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Southern_Boy

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Location: On my way to the beach
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 22, 2010 - 5:45am

This is scary!
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
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Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 8:17pm

 arighter2 wrote:
I'm in over my head in this discussion, I'll freely admit, but my understanding is the collapse of the US housing bubble was the driving force in the downturn. I seriously hope something is done to prevent a recurrence of the proliferation of bad paper, but I have my doubts. When the President appoints a tax cheat to run Treasury, dealing with corruption likely isn't on the front burner.

 
I would bet the rent, mortage and farm on that being the case.

musik_knut

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Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 7:33pm

 romeotuma wrote:

I am relieved to say that I am in support of the Supreme Court decision that restrictions on corporate spending on federal campaigns violated the First Amendment... I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU, and they had an amicus curiae position on the case, so I am with the ACLU position, which is—

SUMMARY OF ARGUMENT
The broad prohibition on "electioneering communications" set forth in § 203 of the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 violates the First Amendment, and the limiting construction adopted by this Court in WRTL is insufficient to save it. Accordingly, the Court should strike down § 203 as facially unconstitutional and overrule that portion of McConnell that holds otherwise.

This brief addresses only that question. It does not address the additional question raised by this Court's reargument order: namely, whether Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce, 494 U.S. 652 (1990), should be overruled. However, if Austin is overruled and the ban on express advocacy by corporations and unions is struck down, then the ban on "electioneering communications" in § 203 would necessarily fall as a consequence. Even if Austin is not overruled, § 203 is unconstitutional precisely because it extends beyond the express advocacy at issue in Austin.

The history of the McConnell litigation, as well as campaign finance litigation before and after McConnell, demonstrates that there is no precise or predictable way to determine whether or not political speech is the "functional equivalent" of express advocacy. The decision in WRTL correctly recognized that the BCRA's prophylactic ban on "electioneering communications" threatened speech that lies at the heart of the First Amendment, including genuine issue ads by nonpartisan organizations like the ACLU.

But the reformulated ban crafted by this Court in WRTL continues to threaten core First Amendment speech. Its reliance on the hypothetical response of a reasonable listener still leaves speakers guessing about what speech is lawful and what speech is not. That uncertainty invites arbitrary and discriminatory enforcement. It will also lead many speakers to self-censor rather than risk sanctions or undertake the expense of suing the FEC prior to speaking, especially since most suits will not be resolved until long after the speech is timely and relevant. In short, § 203 was a poorly conceived effort to restrict political speech and should be struck down.

Amicus brief of ACLU...

 

 

 

 



 
yea, what he said...thanks for the clarification...*and I thought genetic engineering was mind bending...*
musik_knut

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Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 7:18pm

 arighter2 wrote:
I'm in over my head in this discussion, I'll freely admit, but my understanding is the collapse of the US housing bubble was the driving force in the downturn. I seriously hope something is done to prevent a recurrence of the proliferation of bad paper, but I have my doubts. When the President appoints a tax cheat to run Treasury, dealing with corruption likely isn't on the front burner.

 

that Sec. Treasury Geithner, in the real world, would be imprisoned for blatant tax evasion, is helping formulate fiscal policy, has nothing to do with his total lack of personal integrity and more to do with his lack of solid credentials...he was President of The NY Fed and must have turned numerous blind eyes while the financial structures were cracking all around him...the housing bubble which burst while Democrats had oversight, the runaway spending by Mr. Bush and his fellow Republicans, all that and then some, leads us to where we are...and now Mr. Obama's policies are only compounding problems...
arighter2

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Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 7:10pm

 musik_knut wrote:


there are so, so, so many factors that led us to our current economic condition...vision might be one...but the downturn was global, so that precludes exclusivity to something US corps or other entities or the previous administration did that leads to this point in time.

  I'm in over my head in this discussion, I'll freely admit, but my understanding is the collapse of the US housing bubble was the driving force in the downturn. I seriously hope something is done to prevent a recurrence of the proliferation of bad paper, but I have my doubts. When the President appoints a tax cheat to run Treasury, dealing with corruption likely isn't on the front burner.


jadewahoo

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Location: Puerto Viejo, Costa Rica
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 6:58pm

"It is the law and so, though we may disagree with it, we must abide the law."

It is precisely that line of thinking that allowed the the wholesale slaughter of Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals by the Third Reich. It is precisely that weak and disingenuous lack of will that permitted the denial of civil, not to mention human, rights to the free descendants of slaves in this country. Those who hold that stance, as they seek to cover their ass, is what led to Pinochet's pogrom of the Disappeared in Chile. As a populace sits in their individual and collective easy chairs saying "it is the law, I will abide it though I disagree with it" is the silence that enables tyranny.
musik_knut

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Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 6:58pm

 arighter2 wrote:

Oh, I'm not against commerce. In fact, I see the present economic malaise, including ,as a failure of vision within the commercial sector.
 

there are so, so, so many factors that led us to our current economic condition...vision might be one...but the downturn was global, so that precludes exclusivity to something US corps or other entities or the previous administration did that leads to this point in time.
arighter2

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Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 6:55pm

 musik_knut wrote:


on the other hand, corporations provide a lot of paychecks to workers and families...they do serve a large purpose.

 
Oh, I'm not against commerce. In fact, I see the present economic malaise, including unemployment,as a failure of vision within the commercial sector.

musik_knut

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Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 6:55pm

 arighter2 wrote:

...but is it a sustainable reality?
 

so far, yes. but who can see far enough to say no? that is, if no ever happens.
arighter2

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Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 6:53pm

 musik_knut wrote:


by the Grace of God, I too am not a lawyer, but elections in the US have been purchased for years...money is the mother's milk of politics...and they all suckle from the same giving teats...unions for almost exclusively Democrats, corps for almost exclusively Republicans, although many corps will whore themselves to whichever party they think might win so as to curry favor. it sucks, but it is reality.

 
...but is it a sustainable reality?

musik_knut

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Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 6:53pm

 arighter2 wrote:
Yes, the question of precedence is a hindrance in this case. I'm making a huge leap, but the massive failure of the corporate system in 2008 is indicative of  corporate influence undermining both commerce and by extension the welfare of the people.

 

on the other hand, corporations provide a lot of paychecks to workers and families...they do serve a large purpose.
arighter2

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Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 6:52pm

 musik_knut wrote:


but that is now how SCOTUS has historically viewed the question...I have great concerns but precedence is a heavy factor unless there is overwhelming reason to set it aside...for example: Plessy v. Ferguson was, fortunately and belatedely, ended with Brown.

  Yes, the question of precedence is a hindrance in this case. I'm making a huge leap, but the massive failure of the corporate system in 2008 is indicative of  corporate influence undermining both commerce and by extension the welfare of the people.


musik_knut

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Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 6:47pm

 arighter2 wrote:

Well, I'm not a lawyer, so my ruling guide is justice, not the law. I would vote against the corporations as I believe the freedom to basically buy elections is a perversion of the Republic.
 

by the Grace of God, I too am not a lawyer, but elections in the US have been purchased for years...money is the mother's milk of politics...and they all suckle from the same giving teats...unions for almost exclusively Democrats, corps for almost exclusively Republicans, although many corps will whore themselves to whichever party they think might win so as to curry favor. it sucks, but it is reality.
hippie

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Location: In the studio
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 6:46pm

 hönx wrote:

As you don't know what Democracy means, you won't be able to understand Fascism.

So let me give you a hint:  Fascism starts when people begin turning into monsters.

For further detailed information you should ask your spiritual brother, the scientist, or better your local hairdresser.



 

That's weapons grade bat shit crazy right there. {#Yes}


{#Cowboy}
musik_knut

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 6:44pm

 arighter2 wrote:
I'm with Slabby. Free Speech is for people, not for corporations.
 

but that is now how SCOTUS has historically viewed the question...I have great concerns but precedence is a heavy factor unless there is overwhelming reason to set it aside...for example: Plessy v. Ferguson was, fortunately and belatedly, ended with Brown.


arighter2

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Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 6:44pm

 musik_knut wrote:


curious...how might you have voted? I would have voted with the majority if only because court precedence would lead me to that vote and without a compelling argument to overturn an earlier decision, why do so? cases build upon each other if there is any sort of connectivity...this case has earlier threads.

thanks for the vote break down...as I might have thought.

 
Well, I'm not a lawyer, so my ruling guide is justice, not the law. I would vote against the corporations as I believe the freedom to basically buy elections is a perversion of the Republic.

arighter2

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Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 6:39pm

 musik_knut wrote:


I didn't say I support the ruling...but, I will. too many recent rulings have applied a slow tourniquet to free speech...this stands as a clear call on free speech, even if we find something less than desirable in it.

  I'm with Slabby. Free Speech is for people, not for corporations.

musik_knut

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Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 6:38pm

 arighter2 wrote:

In favor: Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Scalia, Kennedy
Opposed:Bader-Ginsburg, Brey, Stevens, Sotomyer

inferred per Fox News
 

curious...how might you have voted? I would have voted with the majority if only because court precedence would lead me to that vote and without a compelling argument to overturn an earlier decision, why do so? cases build upon each other if there is any sort of connectivity...this case has earlier threads.

thanks for the vote break down...as I might have thought.
arighter2

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Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 21, 2010 - 6:35pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Justice Kennedy wrote the majority opinion...not sure how the rest aligned.

 
In favor: Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Scalia, Kennedy
Opposed:Bader-Ginsburg, Breyer, Stevens, Sotomyer

inferred per Fox News

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