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Baseball, anyone? - Proclivities - Jul 30, 2021 - 7:15am
 
Health Care - miamizsun - Jul 30, 2021 - 6:55am
 
TV shows you watch - maryte - Jul 30, 2021 - 6:35am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - miamizsun - Jul 30, 2021 - 6:24am
 
Automotive Lust - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Jul 30, 2021 - 6:21am
 
The Rpeeps Favorite Guitarists Thread - sirdroseph - Jul 30, 2021 - 4:49am
 
ISO Android app usage guide - kbs - Jul 30, 2021 - 3:45am
 
Little known information...maybe even facts - haresfur - Jul 30, 2021 - 2:20am
 
Surfing! - whatshisname - Jul 29, 2021 - 11:14pm
 
COVID-19 - kurtster - Jul 29, 2021 - 8:24pm
 
What is the meaning of this? - oldviolin - Jul 29, 2021 - 8:06pm
 
The Obituary Page - Steely_D - Jul 29, 2021 - 7:51pm
 
Counting with Pictures - ScottN - Jul 29, 2021 - 7:28pm
 
Talk Behind Their Backs Forum - Manbird - Jul 29, 2021 - 7:18pm
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - halogen - Jul 29, 2021 - 3:51pm
 
Zappa - black321 - Jul 29, 2021 - 1:56pm
 
Environment - R_P - Jul 29, 2021 - 1:40pm
 
Back to the 70's - ColdMiser - Jul 29, 2021 - 12:58pm
 
All Dogs Go To Heaven - Dog Pix - black321 - Jul 29, 2021 - 12:46pm
 
Race in America - R_P - Jul 29, 2021 - 11:46am
 
Hot Dog... it's Summer! - Proclivities - Jul 29, 2021 - 10:54am
 
Things You Thought Today - rhahl - Jul 29, 2021 - 10:47am
 
Music documentaries - Ohmsen - Jul 29, 2021 - 10:02am
 
Capitalism and Consumerism... now what? - black321 - Jul 29, 2021 - 8:47am
 
Philosophy (Meaty Metaphysical Munchables!) - sirdroseph - Jul 29, 2021 - 7:57am
 
That's good advice - sirdroseph - Jul 29, 2021 - 4:46am
 
Derplahoma! - ScottFromWyoming - Jul 28, 2021 - 10:39pm
 
RightWingNutZ - Red_Dragon - Jul 28, 2021 - 6:11pm
 
The Military Industrial Complex - westslope - Jul 28, 2021 - 5:36pm
 
Great Old Songs You Rarely Hear Anymore - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 28, 2021 - 4:07pm
 
Celebrity Deaths - _Bruce_ - Jul 28, 2021 - 3:51pm
 
Tech & Science - Red_Dragon - Jul 28, 2021 - 3:42pm
 
What did you have for lunch? - oldviolin - Jul 28, 2021 - 1:32pm
 
Live Music - R_P - Jul 28, 2021 - 12:42pm
 
~ Have a good joke you can post? ~ - oldviolin - Jul 28, 2021 - 8:27am
 
how do you feel right now? - Antigone - Jul 28, 2021 - 8:22am
 
Today in History - ColdMiser - Jul 28, 2021 - 6:51am
 
The Chomsky / Zinn Reader - rhahl - Jul 28, 2021 - 6:32am
 
Poetry Forum - ScottN - Jul 28, 2021 - 6:09am
 
Living in America - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Jul 27, 2021 - 11:04pm
 
• • • BRING OUT YOUR DEAD • • •  - oldviolin - Jul 27, 2021 - 8:35pm
 
Trump - Red_Dragon - Jul 27, 2021 - 4:58pm
 
Photos you have taken of your walks or hikes. - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 27, 2021 - 4:47pm
 
HALF A WORLD - Ohmsen - Jul 27, 2021 - 3:48pm
 
I swing therefore I am. - rhahl - Jul 27, 2021 - 12:46pm
 
Beer - the_jake - Jul 27, 2021 - 10:29am
 
Olympics - Is anybody interested - sirdroseph - Jul 27, 2021 - 9:10am
 
MQA Stream Coming to BLUOS - Cebolla - Jul 27, 2021 - 9:00am
 
Mixtape Culture Club - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 26, 2021 - 9:23pm
 
One Reason I Don't Trust the Police - Red_Dragon - Jul 26, 2021 - 7:54pm
 
KUDOS for BillG - kenmo - Jul 26, 2021 - 4:34pm
 
Climate Change - Red_Dragon - Jul 26, 2021 - 3:48pm
 
Get the Quote - Proclivities - Jul 26, 2021 - 1:02pm
 
Gotta Get Your Drink On - haresfur - Jul 25, 2021 - 8:14pm
 
Fake News*  ?  ! - R_P - Jul 25, 2021 - 5:04pm
 
Lyrics that strike a chord today... - Steely_D - Jul 25, 2021 - 2:40pm
 
Nobel Prize Literature - rhahl - Jul 25, 2021 - 2:36pm
 
Comics! - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 25, 2021 - 2:01pm
 
Name My Band - oldviolin - Jul 25, 2021 - 11:40am
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - oldviolin - Jul 25, 2021 - 11:35am
 
It's fine - rhahl - Jul 25, 2021 - 9:34am
 
Property rights and violence in the USA - westslope - Jul 25, 2021 - 9:27am
 
• • •  What's For Dinner ? • • •  - Antigone - Jul 25, 2021 - 4:32am
 
Bob Dylan - Steely_D - Jul 24, 2021 - 10:58pm
 
Outstanding Covers - Steely_D - Jul 24, 2021 - 10:41pm
 
The Future is here! - Red_Dragon - Jul 24, 2021 - 4:58pm
 
DQ (as in 'Daily Quote') - Manbird - Jul 24, 2021 - 2:40pm
 
Getting disconnected/paused at bumper time - coding_to_music - Jul 24, 2021 - 11:41am
 
Drones - Prodigal_SOB - Jul 24, 2021 - 11:37am
 
Webcasting rates going up again cry - kenmo - Jul 24, 2021 - 9:56am
 
punk? hip-hop? metal? noise? garage? - sirdroseph - Jul 24, 2021 - 6:14am
 
The War On You - sirdroseph - Jul 24, 2021 - 5:25am
 
Media Bias - sirdroseph - Jul 24, 2021 - 5:16am
 
LeftWingNutZ - sirdroseph - Jul 24, 2021 - 5:09am
 
Joe Biden - sirdroseph - Jul 24, 2021 - 5:02am
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Climate Change Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 108, 109, 110  Next
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Red_Dragon

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Posted: Jul 26, 2021 - 3:48pm

Warming rivers in US West killing fish, imperiling industry
R_P

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Posted: Jul 24, 2021 - 11:24am

Apocalypse Right Now

“Everything we worried about is happening, and it’s all happening at the high end of projections, even faster than the previous most pessimistic estimates,” John Holdren, a professor of environmental policy at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, contended in an interview with The Los Angeles Times.

It may be too late for negotiating incremental change. We just went through four years of proudly unscientific Donald Trump, who once told me, “I’m not a believer in man-made climate change.” (Who can forget when he attacked Greta Thunberg and told her to “chill!”) As the planet sizzles, many Americans have gone from not caring to glazing over, from indifference to fatigue. (...)

There have been spots of progress. Antediluvian Republicans can no longer destroy opponents who worry about climate change by mocking them as sandal-wearing tree-huggers. (...)

But there are still plenty of Republicans shilling for Big Oil and pushing back against climate change provisions in the big legislation before Congress. As we go through the debilitating politics of Covid, we have to go through the debilitating politics of the environment. Scary plagues are ravaging the planet while drivelers drivel.

Some hope technology can save us. (...)

R_P

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Posted: Jul 23, 2021 - 3:56pm

Another view from those tribal climate scientists:
Shellenberger’s op-ad
This is a deep dive into the form and substance of Michael Shellenberger’s promotion for his new book “Apocalypse Never”. Shorter version? It should be read as a sales pitch to a certain tribe demographic rather than a genuine apology. (As one might guess from the title)

More interestingly, some skinny on climate tribalism, which helps explain the focus on environmental activists.*
westslope

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Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Jul 23, 2021 - 12:18pm

FWIW, I am not at all worried about resident (i.e., non-migratory) trout, charr and other freshwater fish here or in Montana.  Some will die.  But some have been dying during summer heat waves every so often when most of the public was never paying attention.

I am a little worried about poor marine survival of migratory salmonids and the warm Blob of water in the Pacific Ocean.   It could be driven or at least exacerbated by anthropogenic climate change.  

The big worry is that the virtuous, exceptional Americans are not taking climate seriously.   Then they are not taking their own health outcomes seriously so things are looking pretty bleak.  
westslope

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Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Jul 23, 2021 - 12:13pm

 R_P wrote:

Which Mars rover took that picture?


I did.  From a roadside stop on Highway 1.



R_P

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Posted: Jul 23, 2021 - 11:52am

 westslope wrote:
This is a photo of a very famous salmon, steelhead and trout river not too far from where we live.

Which Mars rover took that picture?
westslope

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Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Jul 23, 2021 - 11:44am


This is a photo of a very famous salmon, steelhead and trout river not too far from where we live.

20210720_174831_1




R_P

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Posted: Jul 23, 2021 - 11:09am

Montana’s Famed Trout Under Threat as Drought Intensifies
The state is imposing more restrictions on fishing this year as the combination of extreme conditions, including low river levels, fish die-offs and the crush of anglers, poses long-term problems.
Few places in the world rival Montana’s fly fishing, and the state’s cold, clear mountain streams are renowned for their large populations of trout, especially the rainbow and brown.

But this is a drought year, and a confluence of extreme conditions now threatens the state’s legendary waters. Higher temperatures early in the year, worryingly low river levels, fish die-offs and pressure from the crush of anglers yearning to recapture a year lost to the pandemic have swirled into a growing crisis.

This week the state announced a slate of new restrictions, including outright closures, for some of the top trout streams.

And a new coalition of businesses, fly fishing guides and environmentalists warned that the severe drought may not be a temporary problem and that the state’s fisheries could be nearing collapse.

The coalition, which includes Orvis, the fly fishing company, and the clothing manufacturer Patagonia, sent Gov. Greg Gianforte a letter Wednesday seeking the creation of a task force to address the decline of the fisheries.

“Between early season fish kills, unnaturally warm water temperatures and low trout numbers, it’s an all hands on deck moment,” said John Arnold, owner of Headhunters Fly Shop in Craig, along the Missouri River, one of the state’s premier fisheries. (...)

sirdroseph

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Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 21, 2021 - 6:41am

rhahl

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Posted: Jul 20, 2021 - 10:52am

 haresfur wrote:
A few years ago they were making a big deal about smoke taint in wine here and Napa and a good part of the rest of the western US was burning up so it is interesting that this is the first time I've heard it hitting the news. There is some interesting chemistry behind it and you can't just wash the smoke off the grapes. Really makes the wine taste disgusting. 
 
No problem, distill it once and call it single malt Scotch. Nobody will notice.
R_P

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Posted: Jul 20, 2021 - 10:46am

Why is the sun red? Wildfire smoke from a continent away spreads to New York
haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 18, 2021 - 2:26pm

 R_P wrote:
Scorched, Parched and Now Uninsurable: Climate Change Hits Wine Country
If any nook of American agriculture has the means and incentive to outwit the climate crisis, it is Napa Valley. But so far, vineyards here show the limits of adapting to a warming planet.
Last September, a wildfire tore through one of Dario Sattui’s Napa Valley wineries, destroying millions of dollars in property and equipment, along with 9,000 cases of wine.

November brought a second disaster: Mr. Sattui realized the precious crop of cabernet grapes that survived the fire had been ruined by the smoke. There would be no 2020 vintage.

A freakishly dry winter led to a third calamity: By spring, the reservoir at another of Mr. Sattui’s vineyards was all but empty, meaning little water to irrigate the new crop.

Finally, in March, came a fourth blow: Mr. Sattui’s insurers said they would no longer cover the winery that had burned down. Neither would any other company. In the patois of insurance, the winery will go bare into this year’s burning season, which experts predict to be especially fierce.

“We got hit every which way we could,” Mr. Sattui said. “We can’t keep going like this.” (...)



A few years ago they were making a big deal about smoke taint in wine here and Napa and a good part of the rest of the western US was burning up so it is interesting that this is the first time I've heard it hitting the news. There is some interesting chemistry behind it and you can't just wash the smoke off the grapes. Really makes the wine taste disgusting. 
R_P

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Posted: Jul 18, 2021 - 12:09pm

Scorched, Parched and Now Uninsurable: Climate Change Hits Wine Country
If any nook of American agriculture has the means and incentive to outwit the climate crisis, it is Napa Valley. But so far, vineyards here show the limits of adapting to a warming planet.
Last September, a wildfire tore through one of Dario Sattui’s Napa Valley wineries, destroying millions of dollars in property and equipment, along with 9,000 cases of wine.

November brought a second disaster: Mr. Sattui realized the precious crop of cabernet grapes that survived the fire had been ruined by the smoke. There would be no 2020 vintage.

A freakishly dry winter led to a third calamity: By spring, the reservoir at another of Mr. Sattui’s vineyards was all but empty, meaning little water to irrigate the new crop.

Finally, in March, came a fourth blow: Mr. Sattui’s insurers said they would no longer cover the winery that had burned down. Neither would any other company. In the patois of insurance, the winery will go bare into this year’s burning season, which experts predict to be especially fierce.

“We got hit every which way we could,” Mr. Sattui said. “We can’t keep going like this.” (...)

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 18, 2021 - 3:25am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
a dose of critical skepticism would not go amiss here

My book club actually read Apocalypse Never, and some of the criticisms of Shellenberger's critique of climate change here are valid. Shellenberger isn't a scientist, he's an environmental activist, and he has a lot more to say about environmental activism than discussing climate change. Those parts of the book are well-informed and worth reading and discussing, but this points out a problem in the religious/tribal nature of climate change discussions: if you wade into the debate, who are you arguing with? Pointing out that the most hyperbolic and apocalyptic proponents are generally wrong will get you branded as a troglodyte tool of the oil companies. Pointing out that people denying the climate is changing are wrong with get you pigeonholed as an ecoterrorist. There is actual science being done, it's incredibly important and that signal is getting harder and harder to find among the noise of tribal warfare. I know activists in both the apocalist and denialist camps. Some of them have done actual science, generally to knock down one of those hyperbolic claims made by the opposite camp. They take a scientifically ignorant claim, demolish it, and proclaim "See? They're wrong. All of them. I proved it!" In a way they could be moving the discussion forward, but since the two camps are at war all that matters is which side you're on. The Yale review is a good example: Shellenberger is The Enemy and must be destroyed by any means necessary. Since he's clearly a denialist (sorry—Cornucopian) nothing he has to say has any validity. Yale Climate Connections focuses on climate issues, so it's not surprising they picked out that section of the book to critique. They should point out what he got wrong, but he got an awful lot right. In the book club discussion my critique started with the title: the people who should read this probably won't, because the cover of the book proclaims allegiance to the Other Tribe. That's a real pity, and does a disservice to what ought to be the goal: presenting a livable planet to our children. 
 

Ok, there's some truth in this, so let's try to strip out the polemics from the substance. I personally think he is right on these points:

  • It would have been better to continue investing in nuclear power and phase out fossil fuels faster.
  • Plastics are very difficult to substitute with other materials (not that we shouldn't keep trying to find new and better materials) and are best incinerated, rather than shipped to low-cost countries for “waste management” (i.e. dumping).
  • Some supposedly green technologies (e.g.bio-fuels or solar in the wrong place) have pretty high environmental and social costs that some within the Green movement are too quick to ignore.
  • etc.


However, he started losing me when he used selected cases of ill-guided investment in photovoltaics to rubbish the whole industry and lost me completely when he rubbished the idea of an incipient mass extinction. There comes a point when justified criticism turns into an exercise in intellectual obscurantism and for me he has crossed this line.

It's not that his criticisms of the environmental movement are unwarranted. Certainly, planning excesses or unwanted outcomes should always be taken to task. But given the pressing need to address the massive human impact on the biosphere that is happening all around us, such criticism should not be used to mask the main issues. And this is where I have doubts about his motivations, for he seems to quite willing for his criticisms to be used for a full-on assault against the environmental movement.

For example, to say that the oil industry saved the whales instead of the ban on whaling is simply perverse, even if there is some truth in it (the substitution of whale oil with crude-derivatives for instance). But there are many other reasons for killing whales using industrial methods that persist to this day, despite the fact that whale numbers of some species are highly endangered, even if some others (southern rights for example) are recovering, notably only since the ban on whaling.

Likewise to put the emphasis on there not being a mass extinction by any real count completely obscures the fact that megafauna everywhere are highly endangered except for those species we have managed to farm. The fact that there are millions of species of insects still around (whose numbers are, by the way, are falling in many sites, even if the jury is still out on just how severely) shouldn't be used to hide the fact that ecosystems are highly stressed from human impacts. To make matters worse, every mass extinction I have read about has been due to a combination of some natural disaster hitting a highly stressed environment. So even if the worst exaggerations of the alarmist environmental movement are just that, exaggerations, it doesn't mean they are totally wrong either. Do we really want to stress our natural environment to the current degree and just hope that it is all going to be ok? I'm thinking ostrich. 

This is where the charge of intellectual obscurantism becomes inescapable. The irrefutable fact is we, as a species, haven't managed to reduce our total environmental impact. In fact, it is getting worse, and we are certainly miles away from a level that is anywhere near sustainable. Yet, Shellenberger trivialises this as mere alarmism. That's not going to make the problems go away and is not really very helpful to all those baby whales and baby scallops out there, not to mention the myriad other species that are struggling with our presence.

So, yeah, tribal politics or not, Richard's charge against Shellenberger sticks. The guy appears to be quite willingly to cater to a class of intellectual that is really just championing the status-quo, seemingly because their sense of entitlement is under threat. Seems to be a pretty rich vein for him to mine and makes it kind of hard to respect his arguments, which is a pity, because he does have some valid criticisms to make. 

But apocalypse never? Seriously? I think there are a number of species out there that would be inclined to disagree, if they were still around to do so.



R_P

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Posted: Jul 17, 2021 - 1:13pm

Back to reality...

‘No One Is Safe’: Extreme Weather Batters the Wealthy World
Floods swept Germany, fires ravaged the American West and another heat wave loomed, driving home the reality that the world’s richest nations remain unprepared for the intensifying consequences of climate change.
The extreme weather disasters across Europe and North America have driven home two essential facts of science and history: The world as a whole is neither prepared to slow down climate change, nor live with it. The week’s events have now ravaged some of the world’s wealthiest nations, whose affluence has been enabled by more than a century of burning coal, oil and gas — activities that pumped the greenhouse gases into the atmosphere that are warming the world.

“I say this as a German: The idea that you could possibly die from weather is completely alien,” said Friederike Otto, a physicist at Oxford University who studies the links between extreme weather and climate change. “There’s not even a realization that adaptation is something we have to do right now. We have to save people’s lives.” (...)

The bigger question is whether the mounting disasters in the developed world will have a bearing on what the world’s most influential countries and companies will do to reduce their own emissions of planet-warming gases. They come a few months ahead of United Nations-led climate negotiations in Glasgow in November, effectively a moment of reckoning for whether the nations of the world will be able to agree on ways to rein in emissions enough to avert the worst effects of climate change.

Disasters magnified by global warming have left a long trail of death and loss across much of the developing world, after all, wiping out crops in Bangladesh, leveling villages in Honduras, and threatening the very existence of small island nations. Typhoon Haiyan devastated the Philippines in the run-up to climate talks in 2013, which prompted developing-country representatives to press for funding to deal with loss and damage they face over time for climate induced disasters that they weren’t responsible for. That was rejected by richer countries, including the United States and Europe. (...)

“We’ve got to adapt to the change we’ve already baked into the system and also avoid further change by reducing our emissions, by reducing our influence on the climate,” said Richard Betts, a climate scientist at the Met Office in Britain and a professor at the University of Exeter.

That message clearly hasn’t sunk in among policymakers, and perhaps the public as well, particularly in the developed world, which has maintained a sense of invulnerability.

The result is a lack of preparation, even in countries with resources. In the United States, flooding has killed more than 1,000 people since 2010 alone, according to federal data. In the Southwest, heat deaths have spiked in recent years.

Sometimes that is because governments have scrambled to respond to disasters they haven’t experienced before, like the heat wave in Western Canada last month, according to Jean Slick, head of the disaster and emergency management program at Royal Roads University in British Columbia. “You can have a plan, but you don’t know that it will work,” Ms. Slick said.

Other times, it’s because there aren’t political incentives to spend money on adaptation.“By the time they build new flood infrastructure in their community, they’re probably not going to be in office anymore,” said Samantha Montano, a professor of emergency management at the Massachusetts Maritime Academy. “But they are going to have to justify millions, billions of dollars being spent.”
It's fine, really.

R_P

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Posted: Jul 17, 2021 - 12:45pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
How Orwellian! I'm not part of your tribe so I must be part of The Other Tribe. Because there can only be two, you know—and denying you're part of a tribe is just the sort of thing that tribe would do.

I think you've made both our points.

You know the drill. If it talks like that tribe, and walks like that tribe...

Lazy8

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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 17, 2021 - 12:36pm

 R_P wrote:
Hence your defense...

In short, these new books truly deserve their place on the bookshelf among other classic examples of political propaganda.

How Orwellian! I'm not part of your tribe so I must be part of The Other Tribe. Because there can only be two, you know—and denying you're part of a tribe is just the sort of thing that tribe would do.

I think you've made both our points.

R_P

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Posted: Jul 17, 2021 - 11:42am

 Lazy8 wrote:
which was kind of my point: this isn't about substance, it's about tribal loyalty.

Hence your defense...
In short, these new books truly deserve their place on the bookshelf among other classic examples of political propaganda.

westslope

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Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Jul 17, 2021 - 9:28am

 R_P wrote:

......

Accusations of alarmism have only been around for 60-70 years...

Yup.  Sometimes, I wish the alarmists would better coordinate.    Will we be all dead in 12 years or is that 20 years?  Both were being bandied about in the last federal election.

And if Dr. Suzuki's predictions to BC high school students in the 1980s have turned out to not pan out, should we give him and his organizations more money and more accolades?  

Personally, I view the hyperbole as fundamentally anti-democratic but quite frankly do mendacious Canadian scientists and activists really care?  

Lying and deceiving fellow citizens seems to be quite acceptable behaviour, it just depends on whose interests are being promoted.  Funny thing is that even smart dudes like Dr. Suzuki fail to recognize how their popular virtue-signalling policies hammer First Nations.  
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Jul 17, 2021 - 7:11am

Great Salt Lake is shrinking fast. Scientists demand action before it becomes a toxic dustbin
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