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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Looting & vandalism isn't protest Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 10, 11, 12  Next
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kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 7, 2020 - 3:44am

 kcar wrote:


 kurtster wrote:

We have a dead person by way of a protest under police supervision.
 

Did the driver hit the protesters because of some animus he held towards the Black Femme Movement? Or was this a case of a reckless driver who ignored barricades and unintentionally killed a woman through his negligence?  

My hunch is the latter situation, but we don't know enough now to make a firm judgment. In my opinion, this is not a replay of the killing in Charlottesville, VA in 2017
 
I offered up that same thought when I initially brought this up and the very first reaction to my thought was by our friend the dragon and he said in no uncertain terms that is was deliberate and outright murder and just like Charlottesville.  And there was a second thought supporting that.  It kinda got me leaning that way based on their certainty and information presented. It involves a BLM ish protest group and the police.  So how could this not be something deliberate, an outright act of murder ?

Now I have you agreeing with my original thought.  How can that be ?

I give up.  Go backscroll and look at the beginning.  You're all on the same side of the political aisle.  Y'all have to get your stories straight. 
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Jul 7, 2020 - 1:19am



 kurtster wrote:

We have a dead person by way of a protest under police supervision.
 

Did the driver hit the protesters because of some animus he held towards the Black Femme Movement? Or was this a case of a reckless driver who ignored barricades and unintentionally killed a woman through his negligence?  

My hunch is the latter situation, but we don't know enough now to make a firm judgment. In my opinion, this is not a replay of the killing in Charlottesville, VA in 2017
kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 7, 2020 - 12:06am

 kcar wrote:


I have to ask: given what we know so far, how is this incident anything more than spectacle? 
 
We have a dead person by way of a protest under police supervision.
kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 7, 2020 - 12:01am

 Steely_D wrote:

I live right next to Martinez, FWIW. 

Trump says these folks should be convicted and sentenced to 10 years. LAW AND ORDER!
 
I know the area as well.

Yep, lock em up.
Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 6, 2020 - 11:14pm



 rgio wrote:


 kurtster wrote:
 
I bet they were arrested for defacing graffiti ... 

What happened to your av ?  You look burnt out.

You need to get to a doc, STAT ... 
{#Mrgreen}
 
Kurt...sorry if I don't follow.

Assuming that the city approved the painting of the street, are you supporting someone unilaterally deciding to paint over it?  Do you assume / know that someone painted it without approval?

 
I live right next to Martinez, FWIW. 

Trump says these folks should be convicted and sentenced to 10 years. LAW AND ORDER!


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jul 6, 2020 - 10:48pm

 kurtster wrote:
Yellow Paint Matters!
Meanwhile, a King County Sheriff’s Office deputy was placed on administrative leave after making what the Sheriff’s Office described as “concerning posts” on social media over the weekend.

Screenshots shared on social media showed a post under the name Mike Brown; the Sheriff’s Office confirmed Brown is a detective. The screenshots captured a Facebook post with an image that read “All lives splatter” — accompanied by a graphic of a vehicle running people over. “Keep your (expletive) off the road,” the graphic continued.

“We value all members of our community and are committed to serving everyone equally, with dignity and respect,” Sheriff Mitzi Johanknecht wrote in a statement Monday. “I will take swift action to thoroughly investigate when the conduct of Sheriff’s Office members fails to reflect our core values and violates Sheriff’s Office policy.”

The office is also investigating other employees who “may have participated via reactions or comments on the post,” the statement said.

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Jul 6, 2020 - 10:47pm



 kurtster wrote:

Well, there you have it.  I guess that it is more urgent to you than me.

I did say the couple should be arrested if true didn't I ?

I guess that the Martinez PD aren't looking too hard or they would have found them by now. 

They have a good license plate number to work with.  But Martinez is in the SF Bay Area ...

So what is your take on the freeway thing in Seattle ?  Hate crime ?
 

"So what is your take on the freeway thing in Seattle ? Hate crime ?"


As you put it, "I guess that it is more urgent to you than me."

As I've posted before, I don't bother with this thread very much because it focuses on the incidental and inevitable mayhem caused by impromptu protests and riots.

There are more important aspects of the protests to think about. As a piece in the NYT noted, "Black Lives Matter May Be the Largest Movement in U.S. History."  



The recent Black Lives Matter protests peaked on June 6, when half a million people turned out in nearly 550 places across the United States. That was a single day in more than a month of protests that still continue to today.

Four recent polls — including one released this week by Civis Analytics, a data science firm that works with businesses and Democratic campaigns — suggest that about 15 million to 26 million people in the United States have participated in demonstrations over the death of George Floyd and others in recent weeks.

These figures would make the recent protests the largest movement in the country’s history, according to interviews with scholars and crowd-counting experts.




I think the reasons for the protests are a far bigger and more enduring issue than looting, mayhem, etc. It's a small miracle when even organized protests occur without incident. If you focus on smashed windows, fights, in-riot shootings by and of police, etc. you are ignoring a massive sea-change in Americans' attitudes about race, oppression of Blacks, the insufficient controls on the use of violence by police, etc. 


My take on Seattle CHOP for instance: a goofy idea that failed to maintain peace and order in practice within that area of Seattle. 




No one is going to be talking about Seattle CHOP come November. BLM will be a significant issue in the presidential election and national politics for years to come. 



As for the Seattle freeway incident. Are you talking about this? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42p07roNS2Y

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/2-people-hit-by-car-on-i-5-in-downtown-seattle-during-protest/

https://www.tampabay.com/news/2020/07/04/police-2-women-hit-by-car-on-seattle-highway-amid-protest/


I doubt it's a hate crime. After skimming the Seattle Times piece, it seems to me that the driver was trying to evade blockades so he could drive on the freeway. I don't think he knew that there were protesters dancing on the freeway. He apparently swerved to avoid a crowd of people and in doing so hit two protesters. 

Dawit Kelete, the driver, is black. The protesters he struck were white. The group of protesters was called the Black Femme Movement. It seems from the article that the group's decision to dance on the freeway was not planned out in advance. It's not clear from The Seattle Times piece that Kelete knew which group was on the freeway or that there was a group on the freeway until they came into his sight. 

So I don't see this as a hate crime. I could be quite wrong but there it is. 

From the Tampa Bay Times piece: 


Officials were trying to determine the motive as well as where he got onto the interstate, which had been closed by the state patrol for more than an hour before the protesters were hit. Mead said they suspect Kelete drove the wrong way on a ramp. Trooper Rick Johnson said the driver went through a barrier that closed the freeway.

Troopers did not know whether it was a targeted attack, but impairment was not considered a factor, Mead said.



From the Seattle Times piece: from what I can tell, the I-5 is the "insterstate" and the "freeway" in both news articles:


State Patrol had shut down the interstate 19 nights in a row in response to protests, said Capt. Mead, who oversees the agency’s district that includes King County. For weeks, troopers operated in response to protesters’ movements, shutting down a stretch of the interstate when it looked as if protesters would enter the roadway.





I have to ask: given what we know so far, how is this incident anything more than spectacle? 


kurtster

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 6, 2020 - 10:06pm

 kcar wrote:
How 'bout that Google thingy! Yes, the Black Lives Matter mural was painted with the permission and cooperation of the city government of Martinez, CA. 
 
Well, there you have it.  I guess that it is more urgent to you than me.

I did say the couple should be arrested if true didn't I ?

I guess that the Martinez PD aren't looking too hard or they would have found them by now. 

They have a good license plate number to work with.  But Martinez is in the SF Bay Area ...

So what is your take on the freeway thing in Seattle ?  Hate crime ?
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Jul 6, 2020 - 9:33pm



 kurtster wrote:
 

How 'bout that Google thingy! Yes, the Black Lives Matter mural was painted with the permission and cooperation of the city government of Martinez, CA. 


Police Seek 2 White People Who Were Seen Vandalizing Black Lives Matter Mural


The police in Martinez, Calif., said on Sunday that they were seeking two white people who were seen vandalizing a Black Lives Matter mural less than an hour after it was painted in front of a local courthouse on Saturday.

“The community spent a considerable amount of time putting the mural together only to have it painted over in a hateful and senseless manner,” Chief Manjit Sappal of the Martinez Police Department said in a statement. “The city of Martinez values tolerance, and the damage to the mural was divisive and hurtful.”

Videos posted on social media show a white woman using a roller with black paint to cover the letters B and L in “Black Lives Matter,” while a white man records onlookers yelling for them to stop.

The mural, in yellow paint in the middle of a city street, spelled out “Black Lives Matter” in capital letters.

...

The man, who can be seen in a video wearing a red cap and a red shirt that reads “Trump” and “Four More Years,” can be heard saying: “We’re sick of this narrative” and “The narrative of police brutality, the narrative of oppression, the narrative of racism. It’s a lie. It’s a lie.”

...

The mural was painted on a one-block stretch of Court Street in Martinez, which is about 35 miles northeast of San Francisco. The city selected the location after Mr. Gomez, the lead organizer for Martizians for Black Lives, asked the city for permission to paint the message, he said.

“We asked to do it on our city’s main street,” Mr. Gomez said. The city, he said, offered the street in front of the Wakefield Taylor Courthouse instead.


“We immediately agreed to it,” he said, “and I feel it was a more powerful statement than what we had initially proposed.”

Mr. Gomez and local residents started painting the mural at 7 a.m. on Saturday; by 2:30 p.m., with the paint still drying, he left.

By 3 p.m., Mr. Gomez said, he received messages saying the mural was being vandalized.

Mr. Gomez said that the mural had since been restored and that supporters were “maintaining a presence” to prevent further damage.


From CNN: 


By the time police arrived at the scene, the man and the woman were gone, police said. Police are looking for a Nissan pickup truck with the word "NICOLE" painted in silver, which was provided by a witness. The man approached the vehicle while the video was being filmed.The case is being investigated and police are asking the public's help in identifying the man and the woman seen in the video."The community spent a considerable amount of time putting the mural together only to have it painted over in a hateful and senseless manner," Chief Sappal said. "The City of Martinez values tolerance and the damage to the mural was divisive and hurtful."
    The mural was repainted after the incident, according to CNN affiliate KPIX. The area was blocked off and the mural was surrounded by chalk images, as of Sunday afternoon, KPIX reported.In an unrelated incident Sunday, a man was arrested for shouting "all lives matter" and pulling a gun on a young man looking at the same Black Lives Matter mural, according to CNN affiliate KGO.


    kurtster

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    Gender: Male


    Posted: Jul 6, 2020 - 7:48pm

     rgio wrote:

     
    Kurt...sorry if I don't follow.

    Assuming that the city approved the painting of the street, are you supporting someone unilaterally deciding to paint over it?  Do you assume / know that someone painted it without approval?

     
    It was sarcasm directed at my friend and his motives.  I don't know where the video was taken so I don't know anything about any of it.  If it was put there with city approval, then the couple can be arrested.  And they should be arrested if that is the case.  If not, then who knows.  You seem to be willing to assume that the city approved the street painting. Why ?  What insight do you have ?  Me, just by looking at how the B is painted over the STOP on the street at the limit line has me inclined to think that it was done without anyone's approval.  If it was approved and supervised the traffic marking would not have been painted over.

    It is hard to tell what is approved and what is not.  Such as who knew that the City of Seattle would actually approve the repeated closure of an Interstate, and not just any Interstate, it was I-5, the main road from border to border on the west coast.  Same as I-95 is in the east.  And now we have dead people as a direct result of the actions by the City of Seattle.  On the Interstate and in the CHAZ or CHOP depending on your preferences.

    Nothing is making any sense anywhere, anymore.  We have real anarchy.

    For extra credit :  Is all this yellow paint being put down on the city streets for these BLM markings approved safety paint for use on the street ?  I hope so because if not, when it gets wet or snow covered, cars are going to lose traction when braking and people are going to get run over by out of control vehicles unable to stop because of the slippery paint.  But of course, virtue signaling comes ahead of public safety, right ?

    For extra, extra credit :  Did you know that yellow is one of the more expensive colors of paint to make because of the pigments needed ?  That is one reason you have seen the trend where government work vehicles and things like Ryder trucks are now painted white instead of yellow.
    R_P

    R_P Avatar



    Posted: Jul 6, 2020 - 6:45pm

    They all look sound alike...
    “The man, who was wearing a red shirt that read “Trump Four More Years,” said they were tired of “the narrative of oppression.”

    “There is no oppression, there is no racism,” the man said, while holding his phone up. “It’s a leftist lie. It’s a lie from the media, the liberal left.”

    rgio

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    Location: West Jersey
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    Posted: Jul 6, 2020 - 6:22pm



     kurtster wrote:
     
    I bet they were arrested for defacing graffiti ... 

    What happened to your av ?  You look burnt out.

    You need to get to a doc, STAT ... 
    {#Mrgreen}
     
    Kurt...sorry if I don't follow.

    Assuming that the city approved the painting of the street, are you supporting someone unilaterally deciding to paint over it?  Do you assume / know that someone painted it without approval?

    kurtster

    kurtster Avatar

    Location: drifting
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    Posted: Jul 6, 2020 - 5:34pm

    Agent Orange wrote:
     
    I bet they were arrested for defacing graffiti ... 

    What happened to your av ?  You look burnt out.

    You need to get to a doc, STAT ... {#Mrgreen}
    R_P

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    Posted: Jul 6, 2020 - 12:14pm


    kurtster

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    Posted: Jul 5, 2020 - 11:09pm

     Steely_D wrote:


     Red_Dragon wrote:
    italics mine
    This is not like Charlottesville where someone deliberately went after a group of protesters on a street trying to cause harm. At this point in time I would have a hard time thinking that the driver in Seattle saw these people while going the other way, got off at the next exit and got back on to go run over some people. It is possible though. That would be appalling at all levels if that was the case. I do believe that a split second decision was involved, one way or the other.
     

    The road was CLOSED. This was deliberate. The person is a goddam murderer.
     

    Correct. I don't think that protestors should block the freeway, but this is what happened:

    Dawit Kelete of Seattle drove the car around vehicles that were blocking I-5 and sped into the crowd about 1:40 a.m., according to a police report released by the Washington State Patrol. Video taken at the scene by protesters showed people shouting "Car! Car!" before fleeing the roadway.


    That's intention, which is homicide. And, kurtster, I agree with you - it's appalling at all levels.
     
    So the police closed the Interstate and allowed the protesters to be there.  The driver went around police cars blocking the ramp he got on at and then drove down to where the protesters were ?  Is that what happened ?  Why did the police allow him to get on the freeway then and not chase him after he broke through their barrier ?

    I did some searching and have yet to find out how exactly the police closed down the Interstate to traffic.  That information seems to be missing.

    But if the police allowed the protesters on the freeway, then the police department is directly responsible for not protecting the protesters and allowing this to happen.

    I did find some stuff about the driver and his victims though ... I will be following up on this one to see where it goes.  It does seem to be a deliberate act on the driver's part.

    Ironic.  Black man murders white Black Lives Matters protesters.  Hate crime as well.

    Dawit Kelete Accused of Running Over Seattle Protesters
    Steely_D

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    Location: Biscayne Bay
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    Posted: Jul 5, 2020 - 4:41pm



     Red_Dragon wrote:
    italics mine
    This is not like Charlottesville where someone deliberately went after a group of protesters on a street trying to cause harm. At this point in time I would have a hard time thinking that the driver in Seattle saw these people while going the other way, got off at the next exit and got back on to go run over some people. It is possible though. That would be appalling at all levels if that was the case. I do believe that a split second decision was involved, one way or the other.
     

    The road was CLOSED. This was deliberate. The person is a goddam murderer.
     

    Correct. I don't think that protestors should block the freeway, but this is what happened:

    Dawit Kelete of Seattle drove the car around vehicles that were blocking I-5 and sped into the crowd about 1:40 a.m., according to a police report released by the Washington State Patrol. Video taken at the scene by protesters showed people shouting "Car! Car!" before fleeing the roadway.


    That's intention, which is homicide. And, kurtster, I agree with you - it's appalling at all levels.
    Red_Dragon

    Red_Dragon Avatar



    Posted: Jul 5, 2020 - 4:05pm



     kurtster wrote:
    This has been bothering me an awful lot since I first became aware of it ...

    The incident on the Seattle freeway that was blocked by protesters and a motorist running into two of them, one of which has since died.

    I have seen the video several times.

    I do not know or claim to know what was in the mind of any of those involved, but it is time to talk about theses things because this is going to become more common as the days pass.

    So these protesters are pissed off enough to walk onto an Interstate highway after midnight wearing dark clothing, block it with vehicles and bodily occupy the adjoining lanes.

    Do they also expect that they will not be hit by passing cars ?  More importantly, do they expect a right not to be run over ?

    So what about a passing driver ?  What expectations and what rights do they have when lawfully operating a motor vehicle on a Federal Interstate highway ?

    There are two possible scenarios with the driver.  Either he didn't see them in time to react and was fearful for his life or was he just as pissed off as the protesters and decided to teach them a lesson or two ?

    Personally, back in the 70's and 80's as a route driver in a tough town, I long ago made the conclusion that if I ever got in a situation where pedestrians deliberately blocked my passage or tried to surround my vehicle, somebody was going to get run over.  I was not going to find out what was in the minds of these people.  Of course I would head to a cop shop immediately and report it, not flee and hide.  Back then, the Cleveland Police told people that were traveling in certain neighborhoods in the wee hours of the morning to treat a red light like a stop sign and keep moving.  But I have already thought about the scenario in Seattle many, many times over the years just being a professional driver.  That is why this is bothering me so much.

    Now we have anarchy in this city (Seattle and now others) and the police are no longer part of the equation when it comes to a mob vs. someone in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    So does being pissed off to a certain degree give someone the right to break the law and expect no harm or consequences in so doing ?  Finally, someone got crushed by a statue they were pulling down.  Too bad, so sad.

    But this is different.  Unless the driver in Seattle was pissed off enough to run over protesters was instead confronted with a life threatening situation and had to make an immediate decision, him or them ?  My sympathy lies with the driver.  The protesters broke the law just being on an Interstate as pedestrians.  They then created a life threatening hazard with a barricade in the middle of an Interstate Highway, that not only being hidden in the dark, gives very little time to react at lawful speeds.  What if the driver ran into the vehicles blocking the Interstate, crashed and died.  Then what ?  Who is responsible for their death and what happens to the protesters who erected the barricade and occupied the freeway ?  Nothing, would be my first guess ...

    This is not like Charlottesville where someone deliberately went after a group of protesters on a street trying to cause harm.  At this point in time I would have a hard time thinking that the driver in Seattle saw these people while going the other way, got off at the next exit and got back on to go run over some people.  It is possible though.  That would be appalling at all levels if that was the case.  I do believe that a split second decision was involved, one way or the other.

    Anyone who lives in a large urban area has the potential to have to face this decision.  No one should ever have to make this decision and would not, if the protesters were acting lawfully.  But here we are.

    ymwv ...

     

    The road was CLOSED. This was deliberate. The person is a goddam murderer.
    kurtster

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    Posted: Jul 5, 2020 - 2:28pm

    This has been bothering me an awful lot since I first became aware of it ...

    The incident on the Seattle freeway that was blocked by protesters and a motorist running into two of them, one of which has since died.

    I have seen the video several times.

    I do not know or claim to know what was in the mind of any of those involved, but it is time to talk about theses things because this is going to become more common as the days pass.

    So these protesters are pissed off enough to walk onto an Interstate highway after midnight wearing dark clothing, block it with vehicles and bodily occupy the adjoining lanes.

    Do they also expect that they will not be hit by passing cars ?  More importantly, do they expect a right not to be run over ?

    So what about a passing driver ?  What expectations and what rights do they have when lawfully operating a motor vehicle on a Federal Interstate highway ?

    There are two possible scenarios with the driver.  Either he didn't see them in time to react and was fearful for his life or was he just as pissed off as the protesters and decided to teach them a lesson or two ?

    Personally, back in the 70's and 80's as a route driver in a tough town, I long ago made the conclusion that if I ever got in a situation where pedestrians deliberately blocked my passage or tried to surround my vehicle, somebody was going to get run over.  I was not going to find out what was in the minds of these people.  Of course I would head to a cop shop immediately and report it, not flee and hide.  Back then, the Cleveland Police told people that were traveling in certain neighborhoods in the wee hours of the morning to treat a red light like a stop sign and keep moving.  But I have already thought about the scenario in Seattle many, many times over the years just being a professional driver.  That is why this is bothering me so much.

    Now we have anarchy in this city (Seattle and now others) and the police are no longer part of the equation when it comes to a mob vs. someone in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    So does being pissed off to a certain degree give someone the right to break the law and expect no harm or consequences in so doing ?  Finally, someone got crushed by a statue they were pulling down.  Too bad, so sad.

    But this is different.  Unless the driver in Seattle was pissed off enough to run over protesters was instead confronted with a life threatening situation and had to make an immediate decision, him or them ?  My sympathy lies with the driver.  The protesters broke the law just being on an Interstate as pedestrians.  They then created a life threatening hazard with a barricade in the middle of an Interstate Highway, that not only being hidden in the dark, gives very little time to react at lawful speeds.  What if the driver ran into the vehicles blocking the Interstate, crashed and died.  Then what ?  Who is responsible for their death and what happens to the protesters who erected the barricade and occupied the freeway ?  Nothing, would be my first guess ...

    This is not like Charlottesville where someone deliberately went after a group of protesters on a street trying to cause harm.  At this point in time I would have a hard time thinking that the driver in Seattle saw these people while going the other way, got off at the next exit and got back on to go run over some people.  It is possible though.  That would be appalling at all levels if that was the case.  I do believe that a split second decision was involved, one way or the other.

    Anyone who lives in a large urban area has the potential to have to face this decision.  No one should ever have to make this decision and would not, if the protesters were acting lawfully.  But here we are.

    ymwv ...

    Steely_D

    Steely_D Avatar

    Location: Biscayne Bay
    Gender: Male


    Posted: Jul 5, 2020 - 9:18am


    Isabeau

    Isabeau Avatar

    Location: sou' tex
    Gender: Female


    Posted: Jul 5, 2020 - 8:27am

    Remember Charlottesville, where a woman was KILLED by a 'very fine' white Supremacist?
    Have yet to read of Antifa Killing anyone.
    Hell, we've got Governors and a President who are allowing people to DIE from politicizing a savage virus through denial and incompetence.
    Spare us the Selective Outrage and Hopscotch Morality.
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