporting Ukraine and in some cases have provided it with more advanced weaponry than what the US has provided to date (or a least did until recently). But not once have I ever seen R_P post anything criticizing or denigrating the support provided by these other countries,,, why? I guess he must feel that every other NATO country (along with Ukraine itself) are just puppets to the will of the US.  


To a smaller or larger degree (depending on specific countries). There's no doubt the US 'runs' the Ukraine shitshow.

VV

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Posted: Jul 11, 2023 - 7:57am

 kcar wrote:

Hi R_P, just saw the link in your previous post. My bad.

I thought about your posts on Ukraine during a long walk. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems you disapprove of American involvement in Ukraine's fight because you (apparently) view it as a sign of American hegemony and the power of the American military-industrial complex.

I don't recall seeing disapproval of Russia's actions in your posts, however. Am I wrong? It strikes be that all of your disapproval of America's actions could also be directed at Russia, with greater relevance to the facts of the war and Putin's thinking.


I also notice that R_P seems to conveniently forget that there are a lot of other NATO nations supporting Ukraine and in some cases have provided it with more advanced weaponry than what the US has provided to date (or a least did until recently). But not once have I ever seen R_P post anything criticizing or denigrating the support provided by these other countries,,, why? I guess he must feel that every other NATO country (along with Ukraine itself) are just puppets to the will of the US.  

VV

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Posted: Jul 11, 2023 - 7:49am

 R_P wrote:

There always is in Exceptionalistan.


Don't know what that is....

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jul 10, 2023 - 10:07pm

 R_P wrote:
 kcar wrote:

I thought about your posts on Ukraine during a long walk. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems you disapprove of American involvement in Ukraine's fight because you (apparently) view it as a sign of American hegemony and the power of the American military-industrial complex. I don't recall seeing disapproval of Russia's actions in your posts, however. Am I wrong? It strikes be that all of your disapproval of America's actions could also be directed at Russia, with greater relevance to the facts of the war and Putin's thinking.


To some extent, yes. A sign certainly. An overrated and overused power. But if all you have is a hammer... I don't approve of Russia's invasion. Or any other invasions.
 
That took a long time coming.  Yes, I can live with that approach. Ideally we wouldn't have national borders and would rather live by some kind of charter that minimized our impact on the environment and maximized human and environmental well-being, but then you might say I was a dreamer..   as a species we seem to be miles away from that and actually moving in the opposite direction.
R_P

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Posted: Jul 10, 2023 - 7:24pm

 kcar wrote:

I thought about your posts on Ukraine during a long walk. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems you disapprove of American involvement in Ukraine's fight because you (apparently) view it as a sign of American hegemony and the power of the American military-industrial complex.

I don't recall seeing disapproval of Russia's actions in your posts, however. Am I wrong? It strikes be that all of your disapproval of America's actions could also be directed at Russia, with greater relevance to the facts of the war and Putin's thinking.


To some extent, yes. A sign certainly. An overrated and overused power. But if all you have is a hammer...

I don't approve of Russia's invasion. Or any other invasions.

kcar

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Posted: Jul 10, 2023 - 7:03pm

Hi R_P, just saw the link in your previous post. My bad.

I thought about your posts on Ukraine during a long walk. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems you disapprove of American involvement in Ukraine's fight because you (apparently) view it as a sign of American hegemony and the power of the American military-industrial complex.

I don't recall seeing disapproval of Russia's actions in your posts, however. Am I wrong? It strikes be that all of your disapproval of America's actions could also be directed at Russia, with greater relevance to the facts of the war and Putin's thinking.
R_P

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Posted: Jul 10, 2023 - 4:35pm

 kcar wrote:
I watched the PBS News Hour segment and discussion which you quoted without attribution, R_P.

There's a single link that careful readers are likely to notice.
For those worried about losing moral high ground or making the war more vicious and collaterally damaging, I'd point out that I haven't heard or read about good alternatives to cluster bomb usage.

In order to lose the moral high ground you'd have to occupy it first.
The bombing campaign was aimed at hemming in America’s enemies in neighboring Vietnam. The U.S. was never at war with the people of Laos, and the American people were largely oblivious to the bombing campaign in the country at the time.

kcar

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Posted: Jul 10, 2023 - 4:29pm


The NYT op-ed is interesting and offers good points against using cluster bombs. I watched the PBS News Hour segment and discussion which you quoted without attribution, R_P. You can find the video and transcript of the news piece and accompanying debate here

Former Human Rights Watch Investigator Galasco thinks sending US cluster bombs is a drop down a slippery moral slope with questionable strategic and tactical value. He notes that American cluster bomb use in the Gulf War caused significant casualties amongst civilians and US troops. He also pointed out that our use of cluster bombs in '91 and in the Iraqi war in 2003 created areas where US troops couldn't maneuver through their own cluster bombs had been dropped down. Apparently Galasco thinks that Ukraine can without them. 

Former Ambassador to Ukraine Taylor thinks that Ukrainian use of American-supplied cluster bombs is necessary to sustain and improve the Ukrainians' chances of pushing the Russians back. (I have read that cluster bombs are highly effective in clearing troops hunkered down in trenches as the Russians are). Taylor notes that the Ukrainians are running out of other forms of artillery weapons. Taylor admits that our cluster bombs would likely add to the amount of unexploded ordinance in Ukraine but points out that the Russians started using cluster bombs first and their cluster bombs have a much higher dud rate even when one adjusts for the Pentagon's rosy claims that US cluster bombs have a marginal failure rate. As he sees it, cluster bombs are just a small part of the unexploded ordinance problem.

I agree with VV: the Ukrainians have a right to decide whether they want to use such weapons in their self-defense on their own territory. For those worried about losing moral high ground or making the war more vicious and collaterally damaging, I'd point out that I haven't heard or read about good alternatives to cluster bomb usage. Yes, we have more precise weapons but they're not reaching the Ukrainians in sufficient numbers or with needed speed. 

The alternative to not sending cluster bombs could mean the failure of the Ukrainian offensive, the prolongation of this war, a stronger Russian hold over Ukrainian territory (and more territory) and eventual consolidation of Russian invading forces. 

You can be upset about the ugly aspect of US involvement in this war, R_P, but the fact remains that the Russians invaded a peaceful neighbor and have committed just about every conceivable war atrocity. I don't think you can expect the Ukrainians and their allies to avoid the deadly use of force in response, even if it raises the risk of more civilian deaths. 
R_P

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Posted: Jul 10, 2023 - 3:29pm

You know, I think we have to question what the reality is here and where is it going to stop. The potential for civilian harm is just too high. You know, you spoke about the dud rate, right? And these munitions, the Pentagon is now saying, well, they only have a 2 percent dud rate.

But when you look at the U.S. government's actual figures, the Government Accountability Office, for example, it has a 23 percent dud rate. If we look at a standard volley from rocket artillery, which would be six rockets fired from HIMARS, you're looking at over 3,800 cluster munitions.

That's 888 duds that are on the ground that potentially could kill civilians. And we're looking at DPICM that are fired from artillery shells, each shell would have 20 unexploded bomblets.

We had a meeting today with the National Security Council, and it was kind of one of these things where you get together and they try to make the NGOs feel happy and say, we have got a control on this, we have diplomatic assurances.

The reality is, when we asked them, how did you come to these new numbers, were there tests, how were the tests completed, did you have them done under hermetically sealed manner, or was it actually a field test in a war, as I have seen and covered in the past? And they were unable to answer our questions. It just was unacceptable.


R_P

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Posted: Jul 10, 2023 - 12:45pm

 VV wrote:
There is one big caveat. (...)

There always is in Exceptionalistan.

VV

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Posted: Jul 10, 2023 - 12:32pm

 R_P wrote:

Aside from (likely larger) Russian stockpiles of the same...
The Flawed Moral Logic of Sending Cluster Munitions to Ukraine

However compelling it may be to use any available weapon to protect one’s homeland, nations in the rules-based international order have increasingly sought to draw a red line against use of weapons of mass destruction or weapons that pose a severe and lingering risk to noncombatants. Cluster munitions clearly fall into the second category.


There is one big caveat. The Ukrainians are giving permission to use these munitions on targets in their own country and therefore sanctioning any negative long-term repercussions this may have in their own country.  

R_P

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Posted: Jul 10, 2023 - 11:48am

Aside from (likely larger) Russian stockpiles of the same...
The Flawed Moral Logic of Sending Cluster Munitions to Ukraine
However compelling it may be to use any available weapon to protect one’s homeland, nations in the rules-based international order have increasingly sought to draw a red line against use of weapons of mass destruction or weapons that pose a severe and lingering risk to noncombatants. Cluster munitions clearly fall into the second category. (...)

The White House bypassed Congress by invoking a provision of the Foreign Assistance Act that allows the president to disregard arms export restrictions if he deems the aid to be a vital national security interest.

kcar

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Posted: Jul 9, 2023 - 4:52pm

 westslope wrote:

No.  But we are willing to crowdfund reading lessons for you kcar.



Ask your doctor about Aricept, westslope! And have a super day!   

VV

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Posted: Jul 9, 2023 - 4:18pm

 westslope wrote:

Kind of like the Hill Top Youths in the West Bank?  


Don’t know what that is or how it applies.

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