1) Democracy is only a good thing if it improves the lives of those it has been foisted upon. And Democracy is only a good thing if the foistees want it. Kind of the definition of democracy, so far as I know. *shrug*
2) I personally would be more impressed with our "democratic vision" if we, as a country, were more focused on ensuring equal access to things like education and health care. But that's just me.
interesting and nicely said beanie..however...
1. i would ask, when is democracy and freedom worse than the alternative? in the case of japan, they surely weren't 'ready' for democracy, and many say the Arab world is not 'ready' for it. I find that vaguely racist or at least the 'soft bigotry of low expectation' that many think that democracy is wasted on some is a little perplexing to me. eastern europe was surely not ready for freedom and democracy. and sure they have had problems, but still...
2. i am impressed with our democratic vision, and i accept that human society is not perfect, but we are required to attempt to improve it. this country believes in freedom more than egalitarianism. but we have the power to change our govt. and its focus. in few societies are the poor overfed and watching color tvs as they are here. sure, you shouldn't go bankrupt because you are sick, there is always room for improvement. i agree on that.
Yes, in the context of time. America has been an experiment in Democracy and Freedom unlike anything ever before seen in the history of civilization. It is still a work in progress which many currently see as a sputtering mess.
The US has constantly sought out to improve itself and has for the most part moved away from the concept that any particular race or religion is more important than another. It is what sets us apart from most of the rest of the world, including Europe and especially the Middle East and the Far East. While our history has periods of shame and in the case of the Native American, a genocide, that is long in our past and not even remotely or recently a part of us. How anyone can even rationally attempt to define us in that context is beyond me.
If someone wants to judge this country and its policies in regards to the world in general, it would be grossly unfair and unrealistic to go back past WW I. Comparison of the US to the rest of the world since WW I would be a more fair and equitable approach. In the past 90 years (and I think that is a period of time long enough to arrive at conclusions) the US has shown the rest of the world how to move ahead and correct injustices of the past and take out tyrants and dictators and political philosophies that seek to enslave mankind as opposed to enlighten it. No other country has done so much for the rest of the world and I am insulted by those that are trying to appologize for what we have done and been the past 90 years. No one has done a better job, period end of story. While we make mistakes, we have little to appologize for as we keep trying to get it right and make improvements.
If we cease to try to improve and cease the open political debates of how to better do it, then our detractors might have some legitimate complaints. But that is not the case.
I agree 100% with that statement and if I ever hear of someone trying to do that I will argue the same point. The only point I was making is that there is a similarity between the early American governments attitude and treatment of Native Americans and the Nazis attitude and treatment of the Jews during their reign and this part of our past is not as well known by the general public as the Holocaust is to the world. I mean a 2 year old knows that Nazis are evil, but it is rare that your average American knows the extent of the tragedy that was the Native American experience and the part our own Government played in it. Remember, Wounded Knee took place only 40 years before the Nazis took power. Just something to think about.
very well said... no country in the history of humanity has 'conquered' a country and paid to rebuild the improved and democratic version thereof.
A couple of gentle counterpoints:
1) Democracy is only a good thing if it improves the lives of those it has been foisted upon. And Democracy is only a good thing if the foistees want it. Kind of the definition of democracy, so far as I know. *shrug*
2) I personally would be more impressed with our "democratic vision" if we, as a country, were more focused on ensuring equal access to things like education and health care. But that's just me.
Yes, in the context of time. America has been an experiment in Democracy and Freedom unlike anything ever before seen in the history of civilization. It is still a work in progress which many currently see as a sputtering mess. ......................... If we cease to try to improve and cease the open political debates of how to better do it, then our detractors might have some legitimate complaints. But that is not the case.
very well said... no country in the history of humanity has 'conquered' a country and paid to rebuild the improved and democratic version thereof.
fair comment..BUT! you cannot compare germany in the 20th C with USA in the 18th. broken treaties and repatriation, slaughters and war and retribution are all the legacy and all wrong. not to mention slavery. but we don't say modern mexicans are barbarians because they sacrificed thousands of people to their ancient gods hundreds of years ago, paradoxically til the europeans came and conquered them...... we do however say that the nazis were monsters IN THE CULTURAL CONTEXT OF THE TIME!!!
THE COMPARISON ALMOST EXCUSES THE MODERN ATROCITIES.
genocide took place in europe in my parents lifetime!!
Yes, in the context of time. America has been an experiment in Democracy and Freedom unlike anything ever before seen in the history of civilization. It is still a work in progress which many currently see as a sputtering mess.
The US has constantly sought out to improve itself and has for the most part moved away from the concept that any particular race or religion is more important than another. It is what sets us apart from most of the rest of the world, including Europe and especially the Middle East and the Far East. While our history has periods of shame and in the case of the Native American, a genocide, that is long in our past and not even remotely or recently a part of us. How anyone can even rationally attempt to define us in that context is beyond me.
If someone wants to judge this country and its policies in regards to the world in general, it would be grossly unfair and unrealistic to go back past WW I. Comparison of the US to the rest of the world since WW I would be a more fair and equitable approach. In the past 90 years (and I think that is a period of time long enough to arrive at conclusions) the US has shown the rest of the world how to move ahead and correct injustices of the past and take out tyrants and dictators and political philosophies that seek to enslave mankind as opposed to enlighten it. No other country has done so much for the rest of the world and I am insulted by those that are trying to appologize for what we have done and been the past 90 years. No one has done a better job, period end of story. While we make mistakes, we have little to appologize for as we keep trying to get it right and make improvements.
If we cease to try to improve and cease the open political debates of how to better do it, then our detractors might have some legitimate complaints. But that is not the case.
I am not excusing the modern atrocities or defending Hitler in any manner, quite the contrary. I think that Hitler and the Nazis were absolute monsters, what I AM saying is that that the Europeans and then the Americans from the time they landed on this continent until the early part of the 20th century were almost as bad! So, I assure you I am not making excuses for the Nazis, just trying to point out that early American government was almost as evil in their persecution of what both some early American settlers and Presidents (namely Jefferson and Jackson) considered savages, just as the Nazis considered Jews subhuman. I think you mistake me for a right winger or something, nothing could be further from the truth. I am standing up for the persecuted Native Americans, NOT excusing the horrors of the holocaust. The Nazis actions of this century were disgraceful and disgusting, but so were ours.
one more try..
you cannot judge old cultures by modern standards. however bad the European settlers were to the Native Americans, you cannot compare it to modern cultures, ie.. the Nazis etc. you can compare modern cultures to each other...modern Belgium to modern Sudan... and ancient cultures to its contemporaries....medieval Europe to medieval China..
but you get into trouble when you compare for example ancient Mexico to modern Europe , and say, hey those Aztecs were Monsters...those Nazis aren't looking so bad.... its a flawed comparison. you are judging primitive cultures by modern standards. similarly to say the European colonists were just as bad as the Nazis is not a proper comparison.
edit: i understand what you are saying, that all cultures at some time do bad things, but in the case of Nazi Germany, it was a modern enlightened country. they knew what they were doing...like Pol Pot et al....its so so much worse, that the comparison with the European settlement of the Americas has the affect of diminishing the horror of Germany in the 20th C.
fair comment..BUT! you cannot compare germany in the 20th C with USA in the 18th. broken treaties and repatriation, slaughters and war and retribution are all the legacy and all wrong. not to mention slavery. but we don't say modern mexicans are barbarians because they sacrificed thousands of people to their ancient gods hundreds of years ago, paradoxically til the europeans came and conquered them...... we do however say that the nazis were monsters IN THE CULTURAL CONTEXT OF THE TIME!!!
THE COMPARISON ALMOST EXCUSES THE MODERN ATROCITIES.
genocide took place in europe in my parents lifetime!!
I am not excusing the modern atrocities or defending Hitler in any manner, quite the contrary. I think that Hitler and the Nazis were absolute monsters, what I AM saying is that that the Europeans and then the Americans from the time they landed on this continent until the early part of the 20th century were almost as bad! So, I assure you I am not making excuses for the Nazis, just trying to point out that early American government was almost as evil in their persecution of what both some early American settlers and Presidents (namely Jefferson and Jackson) considered savages, just as the Nazis considered Jews subhuman. I think you mistake me for a right winger or something, nothing could be further from the truth. I am standing up for the persecuted Native Americans, NOT excusing the horrors of the holocaust. The Nazis actions of this century were disgraceful and disgusting, but so were ours.
Though I hardly align myself with exo and really don't get or even care about this whole disneylander stuff, it must be noted that HItler greatly admired the American model of genocide and domination of Native and African Americans as an example of how it should be done. Again, I have nothing to do with exo and do not even understand what the heck he is talking about, but we should also be aware of the crimes that took place to create America as it is today and be ever respectful and compassionate towards Native Americans in particular.
fair comment..BUT! you cannot compare germany in the 20th C with USA in the 18th. broken treaties and repatriation, slaughters and war and retribution are all the legacy and all wrong. not to mention slavery. but we don't say modern mexicans are barbarians because they sacrificed thousands of people to their ancient gods hundreds of years ago, paradoxically til the europeans came and conquered them...... we do however say that the nazis were monsters IN THE CULTURAL CONTEXT OF THE TIME!!!
THE COMPARISON ALMOST EXCUSES THE MODERN ATROCITIES.
genocide took place in europe in my parents lifetime!!
Speaking of holocausts & final solutions & such like, let us not forget the redskins who I believe today make up about 0.7% of the US population. Of course I stand to be corrected on that figure.
Though I hardly align myself with exo and really don't get or even care about this whole disneylander stuff, it must be noted that HItler greatly admired the American model of genocide and domination of Native and African Americans as an example of how it should be done. Again, I have nothing to do with exo and do not even understand what the heck he is talking about, but we should also be aware of the crimes that took place to create America as it is today and be ever respectful and compassionate towards Native Americans in particular.
Herr Kurtster Edit: I also strongly urge you and everyone else to find and watch a wonderful movie, The Mouse That Roared .
Wonderfully written, Kurt! I'm just afraid this is going to be so over our little buddy's head, he will only be able to respond in one of his three line, 14pt bold Radebrechen Englisch slogans which will only prove that he has missed the point of your communication entirely .
This is my last serious attempt at communication with you.
I have just been to your blog site and looked around and read quite a bit. All that I saw there is more of the same cut and paste stuff you do here.
What I also saw in your choice of articles and essays you chose to cut and paste was an excessive use of the word "WE" as if you are one of us. The way you present these articles makes it seem sometimes as if you are the author, rather than have originated else where. You certainly do identify with the points of view you present, that is obvious.
That you choose to cite articles and essays written in the first party with "I" and "we" overused as opposed to a more objective third party point of view is both revealing and confusing at the same time.
Someone who has never engaged you before and stumbles onto your blog might actually think that you are an American yourself. Is that the image you are trying to project ? That of a disenfrancised American or an American expatriate who has been hurt beyond description ? How did America or an American hurt you so bad that you go to these great lengths of deception to promote your own agenda. Or is it someone else's which would make you their puppet ?
So what is your motivation for dispensing all the propoganda spewing forth from your keyboard ? Which among us is the naive ? Your inability to express your own original thought would seem to direct the answer to that question as you are the naive one, especially if you believe that the message you insist on jamming down our throats has already been missed by ourselves here in Disneyland as you love to call it.
You apparently miss the point that a greater majority of US Americans are coming to identify themselves as independent rather than as a member of the 2 political parties that are screwing this country and its citizens in concert, taking turns in doing so, each blaming the other just to make it look good. We are not naive to what is going on here. We understand that Democracy is a painfully slow process that requires patience and optimism in order for it work properly and succeed. Democracy usually prevents the mob mentalities such as Facism from taking over as it did in your country. Twice we had to save the world from your country. We are not perfect but the world is a much better place in the long run because of the US and the sacrifices this country has made in both blood and treasure to save the world from itself in the 20th Century. To the victor goes the spoils. We didn't take that much when you look back.
We rebuilt Europe and Japan from our own pockets and forgave the debt to boot. We were under no obligation to do so because we were not the instigators. We did it to be helpful and nice. When it comes to humanitarian aid around the world, especially after a natural disaster, Disneyland is second to none with its out pouring of money and material to the suffering. When a disaster hits us, no one comes to our aid, rather you (the world) sit back and criticise our own efforts to clean up, offering no help in the wake of the disaster.
So remember Little Buddy, if it wasn't for us, the rest of the world would have been speaking German for quite some time now. Oh wait, I forget that you already do. Is that what makes you so mad ?
Respectfully,
Herr Kurtster Edit: I also strongly urge you and everyone else to find and watch a wonderful movie, The Mouse That Roared .
Location: Auckland, New Zealand (former Boston native and Atlanta transplant) Gender:
Posted:
May 15, 2009 - 11:31am
nuggler wrote:
Speaking of holocausts & final solutions & such like, let us not forget the redskins who I believe today make up about 0.7% of the US population. Of course I stand to be corrected on that figure.
edit: That's really cute. I would've never thought that nuggsy and exo could have possibly had their views articulated by a video from a 3rd rate band.
Again, I have nothing to do with exo and do not even understand what the heck he is talking about, but we should also be aware of the crimes that took place to create America as it is today and be ever respectful and compassionate towards Native Americans in particular. 
?
