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Index » Regional/Local » Europe » Ukraine Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 82, 83, 84 ... 113, 114, 115  Next
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NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Mar 3, 2022 - 3:36am

good opinion piece on Putin
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 10:40pm

re the discussion on a no-flight zone.

I tend to agree with Ben Wallace. The EU and NATO need to draw a line between passively and actively engaging the Russians. It looks to all intents and purposes to me that Putin is actively seeking a direct confrontation with NATO so we shouldn't give him an excuse.
Further, a no-fly zone wouldn't be accepted by the Russians and would immediately lead to an air battle. Then it is all on. 

But NATO and the EU can equip the Ukrainians to fight our war for us without that counting as direct hostilities. Also Ukraine has a lot of options still open to it, given the right equipment. The Russians, most strangely, haven't established air superiority and Ukrainian drones have inflicted a lot of damage.

But whatever way this pans out, it is going to be long and bloody and exact enormous human suffering. 
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 10:26pm

If true, this would be highly significant.
The Russian Federal Security Service leaked information that alerted Ukraine to an assassination plot against president Volodymyr Zelenskiy, according to the cyber-hacking collective Anonymous.
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 7:16pm

“Ukraine doesn’t want to be covered in bodies of soldiers,” he said. “Go home.”
oldviolin

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 6:55pm

 R_P wrote:
 oldviolin wrote:
It appears the EU is an economic and political arrangement rather than a treaty charter providing for militaristic protections in the guise of peacekeeping.

The political arrangement includes foreign policy/defense.
 
Ah. What a quagmire. More clearly defined. Thanks.
R_P

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 6:47pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
Yes. I wonder if a Russian aircraft defending itself against an EU fighter would qualify as an attack on a NATO member. The devil is in the details, I suppose.

As quoted below, you (likely) can't establish a no-fly zone without Russia's agreement.

Red_Dragon

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Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 6:43pm

 R_P wrote:

The political arrangement includes foreign policy/defense.


Yes. I wonder if a Russian aircraft defending itself against an EU fighter would qualify as an attack on a NATO member. The devil is in the details, I suppose.
R_P

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 6:39pm

 oldviolin wrote:
It appears the EU is an economic and political arrangement rather than a treaty charter providing for militaristic protections in the guise of peacekeeping.

The political arrangement includes foreign policy/defense.
oldviolin

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 6:16pm

 kurtster wrote:

That is my understanding, too.  I was just trying to provide an answer to the question posed.
 
Indeed. I suppose I was referring to the original question by R_D. As to the overlaps, I'm sure further complications ensue at that point...
kurtster

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 6:10pm

 oldviolin wrote:

It appears the EU is an economic and political arrangement rather than a treaty charter providing for militaristic protections in the guise of peacekeeping.
 
That is my understanding, too.  I was just trying to provide an answer to the question posed.
oldviolin

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 6:04pm

 kurtster wrote:

If the EU country is a member of NATO, there is a problem*.  So of all the non NATO members of the EU, who is capable of undertaking such a task ?

* We all know that I am subpar in my intelligence compared to everyone else here, so my assessment is subject to your peer review and approval.
 
It appears the EU is an economic and political arrangement rather than a treaty charter providing for militaristic protections in the guise of peacekeeping.
kurtster

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 6:02pm

 R_P wrote:
 Red_Dragon wrote:

So, here's a thought.... Why couldn't the EU - not NATO - enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine? The EU has, collectively, an enormous air force. I'm certain someone will explain to me just how wrong this is.


Would make no difference to Russia, i.e. an escalation/interference.
 
It would make a difference in that if Russia attacked a (or any) NATO member in reprisal, then Article 5 kicks in and everyone is involved by default and design.*

* again the same caveat as mentioned in the post below will apply.
kurtster

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 5:59pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
So, here's a thought.... Why couldn't the EU - not NATO - enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine? The EU has, collectively, an enormous air force. I'm certain someone will explain to me just how wrong this is.
 
If the EU country is a member of NATO, there is a problem*.  So of all the non NATO members of the EU, who is capable of undertaking such a task ?

* We all know that I am subpar in my intelligence compared to everyone else here, so my assessment is subject to your peer review and approval.



R_P

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 5:54pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:

So, here's a thought.... Why couldn't the EU - not NATO - enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine? The EU has, collectively, an enormous air force. I'm certain someone will explain to me just how wrong this is.


Would make no difference to Russia, i.e. an escalation/interference.

Also:
No-fly zones have been enforced in the past with great success, said Rae, pointing to the landmark effort in 1991 in the skies over northern Iraq to protect Kurds from a genocidal regime in Baghdad ruled by the dictator Saddam Hussein.

The United States, Britain and France patrolled the skies over northern Iraq, which kept Hussein's war planes on the ground and left Kurdish Peshmerga fighters to wage a ground war for the survival of their people without having to endure hellfire from above.

"It's important to remember that the successful no-fly zones have been carried out successfully because no one challenged the power of the country that was providing the air cover," said Rae.

"For example, the Kurds in northern Iraq, the no-fly zone that was put in place ... was allowed to be maintained, because it was respected by Hussein, was respected by the Russians, respected by the Chinese, respected by the Saudis, respected by everybody."

That simply is not the case today in Ukraine, said Rae.

"One has to recognize what the risks of that would be," he said.


Red_Dragon

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 4:54pm

So, here's a thought.... Why couldn't the EU - not NATO - enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine? The EU has, collectively, an enormous air force. I'm certain someone will explain to me just how wrong this is.
kurtster

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 1:45pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Can you two guys maybe bear in mind one of us is currently under bombardment.
I don't think she gives a shit if Biden drops a consonant or the Beatles got tired of touring the USA back in the day. 
What's at stake is worth infinitely more than your petty point-scoring on this thread, of all places.
 
OBTW, I did notice that you did not criticize VV for mocking and changing the tone of the discussion with his comments on the use of maps.  It was gratuitous and certainly unnecessary, imo.

A double standard.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 11:25am

 kurtster wrote:

Yes you are correct. 

What I meant to say actually is that the cost of these items will and are going through the roof and shortages will occur, even in the EU.

On the oil though, just how are you going to stop using Russian hydrocarbons with the snap of a finger as you claim.  You do realize that hydrocarbons are the primary source of fertilizer and then the fuel needed for agriculture.  This can drastically drive down the grain production and yields of the EU and the costs up.  And also a large impact on available capital as agriculture ties up a lot of capital between the time of planting and harvesting.  There are no easy answers or quick fixes.

Face the facts, the EU has become too reliant on Russia for too many of its critical needs.
 
hey, have you heard of this thing called open markets? They're brilliant. Maybe you should try them in the States sometime.
kurtster

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 11:20am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote: 
Yes you are correct. 

What I meant to say actually is that the cost of these items will and are going through the roof and shortages will occur, even in the EU.

On the oil though, just how are you going to stop using Russian hydrocarbons with the snap of a finger as you claim.  You do realize that hydrocarbons are the primary source of fertilizer and then the fuel needed for agriculture.  This can drastically drive down the grain production and yields of the EU and the costs up.  And also a large impact on available capital as agriculture ties up a lot of capital between the time of planting and harvesting.  There are no easy answers or quick fixes.

Face the facts, the EU has become too reliant on Russia for too many of its critical needs.
Animal-Farm

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 11:12am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

I'd really like to know what guys like Abramovich really think about all of this. Putin must be costing them billions.



Every market has Russia as taboo, it's like instant Brexit 
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Mar 2, 2022 - 11:07am

 Red_Dragon wrote:
 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

The mood here in Germany is very nervous. Very few can make any sense of what Putin is actually trying to achieve. He has shot himself in the foot as far as trade with the EU goes. No one here is going to buy his gas or oil in the foreseeable future, which means he will have to sell it to China, making him very dependent on an immediate neighbour. He's just proven he gives a shit about national identity, by razing Ukrainian cities and cultural sites. So that rules out two motives that could be expected of a normal ruler: economic well-being and love of the mother country. 

It appears all he really wants is total obedience and subjugation. He's not going to find that in Ukraine. They will fight for their freedom for if they weren't a united nation before, Putin has just made them one.

And he seems to be itching for a fight with a NATO country, but knows he would lose a conventional war with NATO, which leaves the nuclear option, where we all die.

Conclusion: the guy must be insane.

Personally, I think he is one of the playground bullies that are compelled to create situations where everyone around them thinks they are arseholes. Seeking self-affirmation in rejection or something like that.



Our hope lies in someone getting close enough to put a bullet in his head. Or arsenic in his borsht.
 
I'd really like to know what guys like Abramovich really think about all of this. Putin must be costing them billions.

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