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oldviolin
Location: esse quam videri Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 2:12pm |
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dionysius wrote: Consciousness-raising and education DOES work. The change I witnessed over the past four decades is instructive. I grew up in part of the thoroughly, publically, officially racist American South. I allowed education to work for me, and (slowly and painfully, perhaps) most of the white folks I grew up with cast out their old opinions, the ones they inherited from our parents. Racists and racist opinions persist even today, as we have just been tragically reminded of, but they are marginalized and cannot affect public policy anymore. Expressing racist opinions has become no longer acceptable in public. Hate speech codes are deplored by some on the right, but they have proved essential and helpful in eliminating the discourse that provides the matrix for racism to grow and survive (now if we could just filter hate out of the internet!). The change has been remarkable and heartening, and should remind everyone that drastic social change for better IS possible. So then, why is it that all it takes is a hint, a wiff of some bogus cry of racism to turn productivity and progress into a shambles? It's got nothing to do with the South in particular. It has to do with attitudes in general of folks, regardless of race.. I'm not saying that progress hasn't been made. I'm saying that lagtime is a nasty business, and people of color are just now making the inroads into our cultural development that was the promise of our very Declaration Of Independence. Imagine that. There is still a great divide in this country as regards race and racial issues, and as long as there is I believe that we are vulnerable to be manipulated accordingly.
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arsenault
Location: long beach cali USandA Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 2:03pm |
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meower wrote:
don't misunderstand me, please, I think that there was a time when it WAS important to look at American cultural/economic issues through the lenses that saw racism, and it was a time that necessitated that society become more aware of the need for social change in so far as race went. I'm just saying that today to refer to black people as if they are all one group doesnt really present any true picture.....
you said it well...and i agree... AND what Dio said...Amen...
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meower
Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 2:01pm |
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dionysius wrote: Consciousness-raising and education DOES work. The change I witnessed over the past four decades is instructive. I grew up in part of the thoroughly, publically, officially racist American South. I allowed education to work for me, and (slowly and painfully, perhaps) most of the white folks I grew up with cast out their old opinions, the ones they inherited from our parents. Racists and racist opinions persist even today, as we have just been tragically reminded of, but they are marginalized and cannot affect public policy anymore. Expressing racist opinions has become no longer acceptable in public. Hate speech codes are deplored by some on the right, but they have proved essential and helpful in eliminating the discourse that provides the matrix for racism to grow and survive (now if we could just filter hate out of the internet!). The change has been remarkable and heartening, and should remind everyone that drastic social change for better IS possible. thanx you responded to a different post, but said what I wanted to say, way better.
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meower
Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 2:00pm |
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arsenault wrote: meower wrote:Can we slow down with the "black folks" talk here? While I agree that there are lots of African Americans living in poverty, it's a bit offensive to refer a group of people as though they dont have opportunities when we have an African American in the white house at this point. Seriously.
wait...
....so we shouldn't judge or dismiss or excuse or condemn someone based on the color of their skin...hmm.... paging Dr, King.... don't misunderstand me, please, I think that there was a time when it WAS important to look at American cultural/economic issues through the lenses that saw racism, and it was a time that necessitated that society become more aware of the need for social change in so far as race went. I'm just saying that today to refer to black people as if they are all one group doesnt really present any true picture.....
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dionysius
Location: The People's Republic of Austin Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:56pm |
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oldviolin wrote:You're not going to suceed in legislating hearts. Not going to happen.
Consciousness-raising and education DOES work. The change I witnessed over the past four decades is instructive. I grew up in part of the thoroughly, publically, officially racist American South. I allowed education to work for me, and (slowly and painfully, perhaps) most of the white folks I grew up with cast out their old opinions, the ones they inherited from our parents. Racists and racist opinions persist even today, as we have just been tragically reminded of, but they are marginalized and cannot affect public policy anymore. Expressing racist opinions has become no longer acceptable in public. Hate speech codes are deplored by some on the right, but they have proved essential and helpful in eliminating the discourse that provides the matrix for racism to grow and survive (now if we could just filter hate out of the internet!). The change has been remarkable and heartening, and should remind everyone that drastic social change for better IS possible.
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zipper
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:51pm |
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islander wrote:
There is a big difference in the acts that he equated though. The doctor was acting within the bounds of the laws that govern our society. The person who attacked him (interestingly, I can't find his name in the first several news stories), was acting outside of our laws and taking a vigilante approach to those who he had disagreements with. You might see those as the same, but I do not. And I believe that the second has a far worse impact on our society than the first. And peoples unwillingness to stand up and say that it was a heinous, vicious, illegal act are empowering the attitude that allows such acts of blatant disregard for the rules which hold our society together.
Isn't it enough that he condemned the killing of the doctor? Must he abandon his moral position as well?
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Exit2Eden
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:51pm |
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woozurbuddy wrote:Effing Bingo! Seriously offensive to (insert your favorite color) folks. As an EEO/ADA professional, I concur...add disability, national origin, age, gender, sexual orientation, religion, blah, blah, blah to the "seriously offensive" fill-in-the-blank statement. off soapbox now
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arsenault
Location: long beach cali USandA Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:50pm |
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meower wrote:Can we slow down with the "black folks" talk here? While I agree that there are lots of African Americans living in poverty, it's a bit offensive to refer a group of people as though they dont have opportunities when we have an African American in the white house at this point. Seriously.
wait...
....so we shouldn't judge or dismiss or excuse or condemn someone based on the color of their skin...hmm.... paging Dr, King....
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sirdroseph
Location: Not here, I tell you wat Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:48pm |
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meower wrote:Can we slow down with the "black folks" talk here? While I agree that there are lots of African Americans living in poverty, it's a bit offensive to refer a group of people as though they dont have opportunities when we have an African American in the white house at this point. Seriously.
Thanks meower, I was going to make this point and now I don't have to!
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oldviolin
Location: esse quam videri Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:46pm |
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hippiechick wrote: How would you plan to do this?
I can't plan anything for anyone else. I can plan for myself. I grew up surrounded by racial hatred. I have learned to be insulated from guilt ridden attempts to make things right without being isolated from every day interpersonal commonalities. Skin color means only as much or as little as your attitude toward it. You're not going to succeed in legislating hearts. Not going to happen. You have an opinion. I accept it. I understand it. I am empathetic towards it. But I also have a difference of opinion as to how all this disentigration of the truths we hold to be self evident has progressed to where there is no man made solution. I am deeply saddened but not defeated every day by the pitiful attempts to build the Tower Of Babel. If you were to work your personal power toward solutions to these problems out there in the world, you might find the grace to actually be a part of the change of heart that it will take to change the world. IOW, be the change that you want to see in the world. I think we both can admire the Mahatma...
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meower
Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:45pm |
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dionysius wrote:
It's also rather off-topic, innit? We're arguing about abortion rights. Basic human, civil and economic rights are different, right? :wink.
(*Sarcasm*—they are part and parcel of the same suite of rights we should be guaranteeing for all women everywhere.)
exactly. at this point i do think it has to do with classism / take care of me and mine and not feel responsible to the other as opposed to racism. When there is racism/sexism/ anti-semitism it needs to be dealt with, but the problems facing women and people today in this part of the world anyway have mainly to do with people only caring about themselves and imediate family. MHO
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dionysius
Location: The People's Republic of Austin Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:39pm |
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meower wrote:Can we slow down with the "black folks" talk here? While I agree that there are lots of African Americans living in poverty, it's a bit offensive to refer a group of people as though they dont have opportunities when we have an African American in the white house at this point. Seriously.
It's also rather off-topic, innit? We're arguing about abortion rights. Basic human, civil and economic rights are different, right? (*Sarcasm*—they are part and parcel of the same suite of rights we should be guaranteeing for all women everywhere.)
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meower
Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:35pm |
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Can we slow down with the "black folks" talk here? While I agree that there are lots of African Americans living in poverty, it's a bit offensive to refer a group of people as though they dont have opportunities when we have an African American in the white house at this point. Seriously.
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kurtster
Location: where fear is not a virtue Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:34pm |
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islander wrote: So do we say the same for the museum guard who was gunned down yesterday? Shall we just tell his family "move on, he knew being a guard was dangerous, and especially so because we all know there are people who deny the holocaust".
Shall we carry this on to other conclusions? Ever had anything stolen? Ever know a victim of violence? Ever know anyone who was raped? I encourage you to share your 'move on' approach with them so that they can get on with their lives and stop engaging in anything that would put them at risk of anything legal or not.< / Snark >
I can say yes to all your questions. And have had to move on. Forgiveness has something to do with that as well as removing the cancer of bitterness. I have been robbed at gun point, have you ? Waking up and getting out of bed has its risks. Yes, the museum guard knowingly ran the risk of being killed when he went to work. Why did he have a gun ? Even Barney Fife had that risk. You're argument is akin to those that enlisted in the military before Desert Storm and protested having to fight when war broke out. "I wouldn't have enlisted if I knew I might have to fight". Ya, right. I am not belittling the value of life. You just cannot control crazy. Nor can you stop it; its the proverbial irresistable force. Doesn't make it right. Just makes it wrong and crazy. EDIT: And Pro Choice doesn't necessarily mean one is pro abortion, it can also mean that its nobody's business but the Doctor's and Patient's. And that is nobody else's business.
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hippiechick
Location: topsy turvy land Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:32pm |
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oldviolin wrote: D, I'm sorry, but you are just being naive here.. IMHO, black folk don't need government handouts and legislative agendas. They need self respect, self reliance, and familial continuity. They need ethics and responsible community awareness. They need to step up to the plate and take a swing. You want to keep them needy it seems. I'm sure that you love people of color every bit as much as I do, but you seem to pity them, while I admire them, and want them to succeed on their own merits so that their self respect is not dependent on what the government is going to give them because the man wants to keep them down...
How would you plan to do this?
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oldviolin
Location: esse quam videri Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:29pm |
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hippiechick wrote: That's not true. I would be happy to have your answers. But if you look at my solution, it pretty much covers the gamut of returning self respect to others, and helping them meet their needs.
If you are empowered, you will take responsibility for yourself. If you are educated, you will have the knowledge required to take responsibility for yourself. If you are employed, you will be able to meet the financial needs of yourself and your family, and you will feel empowered.
D, I'm sorry, but you are just being naive here.. IMHO, black folk don't need government handouts and legislative agendas. They need self respect, self reliance, and familial continuity. They need ethics and responsible community awareness and leadership. They need to step up to the plate and take a swing. You want to keep them needy it seems. I'm sure that you love people of color every bit as much as I do, but you seem to pity them, while I admire them, and want them to succeed on their own merits so that their self respect is not dependent on what the government is going to give them because the man wants to keep them down...
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hippiechick
Location: topsy turvy land Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:26pm |
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arsenault wrote:my administration would take care of all that... good!
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arsenault
Location: long beach cali USandA Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:25pm |
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hippiechick wrote: Why don't you look up the high school graduation rates in cities like Baltimore, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, LA? Look at the unemployment rates. Look at the prison populations. Look at the laws that have been made and the wonderful justice system that can lock you away for a very long time if you can't afford a lawyer to defend yourself.
my administration would take care of all that...
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hippiechick
Location: topsy turvy land Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:22pm |
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oldviolin wrote: You already seem to have your answers. I doubt you want mine. I'm sure the legislative process will make it all right eventually... Of course, it might take a change of hearts minds and attitudes. Where might we find such a potion?
That's not true. I would be happy to have your answers. But if you look at my solution, it pretty much covers the gamut of returning self respect to others, and helping them meet their needs. If you are empowered, you will take responsibility for yourself. If you are educated, you will have the knowledge required to take responsibility for yourself. If you are employed, you will be able to meet the financial needs of yourself and your family, and you will feel empowered.
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hippiechick
Location: topsy turvy land Gender:
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Posted:
Jun 11, 2009 - 1:19pm |
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arsenault wrote:can we really do this? wow... i wish i was in charge of allocating the poverty and the locking up.. we would have a lovely utopian society. i would cruise the streets like a maharajah distributing and withdrawing my largesse from powerless citizens. 'lock him up!'.... 'make her poor!'.... 'release him from poverty.!' but it wouldn't be based on race or creed. it would just depend on my mood. has obama taken over the administration of this program? Why don't you look up the high school graduation rates in cities like Baltimore, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, LA? Look at the unemployment rates. Look at the prison populations. Look at the laws that have been made and the wonderful justice system that can lock you away for a very long time if you can't afford a lawyer to defend yourself.
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