Prior to the Vogue cover, I recall seeing a photo of Ms. Eilish wearing an uncharacteristically tight t-shirt and pants suit.
Being an older obnoxious Uncle type, this is what I thought:
"Oh boy, is she overweight and in poor physical condition. Her health status will impede her ability to cope with the stress that comes with that level of stardom." The fact that she might have a larger 'frame' than other women is not the issue.
Please recall that many successful artists whose careers span many decades without interruption actively take care of themselves. They regularly exercise and they either avoid or minimize recreational drug consumption.
I know I am in hot water here because so many seem to not care too much about health outcomes but do care a lot about physical appearance, vanity and the potential to seduce. So-called Fat shaming is bad, especially for women.
I agree that ridiculing folks, especially women, due to physical appearance is gratuitously nasty. Unfortunately if you comment on poor health conditions and their consequences, one is also accused of 'fat shaming'. What has celebrity narcissism-obsessed North America come to?
Is poor stress management and later on decades of chronic pain no longer an issue because modern opioids are so good at smothering pain?
On the bright side, I am heartened to see more and more young and older North American women regularly exercise be it swimming, running, bicycling and/or using weights. I do not have any data on this but my intuition from the 'street' is that mentally and physically strong and self-confident women are much safer than their peers.
Nobody bothers women and smaller men in my presence. Nobody. In that regard, I have known lots and lots of men just like me. A few women too. Problem is that men who are like that as well as powerful women cannot be there all the time.
Yes indeed rgio. WHAT THE FUCK!?!! Are you having trouble reading? Or was I insufficiently clear? Is this your parochialism surging to the surface?
These are not my sentiments I am expressing but the way the authorities in many countries think. Come to think of it, the police throughout North American have experienced much difficulty getting beyond their 'blame the victim' attitudes too.
Dr. Modesty has some gratuitous advice to offer. Suggest, urge your daughters, sisters and nieces to NOT travel abroad expect to rich, developed countries with similar attitudes to most (not all) North Americans.
By all means suggest they stick to North American colleges and universities where as we all know campuses are so safe. By all means suggest they 'travel'/vacation in Fort Lauderdale which as is clearly well known is an exceptionally safe destination.
So Billie Eilish is making it dangerous for American women to travel? C'mon
Sorry... I missed your last reply to me until now.
But since we're here... WTF? Your statements of perception and responsibility have the earmarks of the 1950's. There is no such thing as "she was asking for it". Women shouldn't have to worry that they are "sending out signals" and somehow those signals attract rapists. Half of all rapes in the US occur with a previous intimate partner, while the majority of the remainder occur with an acquaintance. Billie Eilish isn't impacting that.
"She has not put a lot of thought into this"? You know that how? Because she's young? She's 19, yet has more experience with fame, the media, and pop-culture than anyone you know or have met. Certainly more than anyone on this site. She's old enough to do whatever she wants. She isn't breaking any laws, and I could find dozens of more famous covers with older women in much more provocative/ revealing outfits.
There is this very odd "American women are up for it" notion in your post, but that suggests more about you than them. Try a thought experiment...which of these images is more provocative? Are you worried about being raped? C'mon...look at him, running around with his junk barely hidden...showing off those abs. Should we blame him for the 1 in 6 males that are sexually assaulted?
Since we know Canadians are always heading south for some action... you'd better have eyes in the back of your head next visit!!! 1 in 6!!!
....................
Yes indeed rgio. WHAT THE FUCK!?!! Are you having trouble reading? Or was I insufficiently clear? Is this your parochialism surging to the surface?
These are not my sentiments I am expressing but the way the authorities in many countries think. Come to think of it, the police throughout North American have experienced much difficulty getting beyond their 'blame the victim' attitudes too.
Dr. Modesty has some gratuitous advice to offer. Suggest, urge your daughters, sisters and nieces to NOT travel abroad except to rich, developed countries with similar attitudes to most (not all) North Americans.
By all means suggest they stick to North American colleges and universities where as we all know campuses are so safe. By all means suggest they 'travel'/vacation in Fort Lauderdale which as is clearly well known is an exceptionally safe destination.
Why should we care indeed. Billie and her brother will likely make even more money from this incident. Yes, she is a teenage pop star and probably has not put a lot of thought into this. If mature women politicos occasionally act like they are indifferent to women safety and security, what should we expect from a teenager?
Why? Because America is hyper-sexualized secular society where one of the most popular drugs is alcohol, and for all we know, the sexual assault and rape numbers may underestimate what actually goes on. American men of great stature appear to feel entitled to help themselves to attractive women (or young girls) of the right description. Men outside of the USA just want to have some fun!
Why? Because outside of the USA in several developing, traditional countries, American women are regarded as sexually desirable objects who will engage in all kinds of exciting sex at the snap of the fingers.
Why? Because police will often fail to do anything under the assumption the American rape victim "wanted" it, enjoyed it, or whatever.
Why? Because aerial bombing Spain, a NATO ally, is not an option.
Why? Because those photos perpetuate the received wisdom of American women as sex kittens/objects who are just begging for it all the time.
Try a thought experiment. How many men do you know put their penis and testicles on display to make a statement about body image and/or to advance their careers?
Sorry... I missed your last reply to me until now.
But since we're here... WTF? Your statements of perception and responsibility have the earmarks of the 1950's. There is no such thing as "she was asking for it". Women shouldn't have to worry that they are "sending out signals" and somehow those signals attract rapists. Half of all rapes in the US occur with a previous intimate partner, while the majority of the remainder occur with an acquaintance. Billie Eilish isn't impacting that.
"She has not put a lot of thought into this"? You know that how? Because she's young? She's 19, yet has more experience with fame, the media, and pop-culture than anyone you know or have met. Certainly more than anyone on this site. She's old enough to do whatever she wants. She isn't breaking any laws, and I could find dozens of more famous covers with older women in much more provocative/ revealing outfits.
There is this very odd "American women are up for it" notion in your post, but that suggests more about you than them.
Try a thought experiment...which of these images is more provocative? Are you worried about being raped? C'mon...look at him, running around with his junk barely hidden...showing off those abs. Should we blame him for the 1 in 6 males that are sexually assaulted?
Since we know Canadians are always heading south for some action... you'd better have eyes in the back of your head next visit!!! 1 in 6!!!
The real question is one that Pete Townsend ask: Why should we care? She is not a victim or a role model. She is just a teenage pop star, nothing more, nothing less. ......
Why should we care indeed. Billie and her brother will likely make even more money from this incident. Yes, she is a teenage pop star and probably has not put a lot of thought into this. If mature women politicos occasionally act like they are indifferent to women safety and security, what should we expect from a teenager?
Why? Because America is hyper-sexualized secular society where one of the most popular drugs is alcohol, and for all we know, the sexual assault and rape numbers may underestimate what actually goes on. American men of great stature appear to feel entitled to help themselves to attractive women (or young girls) of the right description. Men outside of the USA just want to have some fun!
Why? Because outside of the USA in several developing, traditional countries, American women are regarded as sexually desirable objects who will engage in all kinds of exciting sex at the snap of the fingers.
Why? Because police will often fail to do anything under the assumption the American rape victim "wanted" it, enjoyed it, or whatever.
Why? Because aerial bombing Spain, a NATO ally, is not an option.
Why? Because those photos perpetuate the received wisdom of American women as sex kittens/objects who are just begging for it all the time.
Try a thought experiment. How many men do you know put their penis and testicles on display to make a statement about body image and/or to advance their careers?
The real question is one that Pete Townsend ask: Why should we care? She is not a victim or a role model. She is just a teenage pop star, nothing more, nothing less. She got what she wanted fame, money and tons of ears on her creative output. I do not feel sympathy, derision or anything else towards her. I am more interested in paying my bills, at least she doesn't have to worry about that now does she?
Edit: Now if we were talking Cardi B, then you would have my attention. She is so awesome.
What are the numbers? Somewhere between 20 to 40% of American women are sexually assaulted and/or raped at least once during their lifetime? Those estimates do not include incidents of sexual harassment.
How do you teach young women to be street smart and to be careful as they leave their home and relatively safe environments and go forth into a more hostile world? Do the best lessons only come from close calls, or seeing their girl friends turn into victims?
How do you warn young women against the risks of binge-drinking? I recall hearing a young American woman on NPR who had been raped while on vacation in Spain saying roughly the following: "I should be able to drink and party hard anywhere I want to". Where does that dangerous entitlement attitude come from? If large men in good physical condition avoid getting staggering, puking drunk in new environments, why do smaller, far more vulnerable young American women feel they possess an entitlement right to do so?
The FREEDOM ideology seems to be in play here some of the time. If a young American woman wants to fuck her way across the Sahara desert, that is her business, her identity, right? Is there any reason why such women should care about the safety and security of other women? Of course not. That would fly against the culture of possessive individualism and FREEDOM.
What are the numbers? Somewhere between 20 to 40% of American women are sexually assaulted and/or raped at least once during their lifetime? Those estimates do not include incidents of sexual harassment.
How do you teach young women to be street smart and to be careful as they leave their home and relatively safe environments and go forth into a more hostile world? Do the best lessons only come from close calls, or seeing their girl friends turn into victims?
How do you warn young women against the risks of binge-drinking? I recall hearing a young American woman on NPR who had been raped while on vacation in Spain saying roughly the following: "I should be able to drink and party hard anywhere I want to". Where does that dangerous entitlement attitude come from? If large men in good physical condition avoid getting staggering, puking drunk in new environments, why do smaller, far more vulnerable young American women feel they possess an entitlement right to do so?
The FREEDOM ideology seems to be in play here some of the time. If a young American woman wants to fuck her way across the Sahara desert, that is her business, her identity, right? Is there any reason why such women should care about the safety and security of other women? Of course not. That would fly against the culture of possessive individualism and FREEDOM.
Billie Eilish owes us nothing. She doesn't owe us a role model for our image of what young women should be. She doesn't owe us any standard of decorum. She doesn't owe us a fashion icon. Or an anti-fashion icon. Or a body image. Or a look at her tits. She owes us nothing. She's not obliged to bear the weight of all the expectations, the projections, the prejudices placed on her by others. She's not obliged to live out the tragic arc so many before her have traveled, the artists who crumpled under all that weight, all those prejudices. And maybe she wouldn't be such a rare phenomenon if every girl watching this spectacle wasn't getting the message: we've got plans for you.
You think you own your life? Well, we own the image, the version everyone will see. We'll destroy you if it suites us just to sell seats at the spectacle. You can do something none of us can do, but we can do something you can't stop. And there's more where you came from.
yikes... hits the nail on the head. There are a ton of people out there selling identity as a commodity. Most fail. Often I think they are the lucky ones.
She doesn't owe us a role model for our image of what young women should be.
She doesn't owe us any standard of decorum.
She doesn't owe us a fashion icon. Or an anti-fashion icon. Or a body image. Or a look at her tits.
She owes us nothing.
She's not obliged to bear the weight of all the expectations, the projections, the prejudices placed on her by others.
She's not obliged to live out the tragic arc so many before her have traveled, the artists who crumpled under all that weight, all those prejudices.
And maybe she wouldn't be such a rare phenomenon if every girl watching this spectacle wasn't getting the message: we've got plans for you.
You think you own your life? Well, we own the image, the version everyone will see. We'll destroy you if it suites us just to sell seats at the spectacle. You can do something none of us can do, but we can do something you can't stop. And there's more where you came from.
A lot of the internet's finest have been roasting her for years because she wouldn't give them a peek. I'm not sure I understand her motivation here but a lot of incels are suddenly going to be real busy for a few days.
There are a number of males, perhaps 15 to 20% who will fuck anything that moves. The old conservative Norse warrior in me says that we should protect young adolescents and young adults from men like this.
Of course, there are wonderful exceptions. Many academics marry their graduate students (typically in their mid- to late 20s), have families and commit to life-long loving relationship.
I have a good friend who lost a relationship over porn and his wife (and 2 kids) over a "sex addiction". He's a really good friend, but he is a slave to his johnson. I can not understand it. Honestly, I'm not sure he understands it. He just can't stop. As he's entered his 50's (in great shape, in sales...smooth talker), he's hit the motherload of recently divorced, sexually uninhibited women who waited for the kids to leave home before getting a divorce. He is honestly a part-time gigolo. He's not getting paid, but he is now servicing 3 women per week at regular times (Monday evening, Weds afternoon...). He literally told me that one stopped over last month and said "I have to be somewhere later, can we just get to it without the usual chit-chat?" I wouldn't let him watch my cat, let alone my kids, but he's a good friend. Protecting young people from him is a good idea. Total agreement.
When my daughter was in high school, one of her classmates got very friendly with their teacher. He was relatively young (25 or so), but still 8 or 9 years older). There were rumors...but no facts. His contract (private school) wasn't renewed the following year, and he moved to TN (from NJ). The girl graduated HS and attended Vanderbilt (in TN). Today, they have been married for 3 or 4 years and have at least one child. You never know...but there are a lot of hurdles to overcome with such an age difference with one being so young.
She doesn't owe us a role model for our image of what young women should be.
She doesn't owe us any standard of decorum.
She doesn't owe us a fashion icon. Or an anti-fashion icon. Or a body image. Or a look at her tits.
She owes us nothing.
She's not obliged to bear the weight of all the expectations, the projections, the prejudices placed on her by others.
She's not obliged to live out the tragic arc so many before her have traveled, the artists who crumpled under all that weight, all those prejudices.
And maybe she wouldn't be such a rare phenomenon if every girl watching this spectacle wasn't getting the message: we've got plans for you.
You think you own your life? Well, we own the image, the version everyone will see. We'll destroy you if it suites us just to sell seats at the spectacle. You can do something none of us can do, but we can do something you can't stop. And there's more where you came from.
