steeler wrote: 
Yes, yes and exactly.  THAT is why impeachment is an imperative.  If we are going to avert two generations of damage to this nation, his censure, his fall, his rebuke and rejection have to be complete.

Look, I think the entire nation gets it.  People want to feel like they're valued for who they are, warts and all.  They need to regain dignity and respect that was lost when the economy evolved in a different direction.  They don't want food stamps, they want to be paid a living wage.  There is 30 years of damaging neo-con propaganda to undo...then the hard work of reforming the minimum wage and health care systems, and the biggest freaking listening tour in history to come in order to give everybody a chance.  But the healing can't start until he's gone.

 Lazy8 wrote: 
Fair enough.

So given that he's clearly NOT helping ANYone but himself...not the trailer park folks, not the struggling farmer, not the barely-afloat trucker, not the single working mom in the city, not the small business owner...NO ONE, what do YOU propose we do?  Is he achieving ANYthing?  Is he forwarding an agenda that benefits ANY of the assuredly-good folks you talk to?  If the answer is "yes; he's making the quality of life better for all these good folks over here that you and your little liberal bubble don't see", then OK.  But I don't see it.  In fact, the government is already at a halt.

So lacking that, is there a better alternative to "impeach him and kick ourselves in the ass for electing someone this destructive; let's all see if we can do a better job of this whole representative democracy thing from now on".  Because I don't see a better alternative.  He shows no sign of regaining any semblance of mental health or productivity, attempting to unite a desperately broken congress or even putting a reasonable and achievable policy agenda forward.  And given that, it's just going to keep getting worse and worse.

So what do you propose?

From my POV, the only hope right now is that the collective disdain for Trump MIGHT actually get congress to get their heads out of their nethers and  start working in a bipartisan way.  MIGHT.  God help us otherwise.

Edit:  And if he's impeached, it would, of course, be Pence...who frankly is a cold-hearted SOB, but is sane.  Which probably makes him even more dangerous.  The only hope is for a flip of at least the Senate in 2018 to balance his "screw the poor, the disabled, the minorities and the gays" agenda. 

Look, Marty, you're a good guy and I respect you. You make some good points.  But this man in the White House is going to make things worse for every single one of us except Trump and his cronies...and then maybe eve not his cronies. 

 Beanie wrote:

 

I don't get it, either.  I have read through the interesting discussion on this thread today, and, like Beanie, I have read columns like those of Clive Crook and have had numerous discussions on the same subject, in person and on the Internet, with both Trump supporters and those who are becoming more and more distressed by the Trump presidency. I have friends and relatives who voted for Trump, and I have had discussions with them. A few points I wish to make:

What I do not get is that apparently some — perhaps many—Trump voters/supporters are doubling down on their support of Trump because of their perception that they —and those like them — are being disrespected by (1) the "liberal media"; (2) liberal "elites," especially the "coastal elites;" and, generally, (3) those in the "establishment." There is irony here in that it appears that these kind of Trump supporters are frustrated by their belief that their views are being reduced to a monolith, yet they view those so reducing them as being part of monoliths.  I get that no one wants his or her views, or his or her vote, to be summarily dismissed and assailed in personal terms.  No one wants to be labeled as "racist" or "stupid" because of his or her views, or how he or she votes. That I get. But the charge here is that the liberal media and the elites are uniformly doing just that instead of engaging these Trump supporters in dialogue to try to understand their views and positions.  That they are not listening to the Trump supporters; that they are being condescending, purporting to know better. I certainly see some of that. But I see more attempts at engaging. This listening thing is a 2-way street.  I do not see that many Trump supporters willing to engage in dialogue – in person or on the Internet.  Instead, criticisms of Trump and his policies are more and more being dismissed as part of a monolithic response:  they are just opposed to anything Trump does.  The media is engaging in “fake news” to try to discredit Trump and impose its own agenda.  So are the “elites” and the “establishment.”  In sum, there is no point in listening to their criticisms.  So who is not engaging?  Frankly, that long has been a problem in this country, the lack of engagement on issues of importance.  We simply are not very good at it, and it has gnawed at our democracy for a long time now.  But to charge that this is the province of one faction, or one side of the political spectrum?  Please.  Who were the ones chanting “lock her up, lock her up” at Trump rallies?  Were they implying that those who voted for Hillary were stupidly voting for a criminal who long has had perpetrating evil on her mind and on her agenda? 

What I also am hearing is that for a good chunk of these Trump supporters Trump himself is irrelevant.  My support/defense of him is increasing because I’ll be damned if I am going to let them tell me what I should think and do.  I’ll show them!  But show them what, exactly? This smacks of cutting off my nose to spite my face. Think about it – the President is irrelevant to my support of him.  I am supporting something larger than him.  I am sending a message to those who refuse to engage me, refuse to listen to me, summarily dismiss me and my views. Under those circumstances – assuming them to be widely present — how will that message be received?         

One thing is abundantly clear to me in all of this:  Trump engages in propaganda on a daily basis; it is his stock in trade. He has thrown gas on the fire that has us questioning each other and all of our institutions.  I fear the consequences down the road, well past the time Trump has left office. He is not irrelevant.  Yes, we have checks and balances wisely built into our constitutional system, but that does not render any President irrelevant.  The bully pulpit alone is an immense power.  It can be used to pit us against one another or to draw us together – or anything in between.                                   

 Lazy8 wrote:
Good points...and i think this is the key takeaway.  Trump supporters think all who oppose him, the left, want him impeached.  They want the gov to come to a halt and that we should be doing everything we can to oust him...but for what?  To get back to the good old days?  They might say Trump isnt good, but how exactly is he worse?  We have elected him as president and therefore should let him fulfill that role.

 Beanie wrote:

Thanks for clearing that up. 

 Beanie wrote:
I think you're asking Trump supporters the wrong question.

What does "Do you still support Trump" mean?

Are you sorry you voted for him? Do you wish you had a do-over on the election?

Do you want him impeached, and the federal government ground to a halt for months while Congress tries to get a do-over on the election?

He's the president. Support, at this point, is irrelevant. OK, I don't support him—he's still president. You can't have a do-over on the election. And if we did have a do-over, with the choice being Hillary or Trump, they'd still choose Trump.

I know very few people—even those who voted for him—who like him. They make Scott Adams-like rationalizations about him: the things I disagree with are just negotiating tactics, you don't hire a nice guy for a lawyer when you're in a legal fight, etc. They have to live with their choice, but they made that choice and their preference won't be relevant for another 3 years.

As for nails: of course it's about the nail! After all, I've got a hammer, so your problem is a nail. And I've got a hammer right here, let me help you with that problem of yours that you clearly don't understand as well as I do.

See how well that sells? You want to force their problems into your solutions, solutions that haven't changed in decades—and it's not like you haven't had a chance to try them. Along comes a huckster telling them that the last solution didn't perform as advertised, but he'll do something different. Different may not be better, but the same hasn't done much for them. They don't have a clear basis to make that call on, but the guy selling different is allegedly fabulously successful, so he must know something they don't.

I also want to point out that almost none of the Trump voters I know live in dystopian trailer park ghettos, wallowing in despair and opioid addiction—most of those folks don't vote for anybody. They have reasonably comfortable lives for the most part, and they care about their country. My trucker friend is making a decent living, but he's constantly having to deal with new burdens imposed on him and he's scrambling to keep from sliding backward rather than to get ahead. Yeah, that's a sample size of one, but if I tell you about the other hundred or so people I know who voted for MAGAmemnon I'd have to tell you an equally long story about each, and their unique problems. Problems that only look like nails if they aren't yours.

 Antigone wrote: 
Seconded.

 Beanie wrote: 
Aw, c'mon, don't be insulting ferrets!

 Beanie wrote: 
 

 pigtail wrote: 
I didn't interpret Scott's response as assuming resentment of Trump's money.  He's saying that this is a group of people who feel like the deck is stacked against them, perhaps with reason.  They see that those who "have" don't act or speak like they do, so they see attainment as impossible.  But here comes this person who doesn't use words like "attainment" and who voices resentment of the "outsiders" who they feel have replaced them and he make it looks like they maybe can have the good life that those others have.  But if Trump loses, they don't have another "role model" (good heavens, did I just use that word???) to aspire to be, because there isn't anyone else.  The don't see him as a poser and an anomaly, they see him as proof that you don't have to change to have wealth. 

My struggle is in their not seeing through the charade, in believing the horrid, festering lies.  And I worry about what will happen to this nation when they finally figure it out.  :(

 ScottFromWyoming wrote: 
Ah...the "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" defense...

That's just hard to wrap my head around.  I grew up with pretty much nothing. I'm comfortable now, but that's because of a combination of hard work and a few lucky breaks  But I never banked on the magic money fairy in the sky coming down in the form of an obese oversized oompaloompa with the morals of a deranged ferret to make my dreams come true.

 ScottFromWyoming wrote: 
Um no.......You are assuming all of us are resentful because he is rich.  I could care less how well off he and his family are.  Please don't discount that fact that his daddy made the money, not him.  Also, what says that the amount of money you make, make you a success in life?  If anyone is the epitome of that myth, its Trump.  Trump is NOT living my fantasy life.  He is an abomination of exactly what is wrong with morality, judgement and is unfortunately in a position to represent me due to his position in the country.  I have no problem with him taking his riches and doing what he wishes to do, lawfully.

 maryte wrote: 
You hippie!

 ScottFromWyoming wrote: 
I've always felt this was the general root of the objection from the "don't tax the rich" crowd.  

 maryte wrote: 
You're not Trumping hard enough!

 ScottFromWyoming wrote: 

Oh, I'm *always* worried about screwing up, primarily because I usually am - but lack of responsibility makes me uncomfortable. I can't take credit for successes if I don't also take responsibility for the fuck-ups.

 maryte wrote: 
Yeah but the impunity thing is even more tempting. Not having to worry about screwing up holds a lot of appeal for some of us f'ups... 

 black321 wrote: 
I don't think there's a simple answer, but I think part of it is rationalization, something all of us humans are good at. We find a narrative to justify our biases, find scapegoats to shoulder the blame for disappointments and things that anger us. In doing this, it's all too easy to put aside whatever tendency towards rationality and clear thinking we may possess. 

Finding common ground, finding an agreed upon consensus of reality and morality, is something that observers have noted seems to have become increasingly difficult, hand in hand with the increased political polarization of the electorate. 

 ScottFromWyoming wrote: 

I guess I just feel that if I have *enough* money, I don't need *more* money - does that qualify me as "present company"?  

 ScottFromWyoming wrote: 
You know, at first i read this and thought it was far fetched.  Then I thought of one friend who I describe as a Trump apologist..and he always had admiration for Trump and his family.  They come across as a "golden family."  Look how polite the daughter is, and the boys dress nice...he cant be that bad if he raised good kids like them (i've heard him say).  So, that may be it.  They cant understand how a guy who made a lot of $ and raised respectable kids can be bad.  After all, isnt that what America is all about?  Making $ and looking good?