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R_P

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Posted: Jul 6, 2020 - 12:14pm


kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 5, 2020 - 11:09pm

 Steely_D wrote:


 Red_Dragon wrote:
italics mine
This is not like Charlottesville where someone deliberately went after a group of protesters on a street trying to cause harm. At this point in time I would have a hard time thinking that the driver in Seattle saw these people while going the other way, got off at the next exit and got back on to go run over some people. It is possible though. That would be appalling at all levels if that was the case. I do believe that a split second decision was involved, one way or the other.
 

The road was CLOSED. This was deliberate. The person is a goddam murderer.
 

Correct. I don't think that protestors should block the freeway, but this is what happened:

Dawit Kelete of Seattle drove the car around vehicles that were blocking I-5 and sped into the crowd about 1:40 a.m., according to a police report released by the Washington State Patrol. Video taken at the scene by protesters showed people shouting "Car! Car!" before fleeing the roadway.


That's intention, which is homicide. And, kurtster, I agree with you - it's appalling at all levels.
 
So the police closed the Interstate and allowed the protesters to be there.  The driver went around police cars blocking the ramp he got on at and then drove down to where the protesters were ?  Is that what happened ?  Why did the police allow him to get on the freeway then and not chase him after he broke through their barrier ?

I did some searching and have yet to find out how exactly the police closed down the Interstate to traffic.  That information seems to be missing.

But if the police allowed the protesters on the freeway, then the police department is directly responsible for not protecting the protesters and allowing this to happen.

I did find some stuff about the driver and his victims though ... I will be following up on this one to see where it goes.  It does seem to be a deliberate act on the driver's part.

Ironic.  Black man murders white Black Lives Matters protesters.  Hate crime as well.

Dawit Kelete Accused of Running Over Seattle Protesters
Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 5, 2020 - 4:41pm



 Red_Dragon wrote:
italics mine
This is not like Charlottesville where someone deliberately went after a group of protesters on a street trying to cause harm. At this point in time I would have a hard time thinking that the driver in Seattle saw these people while going the other way, got off at the next exit and got back on to go run over some people. It is possible though. That would be appalling at all levels if that was the case. I do believe that a split second decision was involved, one way or the other.
 

The road was CLOSED. This was deliberate. The person is a goddam murderer.
 

Correct. I don't think that protestors should block the freeway, but this is what happened:

Dawit Kelete of Seattle drove the car around vehicles that were blocking I-5 and sped into the crowd about 1:40 a.m., according to a police report released by the Washington State Patrol. Video taken at the scene by protesters showed people shouting "Car! Car!" before fleeing the roadway.


That's intention, which is homicide. And, kurtster, I agree with you - it's appalling at all levels.
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jul 5, 2020 - 4:05pm



 kurtster wrote:
This has been bothering me an awful lot since I first became aware of it ...

The incident on the Seattle freeway that was blocked by protesters and a motorist running into two of them, one of which has since died.

I have seen the video several times.

I do not know or claim to know what was in the mind of any of those involved, but it is time to talk about theses things because this is going to become more common as the days pass.

So these protesters are pissed off enough to walk onto an Interstate highway after midnight wearing dark clothing, block it with vehicles and bodily occupy the adjoining lanes.

Do they also expect that they will not be hit by passing cars ?  More importantly, do they expect a right not to be run over ?

So what about a passing driver ?  What expectations and what rights do they have when lawfully operating a motor vehicle on a Federal Interstate highway ?

There are two possible scenarios with the driver.  Either he didn't see them in time to react and was fearful for his life or was he just as pissed off as the protesters and decided to teach them a lesson or two ?

Personally, back in the 70's and 80's as a route driver in a tough town, I long ago made the conclusion that if I ever got in a situation where pedestrians deliberately blocked my passage or tried to surround my vehicle, somebody was going to get run over.  I was not going to find out what was in the minds of these people.  Of course I would head to a cop shop immediately and report it, not flee and hide.  Back then, the Cleveland Police told people that were traveling in certain neighborhoods in the wee hours of the morning to treat a red light like a stop sign and keep moving.  But I have already thought about the scenario in Seattle many, many times over the years just being a professional driver.  That is why this is bothering me so much.

Now we have anarchy in this city (Seattle and now others) and the police are no longer part of the equation when it comes to a mob vs. someone in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So does being pissed off to a certain degree give someone the right to break the law and expect no harm or consequences in so doing ?  Finally, someone got crushed by a statue they were pulling down.  Too bad, so sad.

But this is different.  Unless the driver in Seattle was pissed off enough to run over protesters was instead confronted with a life threatening situation and had to make an immediate decision, him or them ?  My sympathy lies with the driver.  The protesters broke the law just being on an Interstate as pedestrians.  They then created a life threatening hazard with a barricade in the middle of an Interstate Highway, that not only being hidden in the dark, gives very little time to react at lawful speeds.  What if the driver ran into the vehicles blocking the Interstate, crashed and died.  Then what ?  Who is responsible for their death and what happens to the protesters who erected the barricade and occupied the freeway ?  Nothing, would be my first guess ...

This is not like Charlottesville where someone deliberately went after a group of protesters on a street trying to cause harm.  At this point in time I would have a hard time thinking that the driver in Seattle saw these people while going the other way, got off at the next exit and got back on to go run over some people.  It is possible though.  That would be appalling at all levels if that was the case.  I do believe that a split second decision was involved, one way or the other.

Anyone who lives in a large urban area has the potential to have to face this decision.  No one should ever have to make this decision and would not, if the protesters were acting lawfully.  But here we are.

ymwv ...

 

The road was CLOSED. This was deliberate. The person is a goddam murderer.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 5, 2020 - 2:28pm

This has been bothering me an awful lot since I first became aware of it ...

The incident on the Seattle freeway that was blocked by protesters and a motorist running into two of them, one of which has since died.

I have seen the video several times.

I do not know or claim to know what was in the mind of any of those involved, but it is time to talk about theses things because this is going to become more common as the days pass.

So these protesters are pissed off enough to walk onto an Interstate highway after midnight wearing dark clothing, block it with vehicles and bodily occupy the adjoining lanes.

Do they also expect that they will not be hit by passing cars ?  More importantly, do they expect a right not to be run over ?

So what about a passing driver ?  What expectations and what rights do they have when lawfully operating a motor vehicle on a Federal Interstate highway ?

There are two possible scenarios with the driver.  Either he didn't see them in time to react and was fearful for his life or was he just as pissed off as the protesters and decided to teach them a lesson or two ?

Personally, back in the 70's and 80's as a route driver in a tough town, I long ago made the conclusion that if I ever got in a situation where pedestrians deliberately blocked my passage or tried to surround my vehicle, somebody was going to get run over.  I was not going to find out what was in the minds of these people.  Of course I would head to a cop shop immediately and report it, not flee and hide.  Back then, the Cleveland Police told people that were traveling in certain neighborhoods in the wee hours of the morning to treat a red light like a stop sign and keep moving.  But I have already thought about the scenario in Seattle many, many times over the years just being a professional driver.  That is why this is bothering me so much.

Now we have anarchy in this city (Seattle and now others) and the police are no longer part of the equation when it comes to a mob vs. someone in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So does being pissed off to a certain degree give someone the right to break the law and expect no harm or consequences in so doing ?  Finally, someone got crushed by a statue they were pulling down.  Too bad, so sad.

But this is different.  Unless the driver in Seattle was pissed off enough to run over protesters was instead confronted with a life threatening situation and had to make an immediate decision, him or them ?  My sympathy lies with the driver.  The protesters broke the law just being on an Interstate as pedestrians.  They then created a life threatening hazard with a barricade in the middle of an Interstate Highway, that not only being hidden in the dark, gives very little time to react at lawful speeds.  What if the driver ran into the vehicles blocking the Interstate, crashed and died.  Then what ?  Who is responsible for their death and what happens to the protesters who erected the barricade and occupied the freeway ?  Nothing, would be my first guess ...

This is not like Charlottesville where someone deliberately went after a group of protesters on a street trying to cause harm.  At this point in time I would have a hard time thinking that the driver in Seattle saw these people while going the other way, got off at the next exit and got back on to go run over some people.  It is possible though.  That would be appalling at all levels if that was the case.  I do believe that a split second decision was involved, one way or the other.

Anyone who lives in a large urban area has the potential to have to face this decision.  No one should ever have to make this decision and would not, if the protesters were acting lawfully.  But here we are.

ymwv ...

Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 5, 2020 - 9:18am


Isabeau

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Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 5, 2020 - 8:27am

Remember Charlottesville, where a woman was KILLED by a 'very fine' white Supremacist?
Have yet to read of Antifa Killing anyone.
Hell, we've got Governors and a President who are allowing people to DIE from politicizing a savage virus through denial and incompetence.
Spare us the Selective Outrage and Hopscotch Morality.
KarmaKarma

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Posted: Jul 5, 2020 - 7:02am


KarmaKarma

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Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 9:48pm

If Antifa and its enablers / useful idiots can keep this mayhem up until November, Oregon might just turn into a red state.


KarmaKarma

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Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 9:41pm


R_P

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Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 9:25pm

KarmaKarma, looking down from lofty clouds, wrote:
Let's face it: no matter who is in the Oval office, it is impossible for most members of this site to give up their partisan hackery and seek out any possible common ground.

A reasonable person might think that intelligent people, of any political stripe, would be capable of looking at the policies and actions of a White House occupant, and rather than remain silent, they would acknowledge when they agree with a particular direction, plan or announcement.

Alas, reasonable persons seem few.

I can imagine several reasons for this, with blame falling in many places.

Because it's so much easier for many to mock, ridicule, harangue, blame, stereotype, and personalize the conflict of ideas. Yes, izzinit?

So resume your day - and do watch out for the pools of cognitive dissonance.

KarmaKarma

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Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 9:06pm



 Furshlugginer_D wrote:


 KarmaKarma wrote:
Ask yourself. Who does this benefit?

https://www.zerohedge.com/poli...


 

Not gonna drive traffic to the link. This one's better. But I wanted to point out to others that it's becoming a standard practice amongst folks without substance in their argument to ask you to do the leg work by using leading questions. You see it a LOT with the QAnon folks ("Well, if he was using the word 'pizza' a lot, what else could it mean?")

The implication, in a roundabout way, is that the poster sits in a higher position of knowledge and is giving you the means for you to become smarter.

But really, something that's clear doesn't need questions and roundabout Socratic method. It needs stating, clearly, and withstanding scrutiny. A question-like statement like the one above forces you to provide an answer and therefore is immune. "I'm just asking the question!"

Trust me!   The link is double plus good!  It's officially endorsed by #NewspeakEdition11 !

Ask yourself: Who does this benefit?


 


Isabeau

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Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 8:36pm



 Steely_D wrote:


 KarmaKarma wrote:
Ask yourself. Who does this benefit?

https://www.zerohedge.com/poli...


 

Not gonna drive traffic to the link. This one's better. But I wanted to point out to others that it's becoming a standard practice amongst folks without substance in their argument to ask you to do the leg work by using leading questions. You see it a LOT with the QAnon folks ("Well, if he was using the word 'pizza' a lot, what else could it mean?")

The implication, in a roundabout way, is that the poster sits in a higher position of knowledge and is giving you the means for you to become smarter.

But really, something that's clear doesn't need questions and roundabout Socratic method. It needs stating, clearly, and withstanding scrutiny. A question-like statement like the one above forces you to provide an answer and therefore is immune. "I'm just asking the question!"
 
"let me direct the conversation. Never answer YOUR questions, but keep imploring you to answer MINE."
otherwise known as



"Oh Look! A Squirrel!"


Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 8:34pm



 KarmaKarma wrote:
Ask yourself. Who does this benefit?

https://www.zerohedge.com/poli...


 

Not gonna drive traffic to the link. This one's better. But I wanted to point out to others that it's becoming a standard practice amongst folks without substance in their argument to ask you to do the leg work by using leading questions. You see it a LOT with the QAnon folks ("Well, if he was using the word 'pizza' a lot, what else could it mean?")

The implication, in a roundabout way, is that the poster sits in a higher position of knowledge and is giving you the means for you to become smarter.

But really, something that's clear doesn't need questions and roundabout Socratic method. It needs stating, clearly, and withstanding scrutiny. A question-like statement like the one above forces you to provide an answer and therefore is immune. "I'm just asking the question!"
KarmaKarma

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Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 8:10pm

Ask yourself. Who does this benefit?

https://www.zerohedge.com/poli...


kcar

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Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 2:44pm



 KarmaKarma wrote:
Welp, after watching hours and hours of protests, have to say that my views have changed - they've now hardened.  Peaceful, noisy protests are perfectly fine, especially those occurring during daylight hours.

However ... better mechanisms need to be put in place to quickly extract from the crowds instigators of violence & those who engage in vandalism.

And apparently some education of protest organizers is in order too.  They win zero friends by walking through neighborhoods late at night or after midnight, banging on their drums and bellowing through their PA horns.  

And Seattle ...?  Wow, you are one screwed up city.  Your politicians first tie the hands of the cops, then when you finally realize you screwed up, you release them and they are still restrained.  The only thing accomplished so far is multiple attempts by said protesters to see how far they can push the cops through disobedience and in your face insults.  That's not what protesting is about.  And 9 or 10 more days of this to come?  When they are up for reelection in 2021, it would be a shame if the mayor and any sympathizers were thrown out of office.
 

"The only thing accomplished so far is multiple attempts by said protesters to see how far they can push the cops through disobedience and in your face insults. That's not what protesting is about."



You mean like the armed protesters who stormed the Michigan State Capitol building?


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EW...






Is that in-your-face enough for you?  

I agree with your call for "quickly extract(ing) from the crowds instigators of violence & those who engage in vandalism."
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 9:41am

The revolution will not be televised.
— G. Scott-Heron

As a callow lad, in my scholastic days, I read Dick Gregory’s The Shadow That Scares Me, Eldridge Cleaver’s Soul on Ice, and The Autobiography of Malcolm X, among other provocative books. Those books made an impression on an impressionable mind. I guess it fair to say I filed some of those impressions away; they stayed with me even if I did not act upon them. Suffice it to say, there were lessons to be learned.

Protests bring attention to issues. That is what they are designed to do. The hard work of effectuating the changes sought and highlighted begins afterward, if at all. And it often falls to others to nurture the spark lest it become extinguished. Social change, as we have seen, is incremental. Certain protests, like those triggered by the murder of George Floyd, are literally combustible. The stopper on that bottle of incremental change pops and the bottle explodes. This emotional outpouring cannot be easily contained nor, it can be argued, should it. There is good reason for these emotions.

This protest is more enduring than most other protests and more volatile (see also the long arc of Vietnam War protests and also the inner-city riots following the assassination of MLK). Those of us on the left side of the political spectrum know that many protests and “movements” become co-opted by a multitude of ideological agendas. Their messages can and do become diluted. The other thing about these large, emotional protests is that they can and often do become co-opted by those using them as cover to loot or engage in other forms of illicit behavior, driven by reasons that have little or nothing to do with the message that brought the great, great majority out into the streets, crying for justice and standing vigil. No question some of those out there for good reason and with good intentions let their emotions get the better of them at times. It happens.

The central point is that the original message, the catalyst not only for the protests but for the needed social change, becomes not only diluted but sometimes disparaged because of these roiling and overlapping waters. Unfortunate as this is, it is not reason to throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water.

Eyes on the prize. Justice beckons. Always.

Here is hoping there may be some kernels of sound thinking amidst these meanderings.

Have a happy and safe July 4th holiday weekend!
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jul 2, 2020 - 11:06am

 KarmaKarma wrote:
Welp, after watching hours and hours of protests, have to say that my views have changed - they've now hardened. (...)

Shocking! They were sooo reasonable before.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 2, 2020 - 8:47am



 cc_rider wrote:


 KarmaKarma wrote:
Welp, after watching hours and hours of protests, have to say that my views have changed - they've now hardened.  Peaceful, noisy protests are perfectly fine, especially those occurring during daylight hours.

However ... better mechanisms need to be put in place to quickly extract from the crowds instigators of violence & those who engage in vandalism.

And apparently some education of protest organizers is in order too.  They win zero friends by walking through neighborhoods late at night or after midnight, banging on their drums and bellowing through their PA horns.  

And Seattle ...?  Wow, you are one screwed up city.  Your politicians first tie the hands of the cops, then when you finally realize you screwed up, you release them and they are still restrained.  The only thing accomplished so far is multiple attempts by said protesters to see how far they can push the cops through disobedience and in your face insults.  That's not what protesting is about.  And 9 or 10 more days of this to come?  When they are up for reelection in 2021, it would be a shame if the mayor and any sympathizers were thrown out of office.
 
One of the reasons the civil rights protests were (reasonably) successful was their discipline. Under Dr. King, protesters went through training. Intensive training, with volunteers (usually white) shouting, spitting and more. There's footage of that training, and it's really hard to watch - young white people yelling the most horrible things at black folks. But that was exactly what they faced in the streets.
White protesters got the same training - in some ways they were more at risk, as 'N***** Lovers'. See 'Freedom Riders'.

Dr. King demanded non-violence - against the wishes of many voices in the movement. His leadership galvanized people like John Lewis, Ralph Abernathy, and many others to keep 'the troops' in line, well-trained and committed to non-violence. Dr. King knew any hint of aggression would be met with overwhelming force. See 'Connor, Bull'. 

We don't have a Dr. King, or a Mahatma Ghandi, to provide structure and discipline to these protests. With predictable results, sadly.
c.


 
it's unfortunate that many of the current day protesters believe King's way did not work. 
No, we didn't resolve racism, but we made progress.
Once you resort to violence you lose the otherwise sympathetic moderate,
and you give ammunition to those who oppose the cause: the racist, bigot and status quo

cc_rider

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Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 2, 2020 - 8:26am



 KarmaKarma wrote:
Welp, after watching hours and hours of protests, have to say that my views have changed - they've now hardened.  Peaceful, noisy protests are perfectly fine, especially those occurring during daylight hours.

However ... better mechanisms need to be put in place to quickly extract from the crowds instigators of violence & those who engage in vandalism.

And apparently some education of protest organizers is in order too.  They win zero friends by walking through neighborhoods late at night or after midnight, banging on their drums and bellowing through their PA horns.  

And Seattle ...?  Wow, you are one screwed up city.  Your politicians first tie the hands of the cops, then when you finally realize you screwed up, you release them and they are still restrained.  The only thing accomplished so far is multiple attempts by said protesters to see how far they can push the cops through disobedience and in your face insults.  That's not what protesting is about.  And 9 or 10 more days of this to come?  When they are up for reelection in 2021, it would be a shame if the mayor and any sympathizers were thrown out of office.
 
One of the reasons the civil rights protests were (reasonably) successful was their discipline. Under Dr. King, protesters went through training. Intensive training, with volunteers (usually white) shouting, spitting and more. There's footage of that training, and it's really hard to watch - young white people yelling the most horrible things at black folks. But that was exactly what they faced in the streets.
White protesters got the same training - in some ways they were more at risk, as 'N***** Lovers'. See 'Freedom Riders'.

Dr. King demanded non-violence - against the wishes of many voices in the movement. His leadership galvanized people like John Lewis, Ralph Abernathy, and many others to keep 'the troops' in line, well-trained and committed to non-violence. Dr. King knew any hint of aggression would be met with overwhelming force. See 'Connor, Bull'. 

We don't have a Dr. King, or a Mahatma Ghandi, to provide structure and discipline to these protests. With predictable results, sadly.
c.


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