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haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 3:27pm

 cc_rider wrote:

Largest-to-smallest, or smallest-to-largest. Anything else is madness.

I tend to use '23-JAN-2018' to eliminate confusion. Throws auto-readers for a loop though.

 
I like to sort ascending properly.
miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 3:27pm

well that didn't last long...
cc_rider

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Location: Bastrop
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Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 3:20pm

 haresfur wrote:

2018-01-23

It's the only way to fly

 
Largest-to-smallest, or smallest-to-largest. Anything else is madness.

I tend to use '23-JAN-2018' to eliminate confusion. Throws auto-readers for a loop though.
haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 1:54pm

 Proclivities wrote:

Do you think they'll change the date formatting as well?

 
2018-01-23

It's the only way to fly
Proclivities

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Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 9:27am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


 
Do you think they'll change the date formatting as well?
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 22, 2018 - 9:01am




aflanigan

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Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2011 - 3:05pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

Law is force, nothing more, nothing less.  Ever has it been so.
 

Well, if law and force are equivalent, and all law is bad (meaning all force is bad), that's a pretty harsh and absolute position to take. For myself, I consider gravity to be good.

Good luck in the vacuum of space, dude.

{#Wink}
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Apr 18, 2011 - 2:52pm

 aflanigan wrote:


As I've stated before, the "men with guns" argument of Libertarians is one I find utterly unconvincing.  I'm OK with the use of sanctions (such as penalties) and/or force to enforce laws.  You for example would presumably be OK with the use of force to enforce laws against my killing you or your spouse?

If you are unhappy with the social contract that you entered into by choosing to live in the US (that obligates you to obey laws and pay taxes), you are free to move.

And we should really be having this discussion elsewhere.
 
Law is force, nothing more, nothing less.  Ever has it been so.

Why does either of us bother?  Neither of us is ever going to move one iota from our philosophical position.
aflanigan

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Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2011 - 2:37pm

 miamizsun wrote:

well that's part of it. (imho)

if people are attending government schools, they may (or may not) be exposed to some training on critical thought, but surely not focused toward the state. i'd say (at least from my experience) that most folks are led to believe that government is the solution and that mo gubmint is mo betta. (read long ago that a high level soviet defector was awestruck by the sophistication of the american propaganda, he claimed it was the best {#Lol})

like another popular mythology, we can look at "other" religions politics and immediately spot the BS, but fail to see this in our own forced/indoctrinated belief systems. so how does thiis happen? if you do think freely/critically it seems obvious.

regards

p.s. when governments violently take over other governments, they first things they seek to do are usually take control of the military, the money, and then eventually the educational infrastructure, maybe even rewrite some history.
 

Let's assume, J, for the sake of argument, that your premise is correct; that public schools in the US are engaged in systematic indoctrination towards the end of promoting/supporting statism, or brainwashing people into believing that all government is good, and more governemnt is "mo betta", as you so eloquently put it.  Will this explain, then, why Libertarianism fails to appeal to most people?  I'm afraid the answer (fairly easily arrived at) is no.

Indoctrination, or impressing values on young people, happens from the earliest days of childhood.  And in the early years, it can work pretty well for the most part.  Children are taught by their parents to "be good", are encouraged by their teachers to "follow the rules", to "study hard", "do their best", etc.  Churches simiarly strive to indoctrinate young and old towards moral living; obeying the commandments, donating to charity, shun premarital sex, etc.  But as anyone can see who studies human behavior, such intellectual moralizing has limited long term effectiveness in obtaining compliant behavior.  Sooner or later, kids figure out that much of the moralizing is hogwash, and they figure out that parents and teachers and spiritual guides often don't practice what they preach.  Even the virtuous Chaplain Tappmann of Catch-22 told a lie, and discovered that breaking the moral rules he had been indoctrinated in would not necessarily bring him ruin.  "The chaplain had sinned, and it was good."

If I were a Libertarian, I would want schools (particularly high schools) to attempt teaching students that government is always good, and more government is better.  You might have a shot at actually recruiting substantial numbers of rebellious high schoolers into the LP!!
aflanigan

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Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2011 - 1:49pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

So you're okay with the threat/use of force to fund what you consider good government?

 

As I've stated before, the "men with guns" argument of Libertarians is one I find utterly unconvincing.  I'm OK with the use of sanctions (such as penalties) and/or force to enforce laws.  You for example would presumably be OK with the use of force to enforce laws against my killing you or your spouse?

If you are unhappy with the social contract that you entered into by choosing to live in the US (that obligates you to obey laws and pay taxes), you are free to move.

And we should really be having this discussion elsewhere.
hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Apr 17, 2011 - 5:48pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

So you're okay with the threat/use of force to fund what you consider good government?

 
I am never okay with violence.

Red_Dragon

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Posted: Apr 17, 2011 - 5:47pm

 aflanigan wrote:

I didn't know you were a Libertarian/anarcho-capitalist!
 
So you're okay with the threat/use of force to fund what you consider good government?
hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
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Posted: Apr 17, 2011 - 5:47pm

 aflanigan wrote:

I didn't know you were a Libertarian/anarcho-capitalist!
 
I actually land in the lower left quadrant of the political grid, a libertarian leftie.

aflanigan

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Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 17, 2011 - 5:45pm

 hippiechick wrote:
We are certainly in agreement there.

 
I didn't know you were a Libertarian/anarcho-capitalist!

aflanigan

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Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 17, 2011 - 5:43pm

 miamizsun wrote:
If you're implying that I'm elitist in any way shape form or fashion, that is wildly inaccurate. If two people happen to agree on any given subject, that does not mean they are in lock step on everything. Anybody forcing anything and I'm out. Period. Heck, you and I agree on some things and disagree on others do we not?

There's an easy (principled) way to tell how I would feel about any action/situation. For me to agree or endorse, it has to be universally moral and ethical, it has to be voluntary/consenting between all parties, and there is no initiation of force, violence, aggression, coercion, fraud, etc.

It's that simple.

Regards

 


 
I'm merely reacting to the implied elitism of statements along the lines of "I'm not surprised you and most other people can't see the things I can".  If you want people to consider adopting  your belief system, you should concede the possibility that they might have as much, or perhaps more, insight than you imagine you have.

I would say that determining what is "universally moral and ethical" is a judgement that is often anything but easy or simple.


hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Apr 17, 2011 - 7:42am

 miamizsun wrote:
If you're implying that I'm elitist in any way shape form or fashion, that is wildly inaccurate. If two people happen to agree on any given subject, that does not mean they are in lock step on everything. Anybody forcing anything and I'm out. Period. Heck, you and I agree on some things and disagree on others do we not?

There's an easy (principled) way to tell how I would feel about any action/situation. For me to agree or endorse, it has to be universally moral and ethical, it has to be voluntary/consenting between all parties, and there is no initiation of force, violence, aggression, coercion, fraud, etc.

It's that simple.


Regards

We are certainly in agreement there.

 


miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 17, 2011 - 7:14am

 aflanigan wrote:
 miamizsun wrote:
With all due respect, I'm not surprised that most people don't see it. The abuse/indoctrination inherent in any government system isn't advertised or on the agenda, but this doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. It works the same way in the military too. People are conditioned, and not in a good way. I might suggest that you look at other governments and take note of their abuses and wrong doing and use that same critical eye here at home. Peace

Spare me, please, the patronizing attitude (if only you were as smart as I, you'd see it, too!)  It's understandable, I guess, that Libertarians look upon themselves as elitists, since they have to contend with the fact that for every one of them there are hundreds of others (educated and uneducated, wise and foolish) who don't believe in what they believe in, but as Mr. Caplan concedes, adopting the attitude "I know better than most people" will not win people over to your belief system.
 

If you're implying that I'm elitist in any way shape form or fashion, that is wildly inaccurate. If two people happen to agree on any given subject, that does not mean they are in lock step on everything. Anybody forcing anything and I'm out. Period. Heck, you and I agree on some things and disagree on others do we not?

There's an easy (principled) way to tell how I would feel about any action/situation. For me to agree or endorse, it has to be universally moral and ethical, it has to be voluntary/consenting between all parties, and there is no initiation of force, violence, aggression, coercion, fraud, etc.

It's that simple.

Regards


arighter2

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Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 9:54pm


beamends

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Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 6:33pm

 dmax wrote:

That's why libertarianism isn't a viable option.
It's a great idea if you're self-sufficient and kind.
If you're dependent or unkind, then it's a poor choice to not have a government around to help or keep you from taking advantage of others.

 
I absolutely agree, that's why I'm more or less happy (compared to the alternatives) with the mix of authoritarianism and libertarianism we have over here. There has to be rules, to save us from ourselves, where the line gets drawn between the two is the only issue. I like to try and get a handle on other views though.

oldviolin

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Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2011 - 6:17pm

 dmax wrote:

That's why libertarianism isn't a viable option.
It's a great idea if you're self-sufficient and kind.
If you're dependent or unkind, then it's a poor choice to not have a government around to help or keep you from taking advantage of others.

 

indeed
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