ScottFromWyoming wrote:  Yes.  Because once they get a decent education, they will be tax payers  and will be contributing to this system.  They will be raising their children to be achievers and they will be helping their communities.  Some will become business owners themselves and hire people who need jobs and produce marketable products that keep the cycle going.  It's not all dark and bleak - look for positives and build on them.

 ScottFromWyoming wrote: 
Hey! They took my joooooobbbbb!  Now, now Skeeter settle down now.

*bump* to clear out the "breaking news" thread
 
 hippiechick wrote:   
 It isn't a matter of "deserving," even. The rules for who can qualify aren't that simple but it boils down to: they've been here a long time, came here as children, and if we don't open up a pathway to success for them, they will be a drain on our system forever. If we don't give them some path to legitimacy, they'll never come forward. Sure, find a way to stop the influx, go ahead with that (try not to just target brown-skinned people though, that tends to annoy a lot of citizens). But in the meantime, the ones who are here through no fault of their own? You can have them continue to be a drain on services, non-taxpaying, illegals forever, or you can ...not. There are a lot (most?) who won't qualify, but the ones who do, why not open a door to legitimacy for them?

The immigrants do the 'stoop' labor that most of us can't do. I try to set up work so my guys won't need to bend and stoop. They don't seem to care either way. I can not see white people bending and stooping in vegetable fields bending all day  without caving. And have ya seen the guys that tie rebar on concrete construction jobs? Sheesh. Buy them some water...or a beer after work. 

 sirdroseph wrote: 

Before you can leave, we'll have to see your vacation papers.

 aflanigan wrote: 

Oh so now you are going to start asking him for his papers? I though you was agin' that! Ok, obviously I am outta control. My excuse is I go on vacation in exactly one minute!

 kurtster wrote: 

I think, my friend, that you are long on conjecture and short on documentation.  Which means, you'd make a great politician!

j/k

 kurtster wrote:

This is exactly my AutoCAD example that you said didn't apply. If jobs pay well and there is a way to attain them at a lower entry cost, people will use that and put downward pressure on wages for that position. Sure the ITT Tech guys didn't do the same quality work that I did, or do it as fast, but when the hourly rate (or worse - piece rate) is 25%, you can spend some time and wait for rework.  There is no guarantee of no competition in the job market.  Yes the illegal immigration thing is an issue, but it's just one component. People demanding competitive prices and business owners seeking profit also factor in and at the end of the day if a carpenter charges too much, he won't get the work.

"They took our jobs" is an emotional call. But there are pressures on jobs all over. Certifications, licenses, apprenticeship programs are all just ways for the worker to push back and maintain some scarcity. They are a way of protecting the wage base by making the barrier to entry for the profession higher.  Immigration laws are just one more factor like that in the work force, it just so happens that it has some more obvious societal impacts as well, and has a nice emotional hook for everyone to hang on.

 sirdroseph wrote: 
My dad who is an architect made the point that a plumber in San Francisco made $25 an hour in the 50's and 60's.  That rang a bell back then when I was just old enough in 5th grade to make $20 in a month with a paper route for the old Berkeley Gazzette.

 kurtster wrote: 

Yep, I have always pushed my son into getting some type of certification or apprentiship as opposed to a 4 year degree and not just because there is no way I can afford it!

 sirdroseph wrote: 
Sorry for the wrong take.  You are correct on the wages of the jobs I was refering to.  The point there is that they have taken away most of these jobs paying 50k from Americans because they work for less.

On your second para, we totally agree.

The low level jobs I guess we can agree upon are hospitality, landscaping, restuarant and domestic housekeeping, and others to be sure.  On the other hand, these are jobs that were often filled by Americans who fell on hard times to get them through.  They are not a career.  They are something to get one through the night.  That and they are entry level jobs to establish a work record.  For the illegals however, they are career jobs in reality, because that is about as far as they can progress because they are illegal.

 kurtster wrote: 



I think your reliance on the "trades" is skewing the argument. I 150% agree about vo-Ed. I know I have used this example before but - I have two brothers. I went to college, brother one went to a two year vo-Ed school after HS was certified as a stationary engineer and has worked in HVAC his whole life. Brother two went into the electricians apprentice program and has worked as an industrial electrician his whole life. Both make a sizable amount more than I with the degree does.

But neither is in any fear of losing their jobs to illegals, nor are several friends that are union trained carpenters. Illegals may do the "less skilled" of the trades such as hanging drywall and basic painting but they are not going to be pushing out certified skilled tradesman. My brothers and friends sometimes are concerned for their jobs but not because of illegals taking their jobs but due to the economic down turn.

A group in this area that are "infringing" on the carpentry trade are the Amish. A fair number of builders in my area have been using groups of Amish to do the basic framing of homes. They are skilled and they work relatively cheap. In this area my carpenter friends are more concerned about them than the illegals.

 kurtster wrote: 

You misunderstand me, I am not talking about these jobs you are talking about above. I do not consider them the low level jobs I meant. I am no policy wonk expert on this subject, but do not see these skill level jobs requiring certifications and appentiships being taken by illegals. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think there are a lot of illegals making 50k plus in these level of jobs you are talking about.
Also, you say the crafts are now being overrun doing shoddy work for lower rates. Does the country of origin preclude someone to do this? Cannot Americans do the same crafts for lower rates just as illegals? I think there are plenty of poverty stricken mericans that would fill this Wal-mart type pool of workers were there no illegals. I think this is a non-issue.

BTW I actually think the types of jobs you are talking about are more important than white collar college degree required jobs. These are true skills that will always be needed in our economy for the foreseeable future unlike the traditional 4 year college degree jobs which I think are becoming less and less important.

 sirdroseph wrote: 
I'll disagree again, using the construction trades as an example.  While they may not require higher education, they usually require an apprenticeship leading towards accomplishment designations on master and journeyman for example.  There is a difference between wood worker and wood butcher for example.  Plumbers and electricians require higher education levels than highschool.  These trade jobs are were well paying.

An auto mechanic now needs a 4 year degree.  Welders go to school.  Same with HVAC.  College is not for everyone, nor is the end all fix all.  Some do not even want to go to college.  Many are happy working with their hands.  We have an oversupply of college grads now who cannot find work.  We used to have a vibrant vo - ed program in this country teaching a wide range of skills for those who were not college material or simply had no interest in college.

We are supposed to forego all of these skills that used to be taught at the vo - ed level to illegals ?  Is there something wrong with an American making 50k being a carpenter or painter ?  These crafts are now overrun with illegals doing the same for 20k and with inferior skills, doing crappy work because they are not dependent on a reputation to keep getting future work.  In painting for example, there are two levels, blow and go and painting.

 kurtster wrote: 

Bottom line Kurt, all the jobs we are discussing in the context of illegals are lowest level jobs that do not even require a high school education. Quite frankly, whether these jobs are filled and by whom is a pretty low concern right now for the state of the economy. Getting more Americans educated to the point that they are over qualified for these jobs and finding ways to create more higher level jobs is where are focus should be. These types of jobs we are speaking of are neccessary, do not require any education or special skills and will always be filled by someone.

 aflanigan wrote: 
A thoughtful take.  I have not gone to your link yet.

I'll reply with a couple of thoughts, again based upon observation more than anything.

Most of the illegals that come here, don't spend all the money that they make here.  A great deal of it, up to 50% or maybe more. gets sent back home to their families.  Or at least that has traditionally been the pattern over decades.  The money they make gets sent home for two purposes.  One is to help improve the family's life back home and the other is to raise money to finance the journey north for the rest of their family.

Traditionally, on payday, they usually head(ed) straight to the closest Western Union Office and send the money by wire to their families back home.  This is based upon my experience growing up in SoCal where this was the norm and where most of the illegals congregated, with of course the exception of Texas as well.  This pattern of behaviour is pretty well documented.  As a rule, the illegals were / are very thrifty.  They spend as little as possible during their stay in the states.  They do not aquire things because they are always moving around, due to the fact that they are living in the shadows and must be able to relocate very easily at a moments notice.  They may buy cars, but they don't buy TV's, washers and dryers, computers and big ticket items that settled people buy because they must remain portable.  In that sense, they do not contribute to our economy.  They are a drain on social services as well.  That is well documented and not necessary to discuss for this point.

The other aspect of wages and their effect of keeping wages down overall is pretty simple.  When the above point of the money being sent out of the country is factored in, it becomes more apparent.  With the exception of agriculture, they really do keep wages down with an artificial oversupply of cheap labor.  To further a meaningful discussion on this subject we need to talk about just what are the jobs they are doing that Americans won't, besides agriculture.

My observations tell me that the primary catagories are the construction trades, landscaping, hospitality, domestic home services and restuarants.  Please bring up more if I missed some.  These catagories are all ones that Americans will do, to the best of my knowledge.  They all require an able body and hard work, yet Americans will do these if they are available.  Many of these jobs used to be entry level jobs that our kids used to do in the summer to make money for school.  They are no longer available, especially in the southwestern border states because of the influx of illegals.  When traveling and staying in a motel anywhere, how many Americans are doing the housekeeping ?  Basically none.  Any traveler has noted this by now.  I have friends who have done this occasionally during hard times (here in Ohio) but find it very difficult to keep at because of language barriers, attitudes and the work ethic of the foreign born workers they have to deal with.

So to really continue, let's talk about just what are the jobs that Americans alledgedly will not do that the illegals are taking.  I bet we find that the list is much shorter than many would have us think.

Much of yesterday's discussion involved the notion of whether undocumented immigrants suppress wages.  Kurt seems to think so.  I wasn't  so sure since his evidence consisted of a handful of examples.  It seems that when you look at the big picture, illegal immigrants may actually raise wages overall:



Justice Scalia is Upset about Illegal Immigration.  But Where's His Evidence?

Alot of the food supply is federally subsidized too, distorting the true cost. So its not a true free market in agriculture.

 islander wrote: 

Another point is that we now import over half of our food supply.

Fast food chains such as McDonalds have contract growers.  They do not participate in the open market as a rule.  This is how they maintain their supply, costs, product standards and consistency.

 oldslabsides wrote: 
Our food is so cheap it won't support the market cost to produce it.   Normally, this isn't really a big deal. When the cost of production and distribution of an item is more than the market is willing to pay for it in the face of competing goods, those items tend to just go away. But food is much more of a necessity, so we should be worried.  When we have fast food places offering up 'dollar menus' as competition for people making burgers at home, it forces stores to try and lower prices, they pressure producers who then trim where they can - usually labor.  We've become so used to cheap plentiful food, we're not willing to pay enough to support an individual to harvest that food.  We've done the same thing with DVD players and lots of consumer goods. But chasing the lowest dollar in our food supply will not end well.