[ ]   [ ]   [ ]                        [ ]      [ ]   [ ]

The Obituary Page - kurtster - Oct 27, 2021 - 6:57am
 
Mixtape Culture Club - ColdMiser - Oct 27, 2021 - 6:56am
 
What is the meaning of this? - kurtster - Oct 27, 2021 - 6:51am
 
Today in History - Red_Dragon - Oct 27, 2021 - 6:43am
 
Climate Chaos - oldviolin - Oct 27, 2021 - 6:41am
 
Into the Future - oldviolin - Oct 27, 2021 - 6:34am
 
Favorite Halloween Candy - miamizsun - Oct 27, 2021 - 5:57am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - sunybuny - Oct 27, 2021 - 5:53am
 
Counting with Pictures - ScottN - Oct 27, 2021 - 5:13am
 
North Korea - miamizsun - Oct 27, 2021 - 4:59am
 
Bob Dylan - miamizsun - Oct 27, 2021 - 4:51am
 
Solar / Wind / Geothermal / Efficiency Energy - miamizsun - Oct 27, 2021 - 4:43am
 
Museum Of Bad Album Covers - yuel - Oct 27, 2021 - 2:11am
 
Live Music - R_P - Oct 27, 2021 - 12:11am
 
Joe Biden - kurtster - Oct 26, 2021 - 9:40pm
 
Radio Paradise NFL Pick'em Group - GeneP59 - Oct 26, 2021 - 7:10pm
 
Facebook Tips - steeler - Oct 26, 2021 - 5:53pm
 
Fake News*  ?  ! - Manbird - Oct 26, 2021 - 5:29pm
 
Trump - Red_Dragon - Oct 26, 2021 - 5:19pm
 
History - lather, rinse, repeat. - haresfur - Oct 26, 2021 - 2:58pm
 
♥ ♥ ♥ Vote For Pie ♥ ♥ ♥ - miamizsun - Oct 26, 2021 - 2:30pm
 
Best Song Comments. - kcar - Oct 26, 2021 - 1:26pm
 
BillyGee's Greatest Segues - ScottFromWyoming - Oct 26, 2021 - 11:02am
 
Name My Band - Red_Dragon - Oct 26, 2021 - 10:16am
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - oldviolin - Oct 26, 2021 - 6:38am
 
Lyrics That Remind You of Someone - oldviolin - Oct 26, 2021 - 6:20am
 
COVID-19 - miamizsun - Oct 26, 2021 - 4:32am
 
Cool concerts?? - Steely_D - Oct 25, 2021 - 9:36pm
 
Dialing 1-800-Manbird - oldviolin - Oct 25, 2021 - 6:44pm
 
260,000 Posts in one thread? - oldviolin - Oct 25, 2021 - 4:01pm
 
How's the weather? - Red_Dragon - Oct 25, 2021 - 3:33pm
 
Baseball, anyone? - steeler - Oct 25, 2021 - 2:40pm
 
New Music - Proclivities - Oct 25, 2021 - 12:28pm
 
Australia has Disappeared - Red_Dragon - Oct 25, 2021 - 12:18pm
 
Vinyl Only Spin List - black321 - Oct 25, 2021 - 9:01am
 
Phine Phound Photographs - Proclivities - Oct 25, 2021 - 8:38am
 
World Music - Ohmsen - Oct 25, 2021 - 8:29am
 
Philly - rgio - Oct 24, 2021 - 5:38pm
 
China - Ohmsen - Oct 24, 2021 - 10:25am
 
kurtster's quiet vinyl - rhahl - Oct 24, 2021 - 7:45am
 
Jazz - rhahl - Oct 24, 2021 - 7:42am
 
Gotta Get Your Drink On - Antigone - Oct 24, 2021 - 5:17am
 
• • • BRING OUT YOUR DEAD • • •  - Steely_D - Oct 23, 2021 - 8:04pm
 
KUDOS for BillG - miamizsun - Oct 23, 2021 - 7:09pm
 
What Did You Do Today? - haresfur - Oct 23, 2021 - 5:54pm
 
• • •  BACON • • •  - Red_Dragon - Oct 23, 2021 - 3:10pm
 
Pernicious Pious Proclivities Particularized Prodigiously - Red_Dragon - Oct 23, 2021 - 1:32pm
 
Floyd forum - Coaxial - Oct 22, 2021 - 6:25pm
 
Republican Party - Red_Dragon - Oct 22, 2021 - 4:59pm
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - jarro - Oct 22, 2021 - 4:09pm
 
Apps turning itself on at night!night! - jarro - Oct 22, 2021 - 3:56pm
 
Positive Thoughts and Prayer Requests - kcar - Oct 22, 2021 - 2:49pm
 
Art Show - Antigone - Oct 22, 2021 - 1:48pm
 
Automotive Lust - haresfur - Oct 22, 2021 - 1:34pm
 
Oops! - ScottFromWyoming - Oct 22, 2021 - 12:16pm
 
Shipping News - KurtfromLaQuinta - Oct 22, 2021 - 12:11pm
 
curiosity... - ScottFromWyoming - Oct 22, 2021 - 9:37am
 
the Todd Rundgren topic - Steely_D - Oct 22, 2021 - 9:26am
 
Talk Behind Their Backs Forum - GeneP59 - Oct 21, 2021 - 6:49pm
 
Living in America - Red_Dragon - Oct 21, 2021 - 6:16pm
 
Emoticons - R_P - Oct 21, 2021 - 1:52pm
 
Democratic Party - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Oct 21, 2021 - 12:47pm
 
your music - pkoetsier5 - Oct 21, 2021 - 11:56am
 
Those Lovable Policemen - Ohmsen - Oct 21, 2021 - 10:19am
 
Get the Quote - Ohmsen - Oct 21, 2021 - 9:09am
 
Lyrics that strike a chord today... - miamizsun - Oct 21, 2021 - 8:39am
 
Philosophy (Meaty Metaphysical Munchables!) - dischuckin - Oct 21, 2021 - 8:38am
 
volcano! - miamizsun - Oct 21, 2021 - 8:18am
 
A little smooth jazz never hurt anyone - rhahl - Oct 21, 2021 - 7:27am
 
songs that ROCK! - Ohmsen - Oct 21, 2021 - 6:07am
 
Upcoming concerts or shows you can't wait to see - miamizsun - Oct 21, 2021 - 5:47am
 
Outstanding Covers - Ohmsen - Oct 21, 2021 - 5:39am
 
Graphic designers, ho! - Ohmsen - Oct 21, 2021 - 4:25am
 
Tech & Science - Manbird - Oct 20, 2021 - 6:17pm
 
Bitcoin - kurtster - Oct 20, 2021 - 4:50pm
 
Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » The Abortion Wars Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 13, 14, 15  Next
Post to this Topic
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Sep 15, 2021 - 11:20am

Abortion Has Never Been Just About Abortion
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: May 17, 2021 - 10:43am

Supreme Court will hear direct challenge to Roe v. Wade
pigtail

pigtail Avatar

Location: Southern California
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 30, 2020 - 4:57pm



 buddy wrote:


 R_P wrote:

 

Seriously? Do we not  have enough to debate already?
 

Stay outta this one, guys.......lol
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Dec 30, 2020 - 2:36pm


kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 19, 2019 - 4:33pm

 westslope wrote:
kcar,  You can try to make it as complicated you want.  In the meantime, here is a quote from the wiki-page on the subject of infanticide  that will get you pointed in the right direction:
Anthropologist Laila Williamson notes that "Infanticide has been practiced on every continent and by people on every level of cultural complexity, from hunter gatherers to high civilizations, including our own ancestors. Rather than being an exception, then, it has been the rule.":61
 
 
 
Complicated? It's not complicated. A zygote is not an infant. Nor is a blastocyst or an embryo. In US law a fetus is not considered a human being living outside its mother, with rights independent of that woman, i.e. an infant.
 
This thread focuses on abortion, a medical act typically performed on an embryo or fetus. In the US and other countries legally permitting abortion there are legal time limits tied to gestational progress so that killing approaching infanticide does not occur. I do not believe that legal abortions are infanticide. I define "infanticide" as the killing of an infant, that is a baby living outside of its mother.  
 
 
 

United States

In 1983, the United States ranked 11th for infants under 1 year killed, and fourth for those killed from 1 through 14 years (the latter case not necessarily involving filicide). In the U.S. over 600 children were killed by their parents in 1983.

In the United States the infanticide rate during the first hour of life outside the womb dropped from 1.41 per 100,000 during 1963 to 1972 to 0.44 per 100,000 for 1974 to 1983; the rates during the first month after birth also declined, whereas those for older infants rose during this time. The legalization of abortion, which was completed in 1973, was the most important factor in the decline in neonatal mortality during the period from 1964 to 1977, according to a study by economists associated with the National Bureau of Economic Research.

 
 
 
You wrote
 
 
 
"I'm good with infanticide if a reasonable of the citizenry also approves of infanticide.  But if the fellow citizens oppose infanticide, I am fine with the restriction."


 
So you're good with this (see below)? Really? (Again, from your Wikipedia article). Is this a Libertarian type of opinion? Personally, I'm against the killing of infants regardless of the attitudes of any citizenry. The Romans used to put live unwanted babies on refuse heaps to die. Not my thing, despite Roman acceptance of the practice. Then again, I'm against slavery regardless of popular opinions but maybe that's just me.
 
Let me ask you point blank: do you consider legal abortions in the US a form of infanticide? If you do, I'd like you to provide us with your definition of "infant." If you don't, you might want to start a new thread on infanticide.
 
Not that complicated.
 
The reason I'm a bit het up is some hard-right types in the US are trying to shift popular opinion by terming legal abortions as infanticide. Frankly, I think these people not basing their opinions on logic or biology or medical science. Many of the anti-abortion laws passed at state level are dangerous, excessively punitive and lacking any respect for women's rights.




Modern times

Infanticide has become less common in the Western world. The frequency has been estimated to be 1 in approximately 3000 to 5000 children of all ages and 2.1 per 100,000 newborns per year. It is thought that infanticide today continues at a much higher rate in areas of extremely high poverty and overpopulation, such as parts of China and India. Female infants, then and even now, are particularly vulnerable, a factor in sex-selective infanticide. Recent estimates suggest that over 100 million girls and women are 'missing' in Asia.

Benin

In spite of the fact that it is illegal, in Benin, West Africa, parents secretly continue with infanticidal customs.

North Korea

According to "The Hidden Gulag" published by the Committee for Human Rights in North Korea, the People's Republic of China returns all illegal immigrants from North Korea which usually imprisons them in a short term facility. Women who are suspected of being impregnated by Chinese fathers are subjected to forced abortions; babies born alive are killed, sometimes by exposure or being buried alive.





westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: May 19, 2019 - 3:18pm

kcar,  You can try to make it as complicated you want.  In the meantime, here is a quote from the wiki-page on the subject of infanticide  that will get you pointed in the right direction:


Anthropologist Laila Williamson notes that "Infanticide has been practiced on every continent and by people on every level of cultural complexity, from hunter gatherers to high civilizations, including our own ancestors. Rather than being an exception, then, it has been the rule."<3>:61



kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 18, 2019 - 5:31pm

 westslope wrote:
I'm good with infanticide if a reasonable of the citizenry also approves of infanticide.  But if the fellow citizens oppose infanticide, I am fine with the restriction.

As for erecting barriers to medically safe abortions I strongly oppose for a whole slew of personal, moral, ethical, collective security and economic reasons.  Human capital is so critical in today's economy that the quality of child rearing and education is just as or more important than ever. Presumably wanted, planned children stand a better chance.  

 
 
You might want to define your terms, especially with an eye to the first paragraph. Do you believe that zygote = blastocyst = embryo = fetus = infant? Do you believe it's acceptable for a person to kill a baby alive for one month outside of its mother's body? What about a six-month old infant?
 
I agree with your second paragraph FWIW. But I don't believe that legal abortions are infanticide. I also think that this slew of anti-abortion laws stem from a desire to control and limit women's freedom. These laws are going to create a major backlash among women voters.
 
 
 

R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: May 18, 2019 - 2:42pm

 westslope wrote:
I'm good with infanticide (...)
 
Different topic.

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: May 18, 2019 - 2:27pm

I'm good with infanticide if a reasonable of the citizenry also approves of infanticide.  But if the fellow citizens oppose infanticide, I am fine with the restriction.

As for erecting barriers to medically safe abortions I strongly oppose for a whole slew of personal, moral, ethical, collective security and economic reasons.  Human capital is so critical in today's economy that the quality of child rearing and education is just as or more important than ever. Presumably wanted, planned children stand a better chance.  
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: May 18, 2019 - 12:36pm

The anti-gay extremist behind America's fiercely strict abortion bans
Janet Porter is a woman who believes life begins at conception and homosexuality is a choice. She has said gay marriage caused Noah’s floods, and was the architect of a 1990s gay conversion campaign. She implied US supreme court justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, a Jewish woman, is a racist. Like Donald Trump, she was a proponent of the Barack Obama “birther” conspiracy theory.

The Southern Poverty Law Center, a leading civil rights organization, designates her non-profit Faith 2 Action, as a hate group for its work against LGBTQ rights. She lost a slot on a Christian radio network when, the station said, an event she held veered into a form of Christian supremacy. (...)

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: May 18, 2019 - 9:27am

A non-hysterical debate/discussion between two committed, passionate people that won't insult you or your intelligence.

I'm cheating, of course: they're both libertarians.  But this is absolutely worth a listen.

Pro-Life and Pro-Choice Libertarians Calmly Discuss Abortion

A conversation between Reason editors about Georgia's "heartbeat law," the future of Roe v. Wade, and how to be less shouty even when you disagree.


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: May 17, 2019 - 12:10pm

The Abortion Bans Aren’t Just About Repealing Roe v Wade
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: May 16, 2019 - 5:34pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
 
Shut up Pat, MAGA!

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: May 16, 2019 - 6:49am

Even Pat Robertson says it's too much...
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Apr 5, 2018 - 12:43pm

Another fine specimen
BlueHeronDruid

BlueHeronDruid Avatar

Location: planting flowers


Posted: Apr 4, 2018 - 2:55pm

 R_P wrote: 
Because Catholicism is all about retribution and murder.

But not birth control.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Apr 4, 2018 - 2:42pm

Fewer women = fewer abortions
Punishing women with the death penalty would cut abortions, Idaho candidate says
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Sep 5, 2012 - 3:01pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
Rapist's Gruesome Beheading Shows Turkish Dilemma On Abortion
The honor code of Turkey's rural Yalvac district, normally dictated by men, was turned upside down by a woman who decapitated her alleged rapist and tossed his head into the  square of the district's main village.

"That is the head of the one who toyed with my honor," Nevin Y. yelled as police arrested her.

The 26-year-old mother of two, whose full name has not been made public, claims she was blackmailed and raped for months by a man who made her pregnant, before she decided to seek revenge. She feared that if her rapist spread details of the attacks, her honor and the honor of her children would be compromised. Every day in Turkey women are killed or tortured for defying these codes.

For Nevin, the burden of honor hasn't ended. As she enters the fifth month of her pregnancy, she falls under the legal restriction that prohibits abortions after 10 weeks. Turkey's abortion debate has been re-sparked as Nevin pleas with authorities, saying she would rather die than give birth to the child of her attacker.

"The extremity of Nevin's actions show the extent of the trauma the rape has caused," says Dr. Gürsel Öztunalı Kayır of the Foundation for Women's Solidarity. " We shouldn't be distracted by the murder; if she wants to have an abortion following months of abuse, she should have the right."


 
If she's pregnant, it must not have been a legitimate rape.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Sep 5, 2012 - 2:47pm

Rapist's Gruesome Beheading Shows Turkish Dilemma On Abortion
The honor code of Turkey's rural Yalvac district, normally dictated by men, was turned upside down by a woman who decapitated her alleged rapist and tossed his head into the  square of the district's main village.

"That is the head of the one who toyed with my honor," Nevin Y. yelled as police arrested her.

The 26-year-old mother of two, whose full name has not been made public, claims she was blackmailed and raped for months by a man who made her pregnant, before she decided to seek revenge. She feared that if her rapist spread details of the attacks, her honor and the honor of her children would be compromised. Every day in Turkey women are killed or tortured for defying these codes.

For Nevin, the burden of honor hasn't ended. As she enters the fifth month of her pregnancy, she falls under the legal restriction that prohibits abortions after 10 weeks. Turkey's abortion debate has been re-sparked as Nevin pleas with authorities, saying she would rather die than give birth to the child of her attacker.

"The extremity of Nevin's actions show the extent of the trauma the rape has caused," says Dr. Gürsel Öztunalı Kayır of the Foundation for Women's Solidarity. " We shouldn't be distracted by the murder; if she wants to have an abortion following months of abuse, she should have the right."

Umberdog

Umberdog Avatar

Location: In my body.
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 30, 2012 - 11:17am

Free country? Ha! Time to forget the fairy tales. The suits have us bound and chained.
Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 13, 14, 15  Next