[ ]   [ ]   [ ]                        [ ]      [ ]   [ ]

THREE WORDS - miamizsun - Jun 7, 2023 - 8:01am
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - lily34 - Jun 7, 2023 - 8:01am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - lily34 - Jun 7, 2023 - 7:56am
 
Get the Quote - black321 - Jun 7, 2023 - 7:46am
 
ONE WORD - lily34 - Jun 7, 2023 - 7:25am
 
FOUR WORDS - ColdMiser - Jun 7, 2023 - 7:24am
 
TWO WORDS - ColdMiser - Jun 7, 2023 - 7:23am
 
Mixtape Culture Club - ColdMiser - Jun 7, 2023 - 7:02am
 
Ukraine - miamizsun - Jun 7, 2023 - 6:45am
 
Artificial Intelligence - rgio - Jun 7, 2023 - 6:32am
 
Wordle - daily game - marko86 - Jun 7, 2023 - 5:45am
 
Simulcast of VR Live? - thisbody - Jun 7, 2023 - 4:32am
 
Name My Band - oldviolin - Jun 7, 2023 - 3:25am
 
Twitter and democracy - kurtster - Jun 7, 2023 - 2:15am
 
Independent Party Candidates - Lazy8 - Jun 6, 2023 - 10:16pm
 
Guns - Red_Dragon - Jun 6, 2023 - 7:33pm
 
The Obituary Page - oldviolin - Jun 6, 2023 - 6:11pm
 
Shall We Dance? - oldviolin - Jun 6, 2023 - 6:01pm
 
A Picture paints a thousand words - oldviolin - Jun 6, 2023 - 6:00pm
 
Trump - Beaker - Jun 6, 2023 - 5:30pm
 
Things You Thought Today - Antigone - Jun 6, 2023 - 5:13pm
 
What's your favorite quote? - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jun 6, 2023 - 4:46pm
 
Song information - Singletrack - Jun 6, 2023 - 4:23pm
 
Song of the Day - Manbird - Jun 6, 2023 - 4:03pm
 
Unquiet Minds - Mental Health Forum - miamizsun - Jun 6, 2023 - 2:06pm
 
Bad Poetry - GeneP59 - Jun 6, 2023 - 9:24am
 
You're welcome, manbird. - oldviolin - Jun 6, 2023 - 9:06am
 
Today in History - lily34 - Jun 6, 2023 - 7:09am
 
TV shows you watch - Steely_D - Jun 5, 2023 - 11:45pm
 
What Makes You Laugh? - Coaxial - Jun 5, 2023 - 6:14pm
 
Derplahoma! - Red_Dragon - Jun 5, 2023 - 4:28pm
 
June 2023 Photo Theme - Lines - parallel, converging, cur... - Antigone - Jun 5, 2023 - 2:40pm
 
New Music - miamizsun - Jun 5, 2023 - 8:06am
 
• • • BRING OUT YOUR DEAD • • •  - oldviolin - Jun 5, 2023 - 7:52am
 
May 2023 Photo Theme - Buds, Sprouts & Beginnings - sunybuny - Jun 5, 2023 - 7:22am
 
Talk Behind Their Backs Forum - lily34 - Jun 5, 2023 - 5:33am
 
Movie Recommendation - ScottFromWyoming - Jun 4, 2023 - 9:59pm
 
Tindersticks - oldviolin - Jun 4, 2023 - 8:53pm
 
just like old rario - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jun 4, 2023 - 7:41pm
 
Out the window - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jun 4, 2023 - 7:34pm
 
One Partying State - Wyoming News - geoff_morphini - Jun 4, 2023 - 1:48pm
 
Skeptix - R_P - Jun 4, 2023 - 12:04pm
 
USA! USA! USA! - R_P - Jun 4, 2023 - 10:22am
 
What Did You Do Today? - Antigone - Jun 3, 2023 - 4:40pm
 
Lyrics That Remind You of Someone - oldviolin - Jun 3, 2023 - 10:56am
 
Counting with Pictures - ScottN - Jun 2, 2023 - 8:28pm
 
Puzzle it - oldviolin - Jun 2, 2023 - 2:04pm
 
Fascism In America - R_P - Jun 2, 2023 - 1:24pm
 
(Big) Media Watch - R_P - Jun 2, 2023 - 12:43pm
 
China - R_P - Jun 2, 2023 - 12:26pm
 
Musky Mythology - Proclivities - Jun 2, 2023 - 11:50am
 
Climate Change - R_P - Jun 2, 2023 - 11:09am
 
Country Up The Bumpkin - oldviolin - Jun 2, 2023 - 9:21am
 
What Makes You Cry :) ? - Beez - Jun 2, 2023 - 9:00am
 
Allergies ( aka pollen hell) - black321 - Jun 2, 2023 - 8:02am
 
Food Democracy - Proclivities - Jun 2, 2023 - 6:23am
 
Canada - westslope - Jun 2, 2023 - 12:57am
 
Rock mix no longer available in Denmark - klausf - Jun 1, 2023 - 11:37pm
 
Dialing 1-800-Manbird - oldviolin - Jun 1, 2023 - 9:00pm
 
RightWingNutZ - R_P - Jun 1, 2023 - 4:32pm
 
Republican Wingnut Freak of the Day - Red_Dragon - Jun 1, 2023 - 3:56pm
 
Pernicious Pious Proclivities Particularized Prodigiously - R_P - Jun 1, 2023 - 10:56am
 
Come join us in Eureka! - lily34 - Jun 1, 2023 - 5:10am
 
RP in a Tesla EV - miamizsun - Jun 1, 2023 - 4:37am
 
21 - ScottFromWyoming - May 31, 2023 - 2:27pm
 
Russia - westslope - May 31, 2023 - 6:56am
 
Outstanding Covers - Steely_D - May 30, 2023 - 9:35am
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - renaultr17 - May 29, 2023 - 9:50pm
 
Helpful emergency signs - Proclivities - May 29, 2023 - 7:14am
 
Eversolo DMP-A6 streamer and RP? - William - May 28, 2023 - 8:36pm
 
MQA in administration - William - May 28, 2023 - 8:27pm
 
Stream stopping at promo - William - May 28, 2023 - 8:18pm
 
Ask for a tea - DaveInSaoMiguel - May 28, 2023 - 3:29am
 
Graphic designers, ho's! - Manbird - May 27, 2023 - 5:43pm
 
Lyrics that are stuck in your head today... - ScottN - May 27, 2023 - 5:28pm
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Immigration Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, ... 37, 38, 39  Next
Post to this Topic
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Dec 22, 2022 - 1:59pm

 haresfur wrote:


It is interesting to look back on about the first 150 years of Europeans in N. America (not counting the Vikings). People were moving freely back and forth across the borders. So you would think that the constitutional originalists would be on board with that. White people, anyway. These days Canada brings in far more refugees than the US, in spite of a much smaller population and economy.

I don't think there is an easy answer to how to frame the policies. The lines between economic, social, and political migrants are fuzzy. It is tricky in Australia with the proximity to some pretty awful places in Asia. We have a significant Sri Lankan-Tamil population but how much migration is it reasonable to accept when the Tamil area of India is right there? And probably over half of Afghanis would be better off here than there. Then there's Myranmar... As a pragmatist, I think the limiting factor on immigration is not as much about how many people could be absorbed but by the number that could be allowed in without a social backlash making for more restrictions in the long run. 


Borders are an anachronism. We are one species on one finite planet. We need to start acting like it.
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 22, 2022 - 1:49pm

 miamizsun wrote:


i'm going to say this again (and again)

immigration is one of our super powers
allowing people to "move" to a country/system where they are free to peacefully produce and express is paramount





It is interesting to look back on about the first 150 years of Europeans in N. America (not counting the Vikings). People were moving freely back and forth across the borders. So you would think that the constitutional originalists would be on board with that. White people, anyway. These days Canada brings in far more refugees than the US, in spite of a much smaller population and economy.

I don't think there is an easy answer to how to frame the policies. The lines between economic, social, and political migrants are fuzzy. It is tricky in Australia with the proximity to some pretty awful places in Asia. We have a significant Sri Lankan-Tamil population but how much migration is it reasonable to accept when the Tamil area of India is right there? And probably over half of Afghanis would be better off here than there. Then there's Myranmar... As a pragmatist, I think the limiting factor on immigration is not as much about how many people could be absorbed but by the number that could be allowed in without a social backlash making for more restrictions in the long run. 
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 22, 2022 - 10:41am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


I went to a thing where "liberals" were paired up with "conservatives" and you know which side I was recruited for but when the immigration subject was universally agreed to be a matter of degree, I dropped a Lazyism on them (I think) with "what right does a government have to restrict a person's freedom of movement?" and that was fun.


trouble-maker!
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 22, 2022 - 9:51am

 miamizsun wrote:


i'm going to say this again (and again)

immigration is one of our super powers
allowing people to "move" to a country/system where they are free to peacefully produce and express is paramount





I went to a thing where "liberals" were paired up with "conservatives" and you know which side I was recruited for but when the immigration subject was universally agreed to be a matter of degree, I dropped a Lazyism on them (I think) with "what right does a government have to restrict a person's freedom of movement?" and that was fun.
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 22, 2022 - 4:13am

 haresfur wrote:

It's a system designed to fail. But fail slowly to keep people in limbo. But Legal Immigration! Right?



i'm going to say this again (and again)

immigration is one of our super powers
allowing people to "move" to a country/system where they are free to peacefully produce and express is paramount



haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 21, 2022 - 2:32pm

 miamizsun wrote:
good gob that's ridiculous


It's a system designed to fail. But fail slowly to keep people in limbo. But Legal Immigration! Right?

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 21, 2022 - 1:01pm

good gob that's ridiculous
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 21, 2022 - 9:44am


NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 10:45am

At the risk of repetition


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 10:30am

 kurtster wrote:
And just what jobs are waiting for them ?  We already have an over supply of unskilled workers in case you haven't noticed.  And they still are not allowed to be employed legally.

The skilled workers that we need generally enter legally.  At least as far as I can tell.

You not paying attention doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

I've lost count of how many businesses I used to frequent (mostly restaurants) that have closed in my area due to labor shortage. Getting help in the ag sector is driving farmers out of business and forcing a lot of consolidation. Tried to hire a truck driver lately? Burger-flipping wages are over $20/hour here.

And it isn't just here; entry-level jobs are going begging all over the country. How can you not notice this?

The US government makes it extraordinarily difficult for workers of any skill level to enter the country legally. Skilled workers who cross illegally end up in menial jobs because they don't have the documents to get work in their fields.

And no, we don't have anything approaching open borders—as has been explained to you countless times. If we ever do you'll hear me celebrating.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 10:20am

 black321 wrote:

You are making the large, and historically wrong assumption these migrants will enter the welfare state and not the job market, further building the economy, and thereby supporting the welfare state 
 
And just what jobs are waiting for them ?  We already have an over supply of unskilled workers in case you haven't noticed.  And they still are not allowed to be employed legally.

The skilled workers that we need generally enter legally.  At least as far as I can tell.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 10:10am

 kurtster wrote:

Not fighting words.  Just an observation of the facts available.

Regarding Sanders, I don't have the quote but I remember his remarks about the necessity of a closed system for a welfare state to function properly made several years ago.

The internal funding of the welfare state is a finite resource.  It requires fixing the numbers of beneficiaries to the limits of the funds available.  When more and more people are added into the system without increases of funding, it fails.  How do you increase the funding ?  Print more money ?  Add to the debt with deficit spending ?  Sooner or later, the bills will come due.  The old Thatcher quote, socialism works until you run out of other peoples' money ...

You are making the large, and historically wrong assumption these migrants will enter the welfare state and not the job market, further building the economy, and thereby supporting the welfare state 

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 9:18am

 kurtster wrote:


I was trying to respond to a number of your claims that you spread across more than one post. One of your claims (Afaict) is that Biden and the Democrats want open borders to bring in more immigrants in order to boost the number of Democratic voters.
If you want to stick to this, so be it:
"How you can have a successful welfare state with an unlimited amount of participants entering into the system with no increase in resources ?"

If you had unlimited number of participants entering with no increase in resources (I take it you mean resources available to the welfare system), that situation would be untenable. 
But that notion reads like a bad hypothetical in an introductory macroeconomic policy class dealing with basic models. We have nothing like that situation occurring in the US. 
You're the king of buffoonery here, btw, so your cries that I've muddled your thoughts are pretty amusing. Still stuck in the pumpkin patch?
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 9:09am

Lest it gets lost in this debate, the provision known as Title 42 (Title  42 is the title of the U.S. Code devoted to health provisions) is an emergency health provision authorized because of the pandemic. It is not meant to be — and cannot be — a permanent border control measure,. It has to be lifted at some point. One can debate whether that time is now, but one cannot legitimately argue that it should be permanent. 
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 8:48am

 kcar wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
A successful welfare state which functions on the redistribution of wealth can only exist in a closed system, which you very well know. The "wealth" being redistributed is a finite resource. So tell me how you can have a successful welfare state with unrestricted access to the benefits.  

1. We do not have open borders. Biden and the Democratic party do not want open borders. 

2. Illegal immigrants in the US do not have "unrestricted access to the benefits." 

3. Non-citizens in the US, including illegal immigrants, cannot vote in federal, state and most local elections.

  https://www.usa.gov/who-can-vo...
U.S. immigrants are rising in number, but just half are eligible to vote3a. "This current snapshot shows that unauthorized Hispanic immigrants also lean more Democratic than Republican—though to a lesser degree than Hispanic immigrants who are currently eligible to vote. And it’s uncertain whether these unauthorized immigrants, many of whom are currently unaffiliated, would adopt similar political affiliations and voting patterns if given the chance to naturalize." https://www.pewresearch.org/fa... 4. Recent immigrants are less politically engaged and involved than US-born citizens.  So letting more illegal immigrants into this country is not a clear electoral win for Democrats. Also, the perception that the Democratic party is lax on illegal immigration is one of the biggest reasons for increased GOP voter turnout and campaign donations. 
 
Good grief, where to begin ?

I was making observations of what can negatively impact the welfare state as an entity.

Nothing in your responses addresses the question which was simply put ...

So tell me how you can have a successful welfare state with unrestricted access to the benefits ?????

2 does not answer the question.  It just offers your take on the access to benefits by a specific group.

Maybe if I rephrase the question for you ...

How you can have a successful welfare state with an unlimited amount of participants entering into the system with no increase in resources ?

I'll address your point number 3 separately later as you have totally missed the boat on that one and ran to the wrong goal post.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 8:36am

 black321 wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

Consensus smensuss.  Pass all the laws you want.  Biden will not enforce them, which is his Constitutional job. Biden wants opens borders.  The democratic party as a whole wants open borders.  And that is what we have right now. Problem is that a welfare state cannot function / exist for very long with open borders.  Even a good socialist like Bernie Sanders knows that.

Sounds like fighting words. 
good luck 
 
Not fighting words.  Just an observation of the facts available.

Regarding Sanders, I don't have the quote but I remember his remarks about the necessity of a closed system for a welfare state to function properly made several years ago.

The internal funding of the welfare state is a finite resource.  It requires fixing the numbers of beneficiaries to the limits of the funds available.  When more and more people are added into the system without increases of funding, it fails.  How do you increase the funding ?  Print more money ?  Add to the debt with deficit spending ?  Sooner or later, the bills will come due.  The old Thatcher quote, socialism works until you run out of other peoples' money ...
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 7:45am

 kurtster wrote:

Consensus smensuss.  Pass all the laws you want.  Biden will not enforce them, which is his Constitutional job.

Biden wants opens borders.  The democratic party as a whole wants open borders.  And that is what we have right now.

Problem is that a welfare state cannot function / exist for very long with open borders.  Even a good socialist like Bernie Sanders knows that.

Sounds like fighting words. 
good luck 

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Dec 17, 2022 - 11:40pm

 kurtster wrote:


A successful welfare state which functions on the redistribution of wealth can only exist in a closed system, which you very well know.

The "wealth" being redistributed is a finite resource.

So tell me how you can have a successful welfare state with unrestricted access to the benefits.  

1. We do not have open borders. Biden and the Democratic party do not want open borders. 

2. Illegal immigrants in the US do not have "unrestricted access to the benefits." 

3. Non-citizens in the US, including illegal immigrants, cannot vote in federal, state and most local elections. 

https://www.usa.gov/who-can-vo...


U.S. immigrants are rising in number, but just half are eligible to vote

3a. "This current snapshot shows that unauthorized Hispanic immigrants also lean more Democratic than Republican—though to a lesser degree than Hispanic immigrants who are currently eligible to vote. And it’s uncertain whether these unauthorized immigrants, many of whom are currently unaffiliated, would adopt similar political affiliations and voting patterns if given the chance to naturalize."

https://www.pewresearch.org/fa...

4. Recent immigrants are less politically engaged and involved than US-born citizens. 

So letting more illegal immigrants into this country is not a clear electoral win for Democrats. Also, the perception that the Democratic party is lax on illegal immigration is one of the biggest reasons for increased GOP voter turnout and campaign donations. 

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2022 - 9:21pm

 R_P wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
Problem is that a welfare state cannot function / exist for very long with open borders.

"Muh entitlements!" IGMFU
 

A successful welfare state which functions on the redistribution of wealth can only exist in a closed system, which you very well know.

The "wealth" being redistributed is a finite resource.

So tell me how you can have a successful welfare state with unrestricted access to the benefits.  
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Dec 17, 2022 - 3:25pm

 kurtster wrote:
Problem is that a welfare state cannot function / exist for very long with open borders.

"Muh entitlements!"

IGMFU
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, ... 37, 38, 39  Next