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miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2016 - 4:12am

 islander wrote:

I don't even get a nod?  How many rants does it take?

condensed version:  The French have pretty much figured this out (they started 40 years ago). Multiple medium sized reactors of the exact same design. This makes maintenance, operation, training and nearly everything else easier and more efficient than out hodgepodge of designs and implementations designed to keep contractors and utility operators in the black.

They recycle their fuel getting a much better yield (we only use about 5% of the fuel we mine), and they have a plan for storage of the waste that involves buy in from the remote communities impacted. They also have a requirement that the stored materials are retrievable for  several hundred years in case they come up with a better treatment solution.

We use a lot of power. New tech is helping curb the usage, but adoption and growth is simply too much. If even half of the people of the world get near our standard of living, there simply isn't enough solar/wind/coal/hydro/oil/tidal/whatever to absorb/catch/burn/spin/burn/sway/whatever to make energy for everyone. Nuclear is the ONLY answer that has capacity.  I'm all for Ms various smaller designs and I think thorium has some real potential (with some associated scaling problems). But no matter what flavor, the only option is turn stuff off, and convince everyone else to do the same, or go nuclear. 

 
your rants are fine

this is a union seniority issue (see bylaws)

however there is an amendment recently adopted (article 21, section 4e) that gives constitutional authority to represent one another in any and all circumstances of conflabulation* when present

*argument, argumentation, argy-bargy, back-and-forth, beef, bitch, colloquy, chit-chat, conference, consult, consultation, council, counsel, debate, deliberation, discussion, dialogue (also dialog), duel, give-and-take, palaver, parley, schmooze, spank, talk and verbally body slam


islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 14, 2016 - 4:58pm

 RichardPrins wrote:

The PDF breaks everything down and explains it (much better than I could).

 
Won't open here for some reason.

I'll totally cede the point that Nuclear isn't perfect. But I really don't see any alternatives. I'm in an industry that counts building loads in MegaWatts. I see a lot of stuff about loads and planning from utilities. We have made great strides in efficiency, better insulation, LED bulbs, refrigerators that use pennies a day in electricity... And yet the larger TVs and more USB chargers keep the household loads creeping up. Businesses make progress with more efficient equipment, but then add more features and give all employees two monitors and a laptop, and then back everything up to NAS in teh basement....

And that's just us. Wait until the rest of the world gets on the 2 TVs, a laptop a phone and a kindle bandwagon.  Less usage (not likely), fewer people (unpleasant process), or more electrical generation.  We need one of these. If we don't do it with Nuclear, we won't keep up with anything environmentally friendly. If we burn coal/gas/oil to keep up, we may wind up with fewer people that are plugging stuff in, but that seems a pretty ugly way to reach the goal. Pick your poison. Good, Fast, Cheap, you can't have them all. 
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 14, 2016 - 4:48pm

 islander wrote:
and the US is something like 20% of electrical generation. Yes that is only electrical, but electrical demand is expanding and has fewer alternatives (some of the other energy sources are switching to electrical). They do export because their cost of production is low. I'd like to see where you get that it is a loss - The (state) power company does lose money frequently, but that's not from selling electricity. If it was sold at loss, I doubt they would keep selling it.
 
The PDF breaks everything down and explains it (much better than I could).

Maybe not always at a loss, since energy prices fluctuate. The report is also from 2008, based on 2007 data, so it may be a bit outdated.


islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 14, 2016 - 4:44pm

 RichardPrins wrote:

~77% of electricity is generated by nuclear, which ends up as 15% in final energy use (as not everything runs on electricity). A chunk of it has always been exported, and at a loss.

 
and the US is something like 20% of electrical generation. Yes that is only electrical, but electrical demand is expanding and has fewer alternatives (some of the other energy sources are switching to electrical). They do export because their cost of production is low. I'd like to see where you get that it is a loss - The (state) power company does lose money frequently, but that's not from selling electricity. If it was sold at loss, I doubt they would keep selling it. 
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 14, 2016 - 4:35pm

 islander wrote:

Certainly, not without problems is a phrase that can be used for nearly every major construction/engineering problem ever. I can't open the PDF, but the first article is mostly about construction issues and delays with some real questions about vessel integrity that are being tested. Then it mentions similar construction problems in the US and says that the French have a credibility problem.

The French are currently generating 3/4 of their energy from nuclear. Substantially more than anyone else.  

I stand by my statement that there is no other alternative. Either we use less energy (I just don't see this happening), or we figure out how to produce more. Nuclear is the only possible source that can supply the need.  I'd like to supplement with as many other green(ish) technologies as we can, and keep looking for others, but for now it's time to start cracking atoms. 

 
~77% of electricity is generated by nuclear, which ends up as 15% in final energy use (as not everything runs on electricity). A chunk of it has always been exported, and at a loss.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 14, 2016 - 3:54pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
 islander wrote:
condensed version:  The French have pretty much figured this out (they started 40 years ago). Multiple medium sized reactors of the exact same design. This makes maintenance, operation, training and nearly everything else easier and more efficient than out hodgepodge of designs and implementations designed to keep contractors and utility operators in the black.

They recycle their fuel getting a much better yield (we only use about 5% of the fuel we mine), and they have a plan for storage of the waste that involves buy in from the remote communities impacted. They also have a requirement that the stored materials are retrievable for  several hundred years in case they come up with a better treatment solution. (...)

But not entirely without problems either:
French Nuclear Model Falters - The New York Times
Nuclear Power in France: Beyond the Myth

 
Certainly, not without problems is a phrase that can be used for nearly every major construction/engineering problem ever. I can't open the PDF, but the first article is mostly about construction issues and delays with some real questions about vessel integrity that are being tested. Then it mentions similar construction problems in the US and says that the French have a credibility problem.

The French are currently generating 3/4 of their energy from nuclear. Substantially more than anyone else.  

I stand by my statement that there is no other alternative. Either we use less energy (I just don't see this happening), or we figure out how to produce more. Nuclear is the only possible source that can supply the need.  I'd like to supplement with as many other green(ish) technologies as we can, and keep looking for others, but for now it's time to start cracking atoms. 
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 14, 2016 - 10:01am

 islander wrote:
condensed version:  The French have pretty much figured this out (they started 40 years ago). Multiple medium sized reactors of the exact same design. This makes maintenance, operation, training and nearly everything else easier and more efficient than out hodgepodge of designs and implementations designed to keep contractors and utility operators in the black.

They recycle their fuel getting a much better yield (we only use about 5% of the fuel we mine), and they have a plan for storage of the waste that involves buy in from the remote communities impacted. They also have a requirement that the stored materials are retrievable for  several hundred years in case they come up with a better treatment solution. (...)

But not entirely without problems either:
French Nuclear Model Falters - The New York Times
Nuclear Power in France: Beyond the Myth
Prodigal_SOB

Prodigal_SOB Avatar

Location: Back Home Again in Indiana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 14, 2016 - 9:29am

 islander wrote:

I don't even get a nod?  How many rants does it take?

 
  Can you ever have too many rants?
 

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Jan 14, 2016 - 7:02am

 islander wrote:

I don't even get a nod?  How many rants does it take?

condensed version:  The French have pretty much figured this out (they started 40 years ago). Multiple medium sized reactors of the exact same design. This makes maintenance, operation, training and nearly everything else easier and more efficient than out hodgepodge of designs and implementations designed to keep contractors and utility operators in the black.

They recycle their fuel getting a much better yield (we only use about 5% of the fuel we mine), and they have a plan for storage of the waste that involves buy in from the remote communities impacted. They also have a requirement that the stored materials are retrievable for  several hundred years in case they come up with a better treatment solution.

We use a lot of power. New tech is helping curb the usage, but adoption and growth is simply too much. If even half of the people of the world get near our standard of living, there simply isn't enough solar/wind/coal/hydro/oil/tidal/whatever to absorb/catch/burn/spin/burn/sway/whatever to make energy for everyone. Nuclear is the ONLY answer that has capacity.  I'm all for Ms various smaller designs and I think thorium has some real potential (with some associated scaling problems). But no matter what flavor, the only option is turn stuff off, and convince everyone else to do the same, or go nuclear. 

 
I was referring to the thorium option.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 14, 2016 - 7:00am

 Red_Dragon wrote:

Let her have it, Zeff. {#Lol}

 
I don't even get a nod?  How many rants does it take?

condensed version:  The French have pretty much figured this out (they started 40 years ago). Multiple medium sized reactors of the exact same design. This makes maintenance, operation, training and nearly everything else easier and more efficient than out hodgepodge of designs and implementations designed to keep contractors and utility operators in the black.

They recycle their fuel getting a much better yield (we only use about 5% of the fuel we mine), and they have a plan for storage of the waste that involves buy in from the remote communities impacted. They also have a requirement that the stored materials are retrievable for  several hundred years in case they come up with a better treatment solution.

We use a lot of power. New tech is helping curb the usage, but adoption and growth is simply too much. If even half of the people of the world get near our standard of living, there simply isn't enough solar/wind/coal/hydro/oil/tidal/whatever to absorb/catch/burn/spin/burn/sway/whatever to make energy for everyone. Nuclear is the ONLY answer that has capacity.  I'm all for Ms various smaller designs and I think thorium has some real potential (with some associated scaling problems). But no matter what flavor, the only option is turn stuff off, and convince everyone else to do the same, or go nuclear. 
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 14, 2016 - 6:19am

 helenofjoy wrote:

In my own considerable experience with watching humans "evolve," it seems we have gone far astray from flourishing and have indeed placed the entire planet's ecosystem in jeopardy.  This in a relative minuscule amount of time.  Until we dispense with greed, the addiction to personal power, and our problems with overpopulation, I don't see that working.  Nuclear might be fine if there was a safe way to deal with the very very dangerous nuclear waste problem

 
a few random thoughts...

there are many types of reactors and they all produce waste

some are relatively wasteful, some are very efficient

the run the gamut, like automobiles

and the waste is toxic, no question about that

imho nuclear has been neglected and politically positioned/leveraged to suit certain purposes

in the early days the political incentives were for war (stuff that goes boom)

those weren't concerned about waste or energy

now we have designs that are much safer and could actually burn the waste from the old reactors

and the new designs make it very difficult to produce weapons and the waste is minuscule

they're great for energy, desalination, etc.

you might watch pandoras promise on netflix (which isn't perfect but it can give you an overview to start) and/or check out this youtube channel

as i understand it nuclear is much safer than anything we have (that can scale) and can appease the CO2/green acolytes

solar, wind and hydro have some scale issues

solar has a lot of potential (see exponential growth like swanson's law)

the planet needs a lot more energy availability to lift the masses out of poverty (which curbs population growth)

short answer: the more energy we have, the better off we are

regards

here's an older green friendly video

 

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 14, 2016 - 5:49am

 Red_Dragon wrote:

Let her have it, Zeff. {#Lol}

 
i'll be gentle...j/k
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Jan 13, 2016 - 11:03am

 helenofjoy wrote:

In my own considerable experience with watching humans "evolve," it seems we have gone far astray from flourishing and have indeed placed the entire planet's ecosystem in jeopardy.  This in a relative minuscule amount of time.  Until we dispense with greed, the addiction to personal power, and our problems with overpopulation, I don't see that working.  Nuclear might be fine if there was a safe way to deal with the very very dangerous nuclear waste problem

 
Let her have it, Zeff. {#Lol}
marko86

marko86 Avatar

Location: North TX
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 13, 2016 - 10:53am

 miamizsun wrote:

i would say that we want man made evolution

as far as making modifications that will foster human flourishing

in other words, controlled and/or directed by humans

from diverse fields exploring how to apply evolutionary biology across disciplines

imho i believe we will get there (or make some progress) a lot sooner than most folks think

and aren't the principles are the same, whether we're talking about medicine, agriculture or biodiversity (environment)

we need a lot more energy to lift the masses out of poverty and clean things up

i like nuclear as a base


from diverse fields exploring how to apply evolutionary biology across disciplines

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2014-09-man-made-evolution.html#jCp


 
I don't necessarily disagree, but given the scale of the issue, much resources will have to be spent on adapting. Earth is like a huge ship that will take literally thousands of years to turn around.
helenofjoy

helenofjoy Avatar

Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 13, 2016 - 10:48am

 miamizsun wrote:

i would say that we want man made evolution

as far as making modifications that will foster human flourishing

in other words, controlled and/or directed by humans

from diverse fields exploring how to apply evolutionary biology across disciplines

imho i believe we will get there (or make some progress) a lot sooner than most folks think

and aren't the principles are the same, whether we're talking about medicine, agriculture or biodiversity (environment)

we need a lot more energy to lift the masses out of poverty and clean things up

i like nuclear as a base


from diverse fields exploring how to apply evolutionary biology across disciplines

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2014-09-man-made-evolution.html#jCp


 
In my own considerable experience with watching humans "evolve," it seems we have gone far astray from flourishing and have indeed placed the entire planet's ecosystem in jeopardy.  This in a relative minuscule amount of time.  Until we dispense with greed, the addiction to personal power, and our problems with overpopulation, I don't see that working.  Nuclear might be fine if there was a safe way to deal with the very very dangerous nuclear waste problem
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 13, 2016 - 10:15am

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
i would say that we want man made evolution

as far as making modifications that will foster human flourishing

in other words, controlled and/or directed by humans

from diverse fields exploring how to apply evolutionary biology across disciplines

imho i believe we will get there (or make some progress) a lot sooner than most folks think

and aren't the principles the same, whether we're talking about medicine, agriculture or biodiversity (environment)

we need a lot more energy to lift the masses out of poverty and clean things up

i like nuclear as a base


from diverse fields exploring how to apply evolutionary biology across disciplines

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2014-09-man-made-evolution.html#jCp



Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Jan 13, 2016 - 9:06am

Human impact has pushed Earth into the Anthropocene, scientists say
DaveInSaoMiguel

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Location: No longer in a hovel in effluent Damnville, VA
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 18, 2015 - 11:33am

EPA says VW intentionally violates clean air standards


NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 30, 2015 - 3:55pm

 haresfur wrote:


 
still think this guy is the funniest guy on the planet, barring my uncle.
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 28, 2015 - 9:52pm


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