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Index » Regional/Local » Europe » Ukraine Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 114, 115, 116  Next
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R_P

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 5:52pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
(...) Take comfort where you can.

It only takes a little bit of understanding and some humility to know that there are other countries that have their own "national interests" that are not going to be subservient to yours. That's understanding, not advocacy.

Facile straw men and red herrings won't help you sell overpriced and overrated "American Power™." Maybe still with some domestically and with some allies, but it comes with a lot of strings attached.

Lazy8

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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 5:29pm

 R_P wrote:
Except nothing is "easily-replaced," see the supply chain. Not the missiles, not the launchers. Without launchers there are no... launches. Pretty expensive radar works though.

The thing about missile-based air defense systems is that the rockets are consumables. They're supposed to be replaced. The launcher is the simplest part of it.

Best numbers I can find say the launcher (M902) is about $10M. The cheapest missile it fires (the PAC-2 GEM-T, which fit 4 to a launcher) each cost $3.7M. A full load of those missiles costs more than the launcher.

I am not here to defend Russia or it's armaments. The article was about your side.

You're funny. I like you!

I don't do bets, ever, but time will obviously tell. It can't be too far off now. The F-16s and the glorious victory of Ukraine.

That'll really chap your ass, won't it? If it weren't for the whole stopping-the-(hopefully)-last-despotic-war-of-conquest-in-Europe thing that would make me feel just terrible.
Save your dollars for the Ukrainians. A hundred bucks could buy them some candles. I've heard they might need some this winter.

Proud of that, are you?

Putin may have wasted an entire generation of young men in two countries, squandered his country's future and resources, and made enemies of its neighbors but by golly he made those Ukrainians suffer.

Take comfort where you can.
R_P

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 11:55am

 Lazy8 wrote:

Yes, launchers. The trucks with tubes that shoot the missiles out. The cheapest, easiest to spot, and most easily-replaced component in a battery. That's why I counted radars.

They were ambushed on the move, when the radar isn't operating and can't shoot back. Still counts of course, but it's not the part of the system that makes it cost north of a billion dollars.

The S-400 systems destroyed were all operational. Some of them even launched at the incoming missiles and drones that took them out. If you want to count launchers then your side looks even worse: Russia has lost 17 S-400 launchers.

And if you want to count rocket artillery systems lost (HIMARS is artillery, not anti-air) I encourage you to compare the loss statistics for both the Ukrainians and your side. Real statistics, of course—Sergey Shoigu does not count.

Offer stands. A hundred filthy capitalist dollars you could send to Russia to buy part of a glide bomb to drop on a Ukrainian hardware store. All it takes is Russia to prove its obvious superiority at weapons development.


Except nothing is "easily-replaced," see the supply chain. Not the missiles, not the launchers. Without launchers there are no... launches. Pretty expensive radar works though.

I am not here to defend Russia or it's armaments. The article was about your side.

I don't do bets, ever, but time will obviously tell. It can't be too far off now. The F-16s and the glorious victory of Ukraine.

Save your dollars for the Ukrainians. A hundred bucks could buy them some candles. I've heard they might need some this winter.

Lazy8

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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 10:12am

 R_P wrote:

You're full of it?

A Russian Drone Spotted A Ukrainian Patriot Air-Defense Crew Convoying Near The Front Line. Soon, A Russian Hypersonic Missile Streaked Down.
Ukraine just lost its first Patriot launchers, and probably their crews.

He who must not be named or believed says it's five launchers gone.

Yes, launchers. The trucks with tubes that shoot the missiles out. The cheapest, easiest to spot, and most easily-replaced component in a battery. That's why I counted radars.

They were ambushed on the move, when the radar isn't operating and can't shoot back. Still counts of course, but it's not the part of the system that makes it cost north of a billion dollars.

The S-400 systems destroyed were all operational. Some of them even launched at the incoming missiles and drones that took them out. If you want to count launchers then your side looks even worse: Russia has lost 17 S-400 launchers.

And if you want to count rocket artillery systems lost (HIMARS is artillery, not anti-air) I encourage you to compare the loss statistics for both the Ukrainians and your side. Real statistics, of course—Sergey Shoigu does not count.

Offer stands. A hundred filthy capitalist dollars you could send to Russia to buy part of a glide bomb to drop on a Ukrainian hardware store. All it takes is Russia to prove its obvious superiority at weapons development.

R_P

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 1:29am

 Lazy8 wrote:
Patriot has been in production since 1981. Significant upgrades over time, but the basic system is over 40 years old. Ukraine has lost...let's see...carry the 7...none. (...)

What do you say? 

You're full of it?

A Russian Drone Spotted A Ukrainian Patriot Air-Defense Crew Convoying Near The Front Line. Soon, A Russian Hypersonic Missile Streaked Down.
Ukraine just lost its first Patriot launchers, and probably their crews.

He who must not be named or believed says it's five launchers gone.

haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
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Posted: Jun 14, 2024 - 11:03pm

 R_P wrote:

I think you mean Russian invaded areas
haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
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Posted: Jun 14, 2024 - 11:03pm

 R_P wrote:

I think you mean Russian invaded areas
Lazy8

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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 14, 2024 - 10:56pm

 R_P wrote:
Ukraine War rips veil off of US weapons superiority
Many of the failures, including the HIMARS, have been due to their reliance on GPS
Critics have long maintained that our obsession with technologically complex weapons inevitably yields unreliable systems produced in limited numbers because of their predictably high cost. They are furthermore likely to fail in combat because of the military’s lack of interest in adequate testing (lest realistic tests reveal serious shortcomings and thereby threaten the budget.) The unforgiving operational test provided by the Ukraine war has shown that the critics were absolutely right. Successive “game changing” systems - such as the Switchblade drone, the M-1 Abrams tank, Patriot air defense missiles, the M777 howitzer, the Excalibur guided 155 mm artillery round, the HIMARS precision missile, GPS-guided bombs, and Skydio drones endowed with artificial intelligence, were all dispatched to “the fight,” as the military like to call it, with fanfare and high expectations.

Said with (presumably) a straight face! Very impressive.

Here are the Oryx estimates for Russian equipment losses for the war to date. Ukrainian losses here. I invite you to compare.

The bulk of the Ukrainian losses are ancient Soviet equipment but a telling comparison is radars for top-of-the-line anti-air missile systems The radar modules are the most important (and most expensive) component of the system. For Ukraine this would be US Patriot batteries, for Russia it would be S-400. Most estimates put production costs for an S-400 at about $500M USD. Patriot production cost is about $1.09B USD, roughly twice as much. Export costs for each are roughly double the production costs.

S-400 has been in production since 2007.  Russia has lost 4 to date —only counting destroyed systems, not damaged and repairable—and one command module.

Patriot has been in production since 1981. Significant upgrades over time, but the basic system is over 40 years old. Ukraine has lost...let's see...carry the 7...none.

The S-400s have all been lost to airborne attack, either missiles or drones—the very threat it's supposed to defend against. The top-of-the-line Russian air defense system needs...a better air defense system to protect it.

F-16s haven't arrived yet. Care to put money up on the air-to-air kill ratio once they do? Here's a hint: to date the F-16 stats are: 76-1-5: 76 air-to-air kills, 1 air-to-air loss, 5 lost due to ground fire.

F-16 was introduced in 1978. Again, significant upgrades over time, but basically a 50 year old design.

MiG-29 (introduced in 1983, the nearest equivalent to the F-16 despite having twice the number of engines) has a record of 6-18-1.

I'm serious. Let's set terms and I'll bet you straight across, $100 USD to $100 CDN that the F-16 air-to-air kill ratio will be greater than 1:1 6 months after rollout, as verified by Oryx or Deepstate—take your pick.

What do you say?

R_P

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Posted: Jun 14, 2024 - 7:06pm

What the Swiss 'peace summit' can realistically achieve
Putin offers truce if Ukraine exits Russian-claimed areas and drops NATO bid. Kyiv rejects it
R_P

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 3:07pm

Ukraine War rips veil off of US weapons superiority
Many of the failures, including the HIMARS, have been due to their reliance on GPS
Critics have long maintained that our obsession with technologically complex weapons inevitably yields unreliable systems produced in limited numbers because of their predictably high cost. They are furthermore likely to fail in combat because of the military’s lack of interest in adequate testing (lest realistic tests reveal serious shortcomings and thereby threaten the budget.) The unforgiving operational test provided by the Ukraine war has shown that the critics were absolutely right. Successive “game changing” systems - such as the Switchblade drone, the M-1 Abrams tank, Patriot air defense missiles, the M777 howitzer, the Excalibur guided 155 mm artillery round, the HIMARS precision missile, GPS-guided bombs, and Skydio drones endowed with artificial intelligence, were all dispatched to “the fight,” as the military like to call it, with fanfare and high expectations.

Beaker

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Location: Your safe space


Posted: May 31, 2024 - 12:08pm

 thisbody wrote:
Biden Authorizes Ukraine to Make “Limited” Strikes on Russia With US Weapons

Germany promptly follows suit, after politicians bribed by the military-industrial complex from all ends of NATO have started to cry out "the need" for days. - If you ask me, again, capitalism is risking to plunge the world into chaos for more financial gains of a select few.


"after politicians bribed by the military-industrial complex from all ends of NATO"



R_P

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Posted: May 31, 2024 - 10:11am

More elastic red lines.
thisbody

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Location: North (doubtful)
Gender: Male


Posted: May 31, 2024 - 9:07am

Biden Authorizes Ukraine to Make “Limited” Strikes on Russia With US Weapons

Germany promptly follows suit, after politicians bribed by the military-industrial complex from all ends of NATO have started to cry out "the need" for days. - If you ask me, again, capitalism is risking to plunge the world into chaos for more financial gains of a select few.

R_P

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Posted: May 13, 2024 - 5:50pm

Related:

Related 2
R_P

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Posted: May 13, 2024 - 2:37pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Sing it bro!  that is precisely the problem with one-party rule. Alternative to Putin in Russia's last election? forget it. Xi in China? Forget it.  Dictatorships can be beneficial but very often they are not and tend to foster perpetuation of the ruling elite. That is precisely the problem.

and yes, all the usual caveats about democracies still apply.  

It was aimed at systems, not parties. Whether it is capitalist or not. And whether it has 1 party or 10. And whether it's democratic (people rule/participate in power) or authoritarian. Putin's Russia is not Xi's China is not North Korea is not Egypt is not Iran, etc.

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: May 13, 2024 - 2:30pm

 R_P wrote:

They will have them, but they are different. No doubt aimed at the functioning of The Party, which can still be democratic (as offering choice on candidates, etc.).

The Chinese believe their system is democratic (the people rule) within the hierarchical and ideological constraints.

Any system can produce good and bad, and historically has. I don't buy e.g. Thatcher's TINA (There is no alternative). There are always alternatives. Preventing alternatives is worse. It's dogma.



Sing it bro!  that is precisely the problem with one-party rule. Alternative to Putin in Russia's last election? forget it. Xi in China? Forget it.  Dictatorships can be beneficial but very often they are not and tend to foster perpetuation of the ruling elite. That is precisely the problem.

and yes, all the usual caveats about democracies still apply.  
R_P

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Posted: May 13, 2024 - 2:22pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
But for all your detractions concerning the US system, autocratic, one-party systems avoid all such checks and balances by their very nature. They just do whatever the ruler(s) decide is best. They maybe wise. But they may also be incompetent or just downright deranged. There is no way this can be better than the US system.

They will have them, but they are different. No doubt aimed at the functioning of The Party, which can still be democratic (as offering choice on candidates, etc.) and stratified/decentralized.

The Chinese believe their system is democratic (the people rule) within the hierarchical and ideological constraints.

Any system can produce good and bad, and historically has. I don't buy e.g. Thatcher's TINA (There is no alternative). There are always alternatives. Preventing alternatives is worse. It's dogma.

haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: May 13, 2024 - 2:17pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:


Fair point.. it is quite possible for a fascist government to be democratically elected. Happens all the time. Well, sometimes. And then a democratic system is basically no different to an autocratic one.
To stop this, you need to have checks and balances anchored in something that the electorate cannot throw out, which is kind of what the founding fathers tried to do.. 
It is also why I am in favour of proportional representation rather than two-party first-past-the-post systems. They are more moderate by nature because they are forced to form coalitions.

But for all your detractions concerning the US system, autocratic, one-party systems avoid all such checks and balances by their very nature. They just do whatever the ruler(s) decide is best. They maybe wise. But they may also be incompetent or just downright deranged. There is no way this can be better than the US system.


This is where I disagree with you. Proportional representation can be more extreme because they give the balance of power to the extremist minorities. Well, when the extremists are in the minority that is. 

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: May 13, 2024 - 1:54pm

 R_P wrote:

In essence, when it comes to those actions, no. Changing parties or being allowed to criticize (to some extent, see increasing bans/media conformity/shunning) makes no difference. You can actually see the interests converge along party lines.

The only accountability is to vote them out? That has no effect on those actions performed with impunity while in office. And every time, after the fact, we can say: well, something should have happened, but didn't.

You can't bitch about international law when you mostly ignore it at will.


Fair point.. it is quite possible for a fascist government to be democratically elected. Happens all the time. Well, sometimes. And then a democratic system is basically no different to an autocratic one.
To stop this, you need to have checks and balances anchored in something that the electorate cannot throw out, which is kind of what the founding fathers tried to do.. 
It is also why I am in favour of proportional representation rather than two-party first-past-the-post systems. They are more moderate by nature because they are forced to form coalitions.

But for all your detractions concerning the US system, autocratic, one-party systems avoid all such checks and balances by their very nature. They just do whatever the ruler(s) decide is best. They maybe wise. But they may also be incompetent or just downright deranged. There is no way this can be better than the US system.

R_P

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Posted: May 13, 2024 - 1:40pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Oh, not very well at all. But it should have. 
IMO  US should sign up to the UCHR and obey it. It would be waaaay  stronger on the international stage  if it lived up to its principles. It is one of the great tragedies of the modern age that it doesn't, instead putting national interest ahead of some higher system of universal rights and accountability, such as international law.

But again, you are missing my  point. I do not hold the US up to be the paragon of virtue that we should all aspire to. 
All I am saying is it s a lot better than an autocratic or even fascist regime that doesn't even pay lip service to any competing values-based system. Not because the US upholds certain values more than the other regimes (although I think it does to some extent), but because the US government  is at least held accountable by the electorate and can be criticised in the media, including the internet. That is not true of the other two major powers.
It is not perfect. But it is massively better than nothing.

In essence, when it comes to those actions, no. Changing parties or being allowed to criticize (to some extent, see increasing bans/media conformity/shunning) makes no difference. You can actually see the interests converge along party lines.

The only accountability is to vote them out? That has no effect on those actions performed with impunity while in office. And every time, after the fact, we can say: well, something should have happened, but didn't.

You can't bitch about/extol international law when you mostly ignore it at will.

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