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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Meltdown Monday? Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 43, 44, 45  Next
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Servo

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Location: Down on the Farm
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 26, 2009 - 6:28pm

 MayBaby wrote:
I think ya missed NoEnz point.
 
There was a point?  Looks all O/T to me!


MayBaby

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Location: Savannah, Georgia
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Posted: Jan 26, 2009 - 6:17pm

 Servo wrote:

Obama is "spending big"?  Why?  On what?  Why isn't this in the news?

What a man does with his own finances is his own business.  I do find it hard to believe that a man who has just moved into the grandest government subsidized housing in the US, and has planes, trains and automobiles at his disposal would have any reason to "spend big".  Nor do I believe that a man who has made millions of dollars from book sales needs to borrow.  I think that you've been mislead.

New Zealand had an oil crisis in 1972?  A year before the 1973 OPEC oil embargo?  That must have sucked...

 
Oops... I think ya missed NoEnz point. Dang, maybe I  did... going back to reread...

Servo

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Posted: Jan 26, 2009 - 6:12pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
The govn. of the day responded by borrowing abroad and spending big just like Obama is doing now.
 
Obama is "spending big"?  Why?  On what?  Why isn't this in the news?

What a man does with his own finances is his own business.  I do find it hard to believe that a man who has just moved into the grandest government subsidized housing in the US, and has planes, trains and automobiles at his disposal would have any reason to "spend big".  Nor do I believe that a man who has made millions of dollars from book sales needs to borrow.  I think that you've been mislead.

New Zealand had an oil crisis in 1972?  A year before the 1973 OPEC oil embargo?  That must have sucked...


NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jan 26, 2009 - 1:10pm

This has all made me go back to look at a classic case of govn. interventionism in NZ called "Think Big" (kiwis aren't good at this).

At the time, NZ was deep in the shit. It had lost its export market because the UK had joined the common market (yes, unbeliveably the UK was virtually our only export market at the time)
and imports had spiralled out of control because of the 1972 oil crisis.

The govn. of the day responded by borrowing abroad and spending big just like Obama is doing now. A few years later we were on the verge of an Argentinian type monetary collapse, the government changed and
massive free market reforms were brought in. For many years the accepted opinion was that Think Big was an unmitigated disaster but I see the wiki entry is now much more ambivalent (probably written by Brian Easton, one of our most respected economists)
Sometimes it seems, this could be the right policy if govenment spends its money right. That said I agree with the main tenet of your article P. i.e. that the main crisis is one of faith (founded in turn on economic fundamentals). It's pretty risky spending on credit, no matter who does it.

I can only hope it pays off but the odds are pretty much against it.

Servo

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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 4:43pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
That ran through my head too for a nano-second. Totally unworkable I guess.
 
Of course it's totally unworkable!  Think about it:
  • Why are US investment banks and other voodoo economics institutions failing?  Because people and businesses have been defaulting on the loans that they made.
  • Why did the defaults cause the financial institutions to fail?  Because, unlike regular banks, the voodoo economics institutions don't have any cash money to back up those loans!
The fact of the matter is that there is no institution there to forgive those loans!

If the US government underwrote the loan forgiveness, that would set up a vicious cycle.  The money that is needed to forgive personal credit would have to be collected from the same people!  The money would just go 'round and 'round, getting less and less, as the overhead of moving that money eroded the capital.  And that cost of shuffling money would mean even more tax dollars that would be necessary to raise to cover the losses.  No thanks!

I'm not a professional economist, but I do have common sense, and a copy of the Constitution.  I know that the Constitution does not guarantee perpetual success of Big Business.  The notion that businesses are too big to be allowed to fail is an outright lie.  Not only can failed big businesses fold, they should fold!  It's not like the result is mayhem; bankruptcy laws have provided for the orderly dissolution of businesses large and small for centuries.  Has anything changed that makes bankruptcy suddenly impractical?  Hell no!

I don't know if it's legally possible to repossess the $350B that the Bush administration tricked us into giving to the voodoo economics institutions.  But now that they're back asking for more, after giving that $350B to their top executives, I firmly believe that we should say "NO".  Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

Let the creditors go into receivership.  Let the debtors settle their debts for pennies on the dollar where that's the only solution, and let the debtors who can't even manage that file for personal bankruptcy as a last resort.

The remaining $350B would be best spent in part on covering the budget shortfall caused by a temporary, emergency tax decrease for individuals, which will help them pay their bills and remain solvent.  Businesses may come and go, but we don't exterminate people over personal debts.  The remaining part should be spent on public works projects that kill two birds with one stone: repair our failing national infrastructures, and put people back to work.  We have a precedent for this tack: FDR.  That's precisely what FDR did to address the Great Depression, and it worked.


Isabeau

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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 4:07pm

 Servo wrote:

And where did those "spendthrift US consumers" pick up their bad habits?

I came of age during the Carter administration.  I remember the economic mayhem that came out of the Nixon/Ford administrations.  At the time I "drank the Kool-Aid" and bought into the lie that Carter and Volcker's economic austerity program wasn't working, but the fact is that it did.  It was Reagan's "voodoo economics" that encouraged US consumers to buy things on borrowed money.  Before that, the wisdom of the generation that had lived through the Great Depression was the rule of the day.  Before 1980 people simply didn't use credit cards, they paid with cash.  If they didn't have the cash, they didn't buy it.  (That's not to say that people didn't have credit cards.  It's saying that they didn't use the cards if they didn't have money in the bank to pay off the full balance, and actually pay that balance in full, promptly.)

{#Yes}
Just about the time that CREDIT CARD INTEREST RATES WERE NO LONGER DEDUCTABLE UNDER NEW US TAX LAW (1977-79)

People of affluence realized it no longer benefited them to buy on credit, so they paid with cash. The banks realized they've lost a good reason for the wealthy to use credit cards, so they gambled, on a new crop of 20-something entitled baby boomers that grabbed them up like candy....


Servo

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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 3:56pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Well, not his alone, I'm afraid.  and it doesn't even stop with spendthrift US consumers.
 
And where did those "spendthrift US consumers" pick up their bad habits?

I came of age during the Carter administration.  I remember the economic mayhem that came out of the Nixon/Ford administrations.  At the time I "drank the Kool-Aid" and bought into the lie that Carter and Volcker's economic austerity program wasn't working, but the fact is that it did.  It was Reagan's "voodoo economics" that encouraged US consumers to buy things on borrowed money.  Before that, the wisdom of the generation that had lived through the Great Depression was the rule of the day.  Before 1980 people simply didn't use credit cards, they paid with cash.  If they didn't have the cash, they didn't buy it.  (That's not to say that people didn't have credit cards.  It's saying that they didn't use the cards if they didn't have money in the bank to pay off the full balance, and actually pay that balance in full, promptly.)

In consumer law, if a huckster rips off a consumer, it's the huckster who's 100% to blame, not the duped consumer.  Is there any real difference when the huckster is a politician or lobbyist instead of the salesperson?  I don't think so!  I think that GOP talking points are subtly blaming the victims.  And I'm not biting!

Most producing nations were very happy to sell goods and services to US citizens and were quite prepared to fund it. Can you imagine the Chinese economy ever having enjoyed the growth it did without a credit bubble in the US? And the Germans were quite happy to supply the Chinese with the machines to make the products ... and the Brits were happy to sell insurance to the Germans... etc. etc. it goes on and on.

First of all, if you look at the migration of industrial production from America to Japan, then from Japan to democratic Asian nations like Taiwan (free and democratic China), and finally to Communist China, you'll see that the impetus is the cost of labor, not the readiness of credit.  Remember that the Communist Chinese Yuan wasn't hard currency until very recently.  Communist China didn't get European-made goods on credit!

The true story is that Communist China accumulated a whole lot of hard currency, mostly US Dollars, by selling goods to the US.  Communist China didn't start extending credit to the US until just recently.  They simply didn't have the hard currency to do so!  And the US' debt with Communist China isn't related to consumer spending; it's all to fund the Cheney/Rumsfeld wars.

What we are witnessing is endemic system failure. Not merely the evil blossoming of greed, though that no doubt played a part in it.

What makes you think that it has to be an either/or thing?

I have noticed for a long time now that the GOP lies to people, making appeals to greed, fear, and all the other Seven Deadly sins.  That is their modus operandi.  It has been for as long as I've been sentient.  The system has failed because the GOP has been aggressively marketing the lie that you can have your cake and eat it too.

I personally suspect we are just at the very beginning of major change. We just haven't realized what those changes will be yet.

I agree with that.  And I can tell you what the "major change" is all about.  The great American empire, just like every great empire before it, is collapsing under its own moral decay.


Alchemist

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Location: San Jose, CA
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 2:57pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Seriously what are Obama's options now? 
 
Since you asked {#Wink}

A Radical Re-Imagining Of The Tax System

Russell Roberts01.23.09, 03:55 PM EST

What I'd like to hear Obama say.

President Obama is eager to attack the economic crisis. Here is the speech I'd like to hear from him.

My fellow Americans, these are fearful times.

Through a set of public and private mistakes, our financial system is in disarray. The problems of Wall Street have spread to Main Street. Unemployment is on the rise.

Key sectors of our economy face unparalleled challenges. The auto industry is reeling. Housing and construction are in deep trouble. The financial sector has been hit with bankruptcy and layoffs. The retail sector is struggling.

Workers, investors, managers and entrepreneurs face a fog of doubt and uncertainty. When will the economy rebound? Will I lose my job? Will my products sell as they once did and at what price?

Investors and employers, consumers and entrepreneurs are sitting on the sidelines. Such caution is understandable. Until people are confident of the future, our economy is going to struggle.

What can the federal government do to unleash the forces of recovery?

Many are urging a massive increase in government spending coupled with tax rebates as a way to jump start the economy. But the economy is not stagnant because of a lack of spending. The economy is stagnant because of a lack of confidence in the future. Government spending on bridges, roads and new schools will stimulate the construction industry. But without confidence, the benefits will not spread to the rest of the economy.

The argument for a massive spending increase presumes that spending is the source of our prosperity. But it is the combination of prudent spending and prudent investment that creates prosperity.

And would a trillion-dollar increase in the federal budget deficit enhance investor or consumer confidence? What costs will a spending increase of that magnitude impose on not just future generations but on this generation next year and the year after?

Trillions of dollars of annual red ink puts at risk the government's ability to keep its promises. That will discourage private investment and private spending, imperiling any recovery that might take place based on private initiative.

Finally, adding a trillion dollars to an already bloated federal budget is another sign that we in Washington are irresponsible and unable to live within our means. It is that failure of will and discipline that helped create the current situation—a belief that we could have cheap credit and ever-expanding home ownership without any consequences.

A massive increase in spending on hurried projects of uncertain value, financed by borrowing, is a promise to raise taxes in the future and to squander resources in the meanwhile. That is not the road to recovery. That is not the road to prosperity.

What is needed instead is a set of steps to stimulate the productive side of our economy. A tax rebate of either the payroll tax or the income does not stimulate investment. There is no evidence that rebates even stimulate spending. Rebates do not change the incentives of consumers to spend or savers to invest. Past rebates have consistently failed to encourage economic activity.

Instead, I'm proposing today a radical re-imagining of our tax system. I am recommending the elimination of the payroll tax. The payroll tax is a regressive tax that falls harshly on the poor. And it is deceptive, an unacceptable characteristic of a tax in a democracy.

Half of the payroll tax appears to be paid by employers. In fact, studies of the payroll tax show that the employer merely lowers worker compensation in response to the tax burden. So workers pay virtually the entire 15%.

Worse, the payroll tax gives the illusion that taxes are "contributions" toward future social security payments. In fact, the payroll tax is used to finance current recipients of Social Security and Medicare along with other government spending such as the war on Iraq and welfare for wealth farmers.

This fools workers into thinking such programs are cheaper than they actually are. This artificially encourages the demand for such programs.

Unlike a temporary rebate of payroll taxes, eliminating the payroll tax will change incentives facing firms and workers. The result will be job creation and increased worker compensation. The permanence of the change raises the effectiveness of that encouragement, again in contrast to a temporary rebate.

But eliminating the payroll tax without reforming the budget and entitlement programs would be irresponsible and would rob the tax cut of much of its kick.

The payroll tax currently generates about $700 billion. We will pay for that reduction with three other changes:

—Eliminating all corporate welfare. Corporate welfare rewards those corporations that excel at lobbying rather than serving their customers. Eliminating it will save $100 billion annually.

—Implementing spending reductions in all departments of 10%, saving over $250 billion. Such cuts in a federal budget heading toward $3 trillion are hardly draconian. They merely return spending to the level of a year or two ago.

—Making small across-the-board increases in the income tax rate, yielding $350 billion. The poorest workers will in fact see a significant improvement in their after-tax income because the elimination of the payroll tax will overwhelm the increase in income taxes. The richest Americans will see a slightly larger increase because their payroll tax contributions are currently capped.

At the same time, I will appoint two bipartisan commissions to reform the budget process itself and the Social Security and Medicare programs. The budget process is out of control. Signaling to the private sector that the public sector will live within its means and avoid the erratic behavior of the past year will go a long way toward rejuvenating the economy. So will reform of Social Security and Medicare.

Social Security and Medicare are not viable in their current form given our demographics. For 70 years we have pretended that they are insurance programs. In fact, they are welfare programs that also help the rich in the name of generating support for the system. It is absurd for wealthy Americans to be part of a retirement and health system when they have the wherewithal to take care of themselves without government help.

The system isn't financially bankrupt—yet. But it is intellectually bankrupt. Why should today's workers pay for today's retirees in the expectation that future workers will do the same for them? Why should a poor worker of today send money to a wealthy retiree? There is a name for such schemes and it is not a pretty one. It would be far better to let those who are capable of taking care of themselves do so, while putting aside money for those unable to take care of themselves.

In short, I propose that Social Security and Medicare become means-tested safety nets for the truly needy, rather than a fake pension and insurance program with a hidden welfare component. The commission I appoint will design a gradual transition over time to such a transparent system, allowing today's workers to plan honestly for the future.

One method of transforming Social Security and Medicare will be to make them means-tested and make the welfare components explicit rather than buried and opaque as they are now.

Ultimately, this will allow for lower tax rates. Those expected lower tax rates will help encourage current spending because consumers will not have to worry about future tax increases.

If we have the courage to implement this plan of fiscal responsibility and a more transparent tax system with improved incentives, it will let the private sector know that the grown-ups are in charge and that the government can be trusted to act responsibly.

This will in turn encourage the risk taking and investment that must take place before our economy can recover. And most importantly, we will set the stage for future prosperity.

Thank you and God bless America.

Russ Roberts is a research fellow at the Hoover Institution, a professor of economics at George Mason University, and the host of a weekly podcast, EconTalk. His latest book is The Price of Everything: A Parable of Possibility and Prosperity.


NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 12:40pm

 phineas wrote:

In most things in life, we value and expouse "balance". When it comes to markets, the wonderful semantics of using the adjective "free" seems to cloud our ability to see that there must be some controls in place — proven all too well by current events.
 

Yes,   and no.  I am a bit worried about the kind of naive hope being bandied around at the moment that controls and government spending are going to right things. It just might be too serious this time for that kind of thing.. Seriously what are Obama's options now? Let things crash? Spend like there's no tomorrow? Shut eyes and hope things will turn out ok?

Let's say, by a stroke of some magic wand, the entire American population becomes fiscally prudent overnight, tightens belts, scales back debt, works two jobs for less money, only takes a minimum of credit and then only when it is certain it can pay it back. Further.. the American public stops buying foreign goods and encourages locally produced products .. a massive fall in the dollar (probably overdue) supports this.. At the same time, the government stops spending money on overseas projects, cuts military spending, invests in schools and local infrastructure but generally tries to balance the budget and restore fiscal health .

If you think this is crazy, look at what happened to NZ in the eighties. This is precisely what we went through. Now, the country is "relatively sound" and has a much wider export base. But now, even with its much freer market, it is still miles away from the standards it used to have pre-crash (at least measured on the OECD) and probably always will be. We lost half our wealth overnight when the dollar was floated. Many many people lost their jobs and businesses folded as protection and govt. subsidies were removed. The public sector suffered a huge drop in revenue.. there were waiting lists for critical operations etc. etc. 

This I'm afraid is what awaits the US . The point is, tightening your belts now might make you fiscally more sound, but it is not going to improve your living standards, no way. The other point is that the US as the world's biggest consumer is going to be sorely missed. We are already suffering from over-production without losing half a billion wealthy consumers. Sure, other countries will take up the excess demand, sooner or later, but there are going to be huge readjustments before we all get that far.

And we haven't even brushed on the effects of a possible power vaccum if the US cuts back its military spending .


Alchemist

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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 12:32pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
You may be right and I'd like to have that sort of faith in the market - that it can allocate resources efficiently (believe me, I trust it more than any kind of command economy!) - but there do seem to be certain dynamics at play in the system, aside from politics and government interference, or even monetary policy.

Left to its own devices, I think the market does tend to create an ever richer minority and a majority that slowly loses real income (winner takes all mentality). However, production also needs willing consumers to fund growth, i.e. we either need more consumers or more spending power per person. But this automatically implies transfers of wealth from the growing rich to the bulk of the population whose real incomes are falling or —- if that doesn't work, we give them credit. Et voila the problem is born.Soon you need more credit to refinance the original wave of credit and before long you've got a monster trying to eat its tail.
 
The free market raises the standards of living of all, it is not a zero sum game, wealth is created.  The percentage of the population living in poverty worldwide continues to drop dramatically thanks to this, as one example.  Interestingly, studies have shown that once subsistence needs have been met, people's satisfaction with their income has more to do with how much they earn relative to others rather than their actual purchasing power.  Given the choice of earning more, but not as much more as everyone else, most people would prefer to instead earn the same but have everyone else earn less.

I agree centralized planning doesn't work and never will.
phineas

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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 12:03pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:


You may be right and I'd like to have that sort of faith in the market - that it can allocate resources efficiently (believe me, I trust it more than any kind of command economy!) - but there do seem to be certain dynamics at play in the system, aside from politics and government interference, or even monetary policy.

Left to its own devices, I think the market does tend to create an ever richer minority and a majority that slowly loses real income (winner takes all mentality). However, production also needs willing consumers to fund growth, i.e. we either need more consumers or more spending power per person. But this automatically implies transfers of wealth from the growing rich to the bulk of the population whose real incomes are falling or —- if that doesn't work, we give them credit. Et voila the problem is born.Soon you need more credit to refinance the original wave of credit and before long you've got a monster trying to eat its tail.

 
In most things in life, we value and espouse "balance". When it comes to markets, the wonderful semantics of using the adjective "free" seems to cloud our ability to see that there must be some controls in place — proven all too well by current events.

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 12:00pm

 Alchemist wrote:

There's no fundamental reason why the world can't have sound economies absent artificially low interest rates - look at most of history.  I think a big problem is that monetary policy is being increasing politicized around the globe, which is just asking for trouble.  There's a reason the US federal reserve bank was set up as a private bank, though these days you would never know it.  Once politicians (of any stripe) gain effective control of the printing presses the results are predicable.

As to Keynesian policies, I think this is the rationalization that got us to where we are today - that business cycles can (and should) be fought with monetary policy.  Instead we end up with a never ending series of bubbles. 

 

You may be right and I'd like to have that sort of faith in the market - that it can allocate resources efficiently (believe me, I trust it more than any kind of command economy!) - but there do seem to be certain dynamics at play in the system, aside from politics and government interference, or even monetary policy.

Left to its own devices, I think the market does tend to create an ever richer minority and a majority that slowly loses real income (winner takes all mentality). However, production also needs willing consumers to fund growth, i.e. we either need more consumers or more spending power per person. But this automatically implies transfers of wealth from the growing rich to the bulk of the population whose real incomes are falling or —- if that doesn't work, we give them credit. Et voila the problem is born.Soon you need more credit to refinance the original wave of credit and before long you've got a monster trying to eat its tail.
Alchemist

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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 11:46am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

.. but also that the rest of the world must either continue to fund it or face recession themselves.. if this era comes to an end it's going to bring down a whole lot of dominos with it.. in fact it probably already is.. much as I hope the Keynesian policies being introduced now will work I doubt very much that they will this time.. simply because fate has a peverse sense of irony.

Germany is another country like China with a huge trade surplus. But if the world so much as shrugs it shoulders, Germany gets all jittery.

I dunno, I see a certain tendency towards a national or local analysis of the problem.. as though people think if US Americans worked hard and money were invested locally, and the trade deficit were eliminated, etc, all would be ok again and we could return to the arcadian days of the fifties.  

While to some extent this might be true for the US this would cripple many other countries.. No, it looks to me that the global economy has a greater addiction to endless credit than it does to endless supplies of natural resources. It's gotta hit the ceiling one day and it kind of looks like that day has come.
 
There's no fundamental reason why the world can't have sound economies absent artificially low interest rates - look at most of history.  I think a big problem is that monetary policy is being increasing politicized around the globe, which is just asking for trouble.  There's a reason the US federal reserve bank was set up as a private bank, though these days you would never know it.  Once politicians (of any stripe) gain effective control of the printing presses the results are predicable.

As to Keynesian policies, I think this is the rationalization that got us to where we are today - that business cycles can (and should) be fought with monetary policy.  Instead we end up with a never ending series of bubbles. 
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 11:12am

 Alchemist wrote:

Certainly the easy money provided for the world's largest consumer by their government's fiscal policies resulted in worldwide growth.  But there is a critical difference - the US is a net debtor nation, while China (for instance) has massive savings.  Yes, the near evaporation of the US consumer will cause a recession in China, but they can fall back on their savings while they reallocate their resources.  The US, on the other hand, is completely dependent on foreign countries to finance their debt.  This situation was allowed to develop because of their unique status as the reserve currency holder and the perception that it is the safest place to invest.  Shiff's claim is that this era is coming to an end.

 
.. but also that the rest of the world must either continue to fund it or face recession themselves.. if this era comes to an end it's going to bring down a whole lot of dominos with it.. in fact it probably already is.. much as I hope the Keynesian policies being introduced now will work I doubt very much that they will this time.. simply because fate has a peverse sense of irony.

Germany is another country like China with a huge trade surplus. But if the world so much as shrugs it shoulders, Germany gets all jittery.

I dunno, I see a certain tendency towards a national or local analysis of the problem.. as though people think if US Americans worked hard and money were invested locally, and the trade deficit were eliminated, etc, all would be ok again and we could return to the arcadian days of the fifties.  

While to some extent this might be true for the US this would cripple many other countries.. No, it looks to me that the global economy has a greater addiction to endless credit than it does to endless supplies of natural resources. It's gotta hit the ceiling one day and it kind of looks like that day has come.
Alchemist

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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 10:55am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:


Well, not his alone, I'm afraid.  and it doesn't even stop with spendthrift US consumers.. it extends right through the entire world economy. Most producing nations were very happy to sell goods and services to US citizens and were quite prepared to fund it. Can you imagine the Chinese economy ever having enjoyed the growth it did without a credit bubble in the US? And the Germans were quite happy to supply the Chinese with the machines to make the products ... and the Brits were happy to sell insurance to the Germans... etc. etc. it goes on and on.

What we are witnessing is endemic system failure. Not merely the evil blossoming of greed, though that no doubt played a part in it.

I personally suspect we are just at the very beginning of major change. We just haven't realized what those changes will be yet.
 
Certainly the easy money provided for the world's largest consumer by their government's fiscal policies resulted in worldwide growth.  But there is a critical difference - the US is a net debtor nation, while China (for instance) has massive savings.  Yes, the near evaporation of the US consumer will cause a recession in China, but they can fall back on their savings while they reallocate their resources.  The US, on the other hand, is completely dependent on foreign countries to finance their debt.  This situation was allowed to develop because of their unique status as the reserve currency holder and the perception that it is the safest place to invest.  Shiff's claim is that this era is coming to an end.
hippiechick

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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 7:25am

 exotraxx wrote:


 
Exo, I think your vision of the US is skewed by what you see in the news. The US is much more than what our government has created. Keep an eye on Mr. Obama; he will restore to our government what is wonderful about our country.

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 5:26am

 samiyam wrote:
Maybe it's time for a Jubilee Year where we have a universal forgiveness of debt and we all start fresh at day one... 

(We start over... try to get it right this time)

 

That ran through my head too for a nano-second. Totally unworkable I guess.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 5:24am

 fidget wrote:

Hit the nail on the head.

{#Think}  

{#Wave} Hi B
 

Morning Good afternoon Mr. Fidget!

I just had a stunning piece of lemon sole for lunch.. yummm!
samiyam

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Location: Moving North


Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 5:03am

Maybe it's time for a Jubilee Year where we have a universal forgiveness of debt and we all start fresh at day one... 

(We start over... try to get it right this time)
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