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NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: May 25, 2022 - 12:23am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Of course there is! What part of I am at heart a realist do you find hard to understand?  (which is basically what I was saying by pursuing logical consistency which would be kind of vacuous were it to have no reference to an objective reality) I think your beef might be with Westlope or RP. Not quite getting your drift here.

Not finding it difficult to understand, just difficult to reconcile with earlier posts.
 

Still not getting your drift. You seem to want to lump me in with the post-modernists in the cultural wars. Sorry, don't play that game. Way back in the day I had a really cool group of friends. Half of us were studying English lit and the other half philosophy. There was also a neat kind of symmetry as my best friend (also from the Philosophy department) flatted with the best friend from my flatmate and those two were full-on into Derrida and Foucault (I guess you would call it critical theory nowadays). We had some crazily heated debates over copious bottles of wine. One culminated in a lecturer from the English lit department shouting at me, "There is no truth! Just accept it is true!"

hmm. QED I thought. (and yes, I have told this story here before if you think it sounds familiar).

Our discussions in the philosophy department were much more into realism vs. idealism, determinism, the philosophy of science, existentialism, the limits of empiricism and yes, logic.

<snip>

I always thought you and I differed on the foundation of moral theory, not on the issue of realism or the predictive power of theory, so I am kind of surprised to see you lump me in with the post-modernists.
Lazy8

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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: May 24, 2022 - 1:26pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Of course there is! What part of I am at heart a realist do you find hard to understand? 

(which is basically what I was saying by pursuing logical consistency which would be kind of vacuous were it to have no reference to an objective reality)

I think your beef might be with Westlope or RP. Not quite getting your drift here.

Not finding it difficult to understand, just difficult to reconcile with earlier posts.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: May 24, 2022 - 1:07pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

ha, if you think I am a proponent of post-modernism, you read me wrong. PS  Never was. Ultimately, and Dugistan is a good example, all such appeals to construed reality and narrative as being ultimately precedent to a logical system are vacuous as they presuppose an agenda that itself needs explaining. You end up with a snake eating its tail pretty quickly or nothing at all matters anymore. That said, there is some (limited) value to the leftist, moral relativist critique of logical systems being based on some kind of inherited value system (narrative) which peoples from other cultures/perspectives might not share. However, contrary to them, I never said that this nullifies any pursuit of logical consistency and the urgent need to reconcile differences in a language that hopefully becomes more universal with age. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I thought otherwise. If anything I take the cultural diversity angle to merely mean humility is in order, which I sometimes find lacking among the more vocal advocates of purely rational world views. But that doesn't mean I eschew rationality per se. Quite the opposite.


So I'm going to press a little further and try to put you on record: Is there such a thing as an objective reality against which we can gauge the truth/falsity of a statement, such as "Those weren't Russian bombs falling on Aleppo"? That is is there such a thing as a true statement, or a false one?
 
Of course there is! What part of I am at heart a realist do you find hard to understand? 

(which is basically what I was saying by pursuing logical consistency which would be kind of vacuous were it to have no reference to an objective reality) 

I think your beef might be with Westlope or RP. Not quite getting your drift here.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: May 24, 2022 - 1:00pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

ha, if you think I am a proponent of post-modernism, you read me wrong.

PS 

Never was. Ultimately, and Dugistan is a good example, all such appeals to construed reality and narrative as being ultimately precedent to a logical system are vacuous as they presuppose an agenda that itself needs explaining. You end up with a snake eating its tail pretty quickly or nothing at all matters anymore.

That said, there is some (limited) value to the leftist, moral relativist critique of logical systems being based on some kind of inherited value system (narrative) which peoples from other cultures/perspectives might not share.

However, contrary to them, I never said that this nullifies any pursuit of logical consistency and the urgent need to reconcile differences in a language that hopefully becomes more universal with age. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I thought otherwise. If anything I take the cultural diversity angle to merely mean humility is in order, which I sometimes find lacking among the more vocal advocates of purely rational world views. But that doesn't mean I eschew rationality per se. Quite the opposite.


So I'm going to press a little further and try to put you on record:

Is there such a thing as an objective reality against which we can gauge the truth/falsity of a statement, such as "Those weren't Russian bombs falling on Aleppo"?

That is is there such a thing as a true statement, or a false one?
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: May 24, 2022 - 11:22am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 miamizsun wrote:
how do authoritarians proselytize?
when you control the media/narrative it is way easier push delusional bs
"our reality" or "standing in our truth"

So NoEnz... Is he doing postmodernism wrong, or does this demonstrate that it's the last refuge of liars and bullies?
  
ha, if you think I am a proponent of post-modernism, you read me wrong.

PS 

Never was. Ultimately, and Dugistan is a good example, all such appeals to construed reality and narrative as being ultimately precedent to a logical system are vacuous as they presuppose an agenda that itself needs explaining. You end up with a snake eating its tail pretty quickly or nothing at all matters anymore.

That said, there is some (limited) value to the leftist, moral relativist critique of logical systems being based on some kind of inherited value system (narrative) which peoples from other cultures/perspectives might not share. 

However, contrary to them, I never said that this nullifies any pursuit of logical consistency and the urgent need to reconcile differences in a language that hopefully becomes more universal with age. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I thought otherwise. If anything I take the cultural diversity angle to merely mean humility is in order, which I sometimes find lacking among the more vocal advocates of purely rational world views. But that doesn't mean I eschew rationality per se. Quite the opposite.

Lazy8

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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: May 24, 2022 - 9:44am

 miamizsun wrote:
how do authoritarians proselytize?
when you control the media/narrative it is way easier push delusional bs
"our reality" or "standing in our truth"


So NoEnz... Is he doing postmodernism wrong, or does this demonstrate that it's the last refuge of liars and bullies?
miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: May 24, 2022 - 4:28am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
how do authoritarians proselytize?
when you control the media/narrative it is way easier push delusional bs
"our reality" or "standing in our truth"


NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: May 23, 2022 - 12:02pm

Newspeak is big in this one.
miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: May 12, 2022 - 4:36am

soviet visuals is a good throw back channel...

 

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: May 9, 2022 - 2:59am

Novaya Gazeta's take on the evolution of Russia under Putin.
Red_Dragon

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Posted: May 8, 2022 - 10:33am

Six Russian businessmen die 'by suicide' within three months: Four oligarchs and two directors at oil giant Gazprom 'have taken their own lives' in spate of deaths among Russia's elite since Putin invaded Ukraine
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Apr 14, 2022 - 12:43pm

Russia warns of nuclear, hypersonic deployment if Sweden and Finland join NATO
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Apr 12, 2022 - 7:17pm

Kremlin-connected children grew up in the very countries whose societies their parents claim to reject
miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 12, 2022 - 5:09am

the power of poland compels you!
(and if you can watch jason's inteview with navalny in 2011)


thisbody

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Location: Fólkvangr
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 11, 2022 - 2:01pm

 R_P wrote:

Tricky "rules-based orders".
U.S. Weighs Shift to Support Hague Court as It Investigates Russian Atrocities

A related issue under discussion among administration officials is whether the United States should soften its longstanding objection to the court exercising jurisdiction over citizens from a country that is not a party to its treaty, according to officials.

On the table is whether those decisions should instead depend on whether a particular country has a functioning justice system that can handle allegations of war crimes. The rationale is that it would be legitimate for the court to investigate Russian war crimes because Mr. Putin and his commanders appear to be committing them with domestic impunity.

Pentagon officials, however, are said to be balking. They contended that moving to a case-by-case approach would be shortsighted because it would make it harder for the United States to argue against court investigations into potential war crimes by American forces, officials said.

Some opponents of changing the American position are also said to have pointed to Israel — an ally that is also not a party to the treaty. The United States has objected to an investigation by the court of potential war crimes by Israeli forces. (...)

And in a Washington Post opinion column last week, John Bellinger, a national security lawyer in the George W. Bush administration, and Christopher J. Dodd, a former Democratic senator who was responsible for adding the exception to the 2002 law, argued that “U.S. support for an I.C.C. investigation of Russian war crimes would not constitute a double standard or be inconsistent with U.S. objections to the court’s claimed jurisdiction over U.S. personnel.

”While most of the world’s democracies joined the court a generation ago — including close U.S. allies like Britain — many American leaders were wary, fearing that it could be used or misused someday to prosecute American forces. (...)

Relations plunged during the Trump administration, when a top prosecutor for the court tried to investigate the torture of terrorism detainees during the Bush administration. The government imposed sanctions on court personnel, and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo denounced it as corrupt. (...)
You need, uh, exceptions/special pleading.


ANGST
R_P

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Posted: Apr 11, 2022 - 12:35pm

Tricky "rules-based orders".
U.S. Weighs Shift to Support Hague Court as It Investigates Russian Atrocities
A related issue under discussion among administration officials is whether the United States should soften its longstanding objection to the court exercising jurisdiction over citizens from a country that is not a party to its treaty, according to officials.

On the table is whether those decisions should instead depend on whether a particular country has a functioning justice system that can handle allegations of war crimes. The rationale is that it would be legitimate for the court to investigate Russian war crimes because Mr. Putin and his commanders appear to be committing them with domestic impunity.

Pentagon officials, however, are said to be balking. They contended that moving to a case-by-case approach would be shortsighted because it would make it harder for the United States to argue against court investigations into potential war crimes by American forces, officials said.

Some opponents of changing the American position are also said to have pointed to Israel — an ally that is also not a party to the treaty. The United States has objected to an investigation by the court of potential war crimes by Israeli forces. (...)

And in a Washington Post opinion column last week, John Bellinger, a national security lawyer in the George W. Bush administration, and Christopher J. Dodd, a former Democratic senator who was responsible for adding the exception to the 2002 law, argued that “U.S. support for an I.C.C. investigation of Russian war crimes would not constitute a double standard or be inconsistent with U.S. objections to the court’s claimed jurisdiction over U.S. personnel.

”While most of the world’s democracies joined the court a generation ago — including close U.S. allies like Britain — many American leaders were wary, fearing that it could be used or misused someday to prosecute American forces. (...)

Relations plunged during the Trump administration, when a top prosecutor for the court tried to investigate the torture of terrorism detainees during the Bush administration. The government imposed sanctions on court personnel, and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo denounced it as corrupt. (...)
You need, uh, exceptions/special pleading.
R_P

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Posted: Apr 6, 2022 - 9:04pm



rhahl

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Posted: Apr 6, 2022 - 11:28am

Ukraine a Pawn in a Larger Struggle – Vijay Prashad pt 1

Is it too soon to start asking who lost Russia?
 
Like a couple of thieves dividing the loot. Something changed.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Apr 6, 2022 - 6:18am

How we got here with Russia (from the ISW)
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Apr 4, 2022 - 12:48pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:


Yep, makes a lot of sense to me. What a clusterfuck. 
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