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Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 7, 2020 - 12:33pm

steeler wrote:
I do not know the motivation of the NY AG. Nor do I know the specifics of N.Y. laws regarding nonprofits.

I do know that a nonprofit can abuse its nonprofit status and that excessive expenditures and salaries can be evidence of that.

Sounds like a criminal matter. She should file charges—against the individuals she thinks violated the law.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Aug 7, 2020 - 12:29pm



 Lazy8 wrote:
steeler wrote:
Taxpayers. A government that otherwise might be owed taxes.

That would normally be in the jurisdiction of the IRS or state tax agency, not the AG, but that won't get the NYAG any headlines.
 

I do not know the motivation of the NY AG. Nor do I know the specifics of N.Y. laws regarding nonprofits.

I do know that a nonprofit can abuse its nonprofit status and that excessive expenditures and salaries can be evidence of that.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 7, 2020 - 12:19pm

steeler wrote:
Taxpayers. A government that otherwise might be owed taxes.

That would normally be in the jurisdiction of the IRS or state tax agency, not the AG, but that won't get the NYAG any headlines.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Aug 7, 2020 - 12:12pm



 Lazy8 wrote:
steeler wrote:
Abuse of nonprofit status is at issue. That impacts more than donors to and members of the NRA.

Like who?

Besides the NRA's political enemies, that is.
 
Taxpayers. A government that otherwise might be owed taxes. 

sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 7, 2020 - 8:53am

 Lazy8 wrote:
sirdroseph wrote:
NRA has outlived its usefulness anyway, due to a bunch of unforeseen circumstances gun control is no longer an issue.   Kinda ironic, they may be imploding just as they have won the war.  Black people are strapping AKs in the street yo, that's a wrap.   You gonna try to take them away from them or should we get the police to?  Time to move on.  Probably should go ahead and delete the gun control thread.

The NRA's usefulness isn't just about politics.

My local shooting range is run by an NRA affiliate club. That means they derive their nonprofit status from affiliation and get their insurance thru NRA. If NRA is dissolved they are on their own for that, as are an awful lot of facilities. This could put a lot of them out of business.

NRA sanctions and hosts a lot of shooting competitions and trains a lot of shooters, instructors, range safety officers, gunsmiths, and event organizers. It has some competition for the politics part (Gun Owners of America, 2nd Amendment Foundation, and a few others) but there really isn't anybody else to take over the other things they do.
 
{#Cheers}
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 7, 2020 - 8:49am

sirdroseph wrote:
NRA has outlived its usefulness anyway, due to a bunch of unforeseen circumstances gun control is no longer an issue.   Kinda ironic, they may be imploding just as they have won the war.  Black people are strapping AKs in the street yo, that's a wrap.   You gonna try to take them away from them or should we get the police to?  Time to move on.  Probably should go ahead and delete the gun control thread.

The NRA's usefulness isn't just about politics.

My local shooting range is run by an NRA affiliate club. That means they derive their nonprofit status from affiliation and get their insurance thru NRA. If NRA is dissolved they are on their own for that, as are an awful lot of facilities. This could put a lot of them out of business.

NRA sanctions and hosts a lot of shooting competitions and trains a lot of shooters, instructors, range safety officers, gunsmiths, and event organizers. It has some competition for the politics part (Gun Owners of America, 2nd Amendment Foundation, and a few others) but there really isn't anybody else to take over the other things they do.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 7, 2020 - 8:40am

steeler wrote:
Abuse of nonprofit status is at issue. That impacts more than donors to and members of the NRA.

Like who?

Besides the NRA's political enemies, that is.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 7, 2020 - 8:38am

kcar wrote:
For someone who apparently hasn't even bothered to read the news articles and the AG's press release, you sure do have a lot to say.

Again, if you'd read the news about the NRA, you'd realize the organization is in considerable financial as well as legal trouble.

If James's case had no merit, she'd be shredded in court and her reputation destroyed. The state's investigation into the NRA has been going on for eighteen months. New York AG's office has extensive evidence of corruption, malfeasance as well as failure to carry out proper board governance duties and accurate annual accounting.

I invite you to read more and speculate less.

You need to distinguish between reading an article and believing every word of it uncritically. The NYAG claiming that 'the four top executives "have basically destroyed all the assets of the NRA..."' is particularly laughable. Really, all of them? Including massive facilities like the Whittington Center and the headquarters in Fairfax, the revenue streams from training and event sanctioning, its millions of dues-paying members, all gone? Please. The NRA has massively deep pockets, something its executives have been using to line their own, but the amounts they have been accused of misappropriating don't come close to putting the organization out of business.

The latest Form 990 I could find for NRA is from 2018. That year they posted a loss of $2.7M on revenue of $352.5M. This is not "considerable financial trouble", that's a deficit of .8%. I'm sure the NYAG would like NRA to be in considerable financial trouble, and the legal costs of fighting for its life could do that, but that would be the result of this lawsuit, not mismanagement within NRA—egregious as that is.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Aug 7, 2020 - 7:13am



 Lazy8 wrote:
haresfur wrote:
I look at it as performing her regulatory responsibility to keep a supposedly charitable organization from ripping off your money.

If the NYAG sees fraud going on within the organization she (my abject apologies for misgendering the NYAG) could file charges against those perpetrating the fraud. She hasn't.

The donors and members of NRA donated to and joined because the NRA is an advocate for issues they support. If she's so terribly concerned about them and their money being wasted she could go after the perpetrators and leave the organization intact to conduct the activities the members and donors paid for.

Imagine the Alabama AG behaving similarly toward, say, the Southern Poverty Law Center—a left-leaning nonprofit headquartered in Montgomery, but with offshore accounts in the Cayman Islands. It has scandals every bit as juicy as NRA's. That might look just a teensy bit political, wouldn't it?

Why doesn't this?
 
Abuse of nonprofit status is at issue. That impacts more than donors to and members of the NRA. 

sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 7, 2020 - 2:04am



 kcar wrote:


 Lazy8 wrote:
R_P wrote:
An ironic defense (used by the NRA, as well as various Trump cronies caught lining their pockets/self-dealing their business interests) considering the NRA's well-documented political activities and clout.

That's precisely my point: they are very good at mobilizing their membership to action, action the NY political establishment has long been hostile to. And look, an election coming up!

Even if the state doesn't prevail in court they have managed to (at very least) distract them from those activities. All because the NY Attorney General cares so very, very deeply about NRA members.
 

For someone who apparently hasn't even bothered to read the news articles and the AG's press release, you sure do have a lot to say.

Again, if you'd read the news about the NRA, you'd realize the organization is in considerable financial as well as legal trouble.

If James's case had no merit, she'd be shredded in court and her reputation destroyed. The state's investigation into the NRA has been going on for eighteen months. New York AG's office has extensive evidence of corruption, malfeasance as well as failure to carry out proper board governance duties and accurate annual accounting.

I invite you to read more and speculate less.
 
NRA has outlived its usefulness anyway, due to a bunch of unforeseen circumstances gun control is no longer an issue.   Kinda ironic, they may be imploding just as they have won the war.  Black people are strapping AKs in the street yo, that's a wrap.   You gonna try to take them away from them or should we get the police to?  Time to move on.  Probably should go ahead and delete the gun control thread.

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Aug 6, 2020 - 11:06pm



 Lazy8 wrote:
R_P wrote:
An ironic defense (used by the NRA, as well as various Trump cronies caught lining their pockets/self-dealing their business interests) considering the NRA's well-documented political activities and clout.

That's precisely my point: they are very good at mobilizing their membership to action, action the NY political establishment has long been hostile to. And look, an election coming up!

Even if the state doesn't prevail in court they have managed to (at very least) distract them from those activities. All because the NY Attorney General cares so very, very deeply about NRA members.
 

For someone who apparently hasn't even bothered to read the news articles and the AG's press release, you sure do have a lot to say.

Again, if you'd read the news about the NRA, you'd realize the organization is in considerable financial as well as legal trouble.

If James's case had no merit, she'd be shredded in court and her reputation destroyed. The state's investigation into the NRA has been going on for eighteen months. New York AG's office has extensive evidence of corruption, malfeasance as well as failure to carry out proper board governance duties and accurate annual accounting.

I invite you to read more and speculate less.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Aug 6, 2020 - 11:03pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
R_P wrote:
An ironic defense (used by the NRA, as well as various Trump cronies caught lining their pockets/self-dealing their business interests) considering the NRA's well-documented political activities and clout.

That's precisely my point: they are very good at mobilizing their membership to action, action the NY political establishment has long been hostile to. And look, an election coming up!

Even if the state doesn't prevail in court they have managed to (at very least) distract them from those activities. All because the NY Attorney General cares so very, very deeply about NRA members.
 
It's all politics and political. And everybody gets involved on behalf of their favorite/hated causes. Predictably so.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 6, 2020 - 10:35pm

R_P wrote:
An ironic defense (used by the NRA, as well as various Trump cronies caught lining their pockets/self-dealing their business interests) considering the NRA's well-documented political activities and clout.

That's precisely my point: they are very good at mobilizing their membership to action, action the NY political establishment has long been hostile to. And look, an election coming up!

Even if the state doesn't prevail in court they have managed to (at very least) distract them from those activities. All because the NY Attorney General cares so very, very deeply about NRA members.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Aug 6, 2020 - 7:05pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
That might look just a teensy bit political, wouldn't it?
 
An ironic defense (used by the NRA, as well as various Trump cronies caught lining their pockets/self-dealing their business interests) considering the NRA's well-documented political activities and clout.
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Aug 6, 2020 - 6:33pm



 Lazy8 wrote:
haresfur wrote:
I look at it as performing her regulatory responsibility to keep a supposedly charitable organization from ripping off your money.

If the NYAG sees fraud going on within the organization she (my abject apologies for misgendering the NYAG) could file charges against those perpetrating the fraud. She hasn't.

The donors and members of NRA donated to and joined because the NRA is an advocate for issues they support. If she's so terribly concerned about them and their money being wasted she could go after the perpetrators and leave the organization intact to conduct the activities the members and donors paid for.

Imagine the Alabama AG behaving similarly toward, say, the Southern Poverty Law Center—a left-leaning nonprofit headquartered in Montgomery, but with offshore accounts in the Cayman Islands. It has scandals every bit as juicy as NRA's. That might look just a teensy bit political, wouldn't it?

Why doesn't this?
 
From what I can tell the AG's office believes that the NRA's corruption and malfeasance are so systemic, longstanding and effective against internal reform efforts that the non-profit cannot come into compliance with the law. In the WaPo excerpt I've provided, AG James states that the four top executives "have basically destroyed all the assets of the NRA..."



From the NPR article: 



"The NRA's influence has been so powerful that the organization went unchecked for decades while top executives funneled millions into their own pockets," James said in a statement. "The NRA is fraught with fraud and abuse, which is why, today, we seek to dissolve the NRA, because no organization is above the law."

James' complaint names the National Rifle Association as a whole but also names four current and former NRA executives: Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre, general counsel John Frazer, former Chief Financial Officer Woody Phillips and former chief of staff Joshua Powell.

It lists dozens of examples of alleged financial malfeasance, including the use of NRA funds for vacations, private jets and expensive meals. In a statement, James' office said that the charitable organization's executives "instituted a culture of self-dealing, mismanagement and negligent oversight" that contributed to "the waste and loss of millions in assets."

The lawsuit seeks to dissolve the NRA in its entirety and asks the court to order LaPierre and other current and former executives to pay back unlawful profits. It also seeks to remove LaPierre and Frazer from the organization's leadership and prevent the four named individuals from ever serving again on the board of a charity in New York.


From AG's press release:



Since 1871, the NRA has operated as a New York-registered 501(c)(4) not-for-profit, charitable corporation. Under state law not-for-profit, charitable corporations are required to register and file annual financial reports with the Charities Bureau in the Office of the Attorney General (OAG). The assets are required to be used in a way that serves the interests of NRA membership and that advance the organization’s charitable mission. However, as today’s complaint lays out, the NRA is alleged to have fostered a culture of noncompliance and disregard for internal controls that led to the waste and loss of millions in assets and contributed to the NRA reaching its current deteriorated financial state. The NRA’s internal policies were repeatedly not followed and were even blatantly ignored by senior leaders. Furthermore, the NRA board’s audit committee was negligent in its duty to ensure appropriate, competent, and judicious stewardship of assets by NRA leadership. Specifically, the committee failed to assure standard fiscal controls, failed to respond adequately to whistleblowers, affirmatively took steps to conceal the nature and scope of whistleblower concerns from external auditors, and failed to review potential conflicts of interest for employees.


NRA’s Culture of Self-Dealing, Mismanagement, and Negligence


The lawsuit alleges that the four men instituted a culture of self-dealing, mismanagement, and negligent oversight at the NRA that was illegal, oppressive, and fraudulent. They overrode and evaded internal controls to allow themselves, their families, favored board members, employees, and vendors to benefit through reimbursed expenses, related party transactions, excess compensation, side deals, and waste of charitable assets without regard to the NRA’s best interests.

When board members challenged LaPierre and others over their financial governance and leadership of the NRA, LaPierre retaliated and turned the board against those who attempted to challenge the illegal behavior.

The complaint lays out numerous other instances in which LaPierre, Phillips, Powell, Frazer, and other executives and board members at the NRA abused their power and illegally diverted or facilitated the diversion of tens of millions of dollars from the NRA. These funds were in addition to millions of dollars the four individual defendants were already receiving in grossly excessive salaries and bonuses that were not in line with the best practices and prudent standards for evaluating and determining compensation.



From the Washington Post: 



Meanwhile, D.C. Attorney General Karl A. Racine announced Thursday that his office filed a separate lawsuit against the NRA Foundation, which is based in Washington. Racine accused the organization of being a puppet of the NRA, despite legal requirements that it independently pursue charitable purposes. Instead, Racine said his office found, the foundation repeatedly lent the NRA money to address its rising deficits.

James said at a news conference Thursday that she is seeking to dissolve the NRA because of the brazenness of the group’s violations of law.

“The corruption was so broad, and because they have basically destroyed all the assets of the NRA,” she said. “Enough was enough. . . . No one is above the law, not even the NRA.”

Her office cited as a precedent its previous action against the Trump Foundation, which led Trump to shut down the charity in 2018 amid allegations he used it for his personal benefit.

The New York lawsuit against the NRA paints a picture of widespread wrongdoing at the influential gun rights group, and a freewheeling atmosphere in which top officials repeatedly took advantage of their positions for their personal benefit.

In one new revelation, the attorney general said her investigation uncovered that LaPierre recently arranged a post-employment contract for himself with the NRA worth $17 million. He never sought board approval for the deal, the suit claims.

The lawsuit also claims LaPierre failed to report large sums of personal income to the IRS. James’s office said it found that the NRA chief funneled personal expenses through an outside public relations firm, allowing him to avoid reporting hundreds of thousands of dollars of personal income.

James said Thursday that she was referring those findings to the IRS. She also said that if her office uncovers criminal activity, it will be referred to the Manhattan District Attorney’s Office.


haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 6, 2020 - 5:52pm



 Lazy8 wrote:
haresfur wrote:
I look at it as performing her regulatory responsibility to keep a supposedly charitable organization from ripping off your money.

If the NYAG sees fraud going on within the organization she (my abject apologies for misgendering the NYAG) could file charges against those perpetrating the fraud. She hasn't.

The donors and members of NRA donated to and joined because the NRA is an advocate for issues they support. If she's so terribly concerned about them and their money being wasted she could go after the perpetrators and leave the organization intact to conduct the activities the members and donors paid for.

Imagine the Alabama AG behaving similarly toward, say, the Southern Poverty Law Center—a left-leaning nonprofit headquartered in Montgomery, but with offshore accounts in the Cayman Islands. It has scandals every bit as juicy as NRA's. That might look just a teensy bit political, wouldn't it?

Why doesn't this?
 
I suppose it comes down to the details of the law, but I'm willing to bet the AG would be more than happy to prosecute them for fraud. Doesn't mean an organisation breaking civil laws should get off.

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 6, 2020 - 5:09pm

haresfur wrote:
I look at it as performing her regulatory responsibility to keep a supposedly charitable organization from ripping off your money.

If the NYAG sees fraud going on within the organization she (my abject apologies for misgendering the NYAG) could file charges against those perpetrating the fraud. She hasn't.

The donors and members of NRA donated to and joined because the NRA is an advocate for issues they support. If she's so terribly concerned about them and their money being wasted she could go after the perpetrators and leave the organization intact to conduct the activities the members and donors paid for.

Imagine the Alabama AG behaving similarly toward, say, the Southern Poverty Law Center—a left-leaning nonprofit headquartered in Montgomery, but with offshore accounts in the Cayman Islands. It has scandals every bit as juicy as NRA's. That might look just a teensy bit political, wouldn't it?

Why doesn't this?
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Aug 6, 2020 - 4:30pm



 haresfur wrote:


I look at it as performing her regulatory responsibility to keep a supposedly charitable organization from ripping off your money.

 
ayup

haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 6, 2020 - 3:48pm



 Lazy8 wrote:
Red_Dragon wrote:

Funny, he moved to destroy a political opponent (implicitly to protect its donors and members) but with all that evidence of wrongdoing hasn't filed a single criminal charge.

It's almost like he just wants to silence dissent.
 
I look at it as performing her regulatory responsibility to keep a supposedly charitable organization from ripping off your money.

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Aug 6, 2020 - 11:58am



 Lazy8 wrote:
Red_Dragon wrote:

Funny, he moved to destroy a political opponent (implicitly to protect its donors and members) but with all that evidence of wrongdoing hasn't filed a single criminal charge.

It's almost like he just wants to silence dissent.
 

If the "he" in your post is meant to refer to the New York Attorney General, you should know that her name is Letitia James. As the article you linked to states early on. 
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