Location: Around My Corner... and Up Yours Gender:
Posted:
May 26, 2014 - 10:27am
mutepoint wrote:
Is the issue one of resistance, or of impedance? Check with the manufacturer. If resistance, the long wire run (with heavier gauge) should be fine. If impedance, that's much trickier. Or perhaps there's an online forum for pool controller installer guys - and your question has already been addressed.
According to their tech, the issue is resistance. He's the one that suggested 15 or even 20k sensor.
The project is sold and signed, so I've got to come up with something.
Location: Around My Corner... and Up Yours Gender:
Posted:
May 26, 2014 - 10:19am
DaveInVA wrote:
It may also be a problem of it picking up electrical noise and confusing the controller at that distance. Thats why with lets say microphones you use a balanced circuit on runs over 20 ft to cancel out spurious noise pick up. You might get away with using sheilded cable but for that kind of distance even that might not help.
95%+ of the wire will be in a SCH40 PVC conduit buried a minimum of 12" deep. That same conduit will be another wire that will carry data and about 10VDC for pump speed control. In the same trench will be another conduit with a 120VAC 20AMP circuit to twin LED underwater pool lights. I'll go with a larger shielded wire, but what else can I do? I've had someone suggest a higher resistance sensor, but then calibration would be iffy.
I'm installing a digital controller for a swimming pool system that uses a 10kΩ sensor to read water temperature. Typically the distance between the control board and the sensor is under 20ft. On this particular job, the distance will be somewhere between 250 and 300ft. My semi basic electrical knowledge tells me that you overcome distance with wire size, just as you do with hydraulics and pipe size.
The manufacturer of the controller claims that no matter the wire size, you simply cannot get the resistor to overcome distances over about 125ft. I normally use 20 to 22AWG wire. Why won't a 14 or 12 gauge wire deliver the resistance news to my control board?
Thoughts?
sounds like the manufacturer has done the math/testing and letting the consumer know the recommended o/p
if you go outside of that rec and there's a problem later you may be liable (void warranties, etc.)
Location: No longer in a hovel in effluent Damnville, VA Gender:
Posted:
May 26, 2014 - 10:01am
Steve wrote:
I'm installing a digital controller for a swimming pool system that uses a 10kΩ sensor to read water temperature. Typically the distance between the control board and the sensor is under 20ft. On this particular job, the distance will be somewhere between 250 and 300ft. My semi basic electrical knowledge tells me that you overcome distance with wire size, just as you do with hydraulics and pipe size.
The manufacturer of the controller claims that no matter the wire size, you simply cannot get the resistor to overcome distances over about 125ft. I normally use 20 to 22AWG wire. Why won't a 14 or 12 gauge wire deliver the resistance news to my control board?
Thoughts?
It may also be a problem of it picking up electrical noise and confusing the controller at that distance. Thats why with lets say microphones you use a balanced circuit on runs over 20 ft to cancel out spurious noise pick up. You might get away with using sheilded cable but for that kind of distance even that might not help.
Location: Around My Corner... and Up Yours Gender:
Posted:
May 26, 2014 - 9:53am
I'm installing a digital controller for a swimming pool system that uses a 10kΩ sensor to read water temperature. Typically the distance between the control board and the sensor is under 20ft. On this particular job, the distance will be somewhere between 250 and 300ft. My semi basic electrical knowledge tells me that you overcome distance with wire size, just as you do with hydraulics and pipe size.
The manufacturer of the controller claims that no matter the wire size, you simply cannot get the resistor to overcome distances over about 125ft. I normally use 20 to 22AWG wire. Why won't a 14 or 12 gauge wire deliver the resistance news to my control board?
How are incompetent contractors that may be licensed but either don't know or don't really care about doing the job correctly going to be discovered and delicensed? Is an ignorant homeowner going to turn them in?
Best to know this stuff yourself so you can at least tell if the person you are paying is doing it right. If you're concerned about insurance issues, by all means have a licensed electrician look over your work.
My wife was a painting sub for a major area remodling outfit for a couple of years but quit after she caught them in too many lies and saw bullshit work like kitchen vents just emptying out into what ever space was handy rather than finishing it off all the way outside or tying it into something existing. That and bogus wiring. She didn't want her good name ruined.
Two things you never want to cut corners on or cheat: plumbing and electrical. Everything else, not as critical, but its still always best to do things right, the first time, so its the only time.
The unknowledgable homer owner ? Well its simply a crap shoot, without a word of mouth recomendation from a friend or neighbor. I don't know about Angie's List but I guess its a good place to start, or get a recommendation from your small local hardware store or paint store. They know.
How are incompetent contractors that may be licensed but either don't know or don't really care about doing the job correctly going to be discovered and delicensed? Is an ignorant homeowner going to turn them in?
Best to know this stuff yourself so you can at least tell if the person you are paying is doing it right. If you're concerned about insurance issues, by all means have a licensed electrician look over your work.
Yes, it is best to have a general idea about what's being done, but a non-licensed homeowner would be ill-advised to rewire a house, install an HVAC system, do major plumbing work, or run natural gas lines, at least without assistance from a licensed professional. If a job is incorrectly done by a contractor - licensed or not, it will not pass inspection. When that contractor's work fails its inspection, the general contractor will generally be required to pay a fine to the municipality - the costs of which will be passed on to the sub-contractor whose work failed; the building will not be granted a certificate of occupancy until all work has passed inspection. If a contractor's work continually fails inspections or results in catastrophic results, that contractor will see less work from most GCs, and he can have his license revoked by the state. On uninspected work, the onus of "inspection" would obviously fall more to the owner, but later evidence of incorrect work could be traced to the contractor who did the work and there could be legal recourse. There probably aren't as many incompetent licensed contractors as some would have us believe, at least from a safety standpoint, but I guess that can vary, based on locales.
When one pays a licensed professional to do a job, the expectation is that it will be done correctly; most communities have laws regarding such things. If something is done incorrectly, a licensed contractor is liable for any damages or repairs - though it could take years in court. If a homeowner poorly rewires their house, bypassing an inspection, and that house burns to the ground, their homeowners' insurance will generally not cover it.
How are incompetent contractors that may be licensed but either don't know or don't really care about doing the job correctly going to be discovered and delicensed? Is an ignorant homeowner going to turn them in?
Best to know this stuff yourself so you can at least tell if the person you are paying is doing it right. If you're concerned about insurance issues, by all means have a licensed electrician look over your work.
I don't know who did the work before we bought it, but we did buy it from the original owner. The AC had to be done, well one would think that a licensed HVAC company installed it, but the tie in was crazy wrong. If they had used a ganged breaker, it might have been ok, but they still used under guage wire and the wrong kind of box at the compressor. Its ok, but not correct and would not have passed inspection. The garage add on again was double tapped on a shared 50 amp breaker. That surely would not have passed inspection....
...When it comes to buildings, beauty is as thin as a coat of paint.
Yes, usually you can never tell who was doing work in the house before you got there. You would imagine that licensed guys did the install and that it was inspected, but you never know - someone may have been tinkering in there after an initial install. It's good that you guys are familiar with the procedures and the work, and can do a lot yourselves. It's also true that sometimes a good paint job makes a huge difference. Good luck in you continued endeavors, congratulations again.
You can mangle the ends just as well with those, but you do save the thumb on your holding hand.
They don't buckle as easy either. I let the end mushroom and cut it off. I'd use one of those cap thingies if I thought it would come off when I was done, and if I had one.
When one pays a licensed professional to do a job, the expectation is that it will be done correctly; most communities have laws regarding such things. If something is done incorrectly, a licensed contractor is liable for any damages or repairs - though it could take years in court. If a homeowner poorly rewires their house, bypassing an inspection, and that house burns to the ground, their homeowners' insurance will generally not cover it.
I don't know who did the work before we bought it, but we did buy it from the original owner. The AC had to be done, well one would think that a licensed HVAC company installed it, but the tie in was crazy wrong. If they had used a ganged breaker, it might have been ok, but they still used under guage wire and the wrong kind of box at the compressor. Its ok, but not correct and would not have passed inspection. The garage add on again was double tapped on a shared 50 amp breaker. That surely would not have passed inspection.
My Dad was an architect and after he hung up his drafting tools, was a building inspector for a couple of towns nearby and a State of Ohio Arbitrator for building disputes between owners and contractors. I've been crawling around jobs sites with my Dad since I learned how to tie my shoes. I have rudementary knowledge of the basics and know when I can and cannot do something beyond my skills. I can do basic carpentry, wiring and plumbing, but doing a box and working with the live feed, ain't no way in hell. Plus I don't know how to make sure the legs are balanced. We had to do it live because in order to pull the meter and get it reconnected, the electric company would require the city building inspector to pass the work. In light of everything we now know about the place, we could have found out that the garage was built without a permit and lord knows what else. That is a can of worms no one wants to open. Hell, if the garage was built without a permit, they could require us to tear it down. Or they could have been nice and asked us to pay for the permits and a fine. Don't know and don't want to find out. There are a few localities that we know of nearby that have required things like that to be torn down regardless if they met code or not.
Because of Patty's painting and remodeling business, she ( and I eventually ) watches all the DIY shows and have seen the best and the worst of experiences across the board. It has paid off.
I lucked into finding this guy. The phone interview I had with him before the inspection gave me reassurance that the guy was qualified to do the inspection. Patty was also a California licensed GC, so she caught many things and was impressed as well. During the inspection, I became convinced that he was what he claimed. He took us through everything and explained it fully and didn't pull punches or yank our chain. He went the extra mile. The inspection was actually cut short because the sales agent had to go do something else and wouldn't let us continue after about 2 hours. He said his normal inspection takes 4 to 5 hours. We received a detailed report with pictures, reasons and estimates for repairs.
I'm helping him do it so I know it is being done properly and he is showing me and telling me why he is doing this and that. In the end, it will cost us nearly $2300 for all of his work, but it will be done properly, professionally and meet current codes plus come with a 3 year warranty. And we will have piece of mind knowing that we have fixed all the dangers, properly. One thing I learned from my Dad and from Patty's work is that in order to make sure that things are done properly, the owner or builder in my Dad's case, must be present as much as possible looking over everyone's shoulders. If your subs have a problem with your presence, you need to find new subs.
When it comes to buildings, beauty is as thin as a coat of paint.
when swinging a sledge hammer shouldn't you face the object and spread your legs like this
If I was swinging' at grounding rods on a normal basis, then yeah... I'd spend the coin for one of those. I hated the last one I pounded down without one.
When I worked as a lineman, we drove ground rods by hand, using a 10lb sledge head welded onto a steel tube where the handle would be. Stick the tube over the end of the rod, slide it up and then with both hands, slam it down. Very effective.
Wow. When people lament to me about how they don't really have the time and inclination to learn how to do needed repairs or remodeling jobs themselves, so it's worth it to "let the professionals do it", I just shake my head. Just because you're paying money to someone doesn't mean they are going to do the job correctly.
When one pays a licensed professional to do a job, the expectation is that it will be done correctly; most communities have laws regarding such things. If something is done incorrectly, a licensed contractor is liable for any damages or repairs - though it could take years in court. If a homeowner poorly rewires their house, bypassing an inspection, and that house burns to the ground, their homeowners' insurance will generally not cover it.
