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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Capitalism and Consumerism... now what? Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
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miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 6:10am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
What's astonishing from a European perspective is the constant peddling of a false dichotomy within the US that there is EITHER capitalism OR socialism, yet there is hardly any country in the entire world that doesn't practice some kind of mixed form economy and the US is no exception. Were the dichotomy between unfettered capitalism and a mixed market social welfare economy as clear cut as the CATO pundits constantly preach, you would see it clearly in measures of economic performance, but this is not the case. 
Not only do a huge number of countries outperform the US on other metrics of social well-being but their GDP is also comparable to the US, or at least in the same ball park.  
Seriously, the Nordic model works. Try it some time. As Rasmussen states, it is all founded on a market economy. It is not a soviet style command economy that seems to spook you all out so much.

What is frequently overlooked, and far more important than the relative share of government activity in the overall economy, are other cultural factors: both negative ones, such as corruption, nepotism, but also positive factors, such as respect for the rule of law, etc. You can see that cultural factors play a more decisive role than the actual form of an economy when countries go to war. The Soviet command economy (admittedly with a lot of transfers of material from the Allies) nevertheless managed to organise and push back the Nazi highly industrialised war machine. That is a hell of a feat for an agrarian command economy. In other words, when push comes to shove, even a command economy can work fine if the people want it to

On the other hand, any system will collapse when it is run by a bunch of crooks. Even free market libertarianism is predicated on the assumption that everyone in a free market is going to respect your rights, but that is far from given. A far better approach in my mind is to invest heavily in free top quality education across the board and teach people about civic duty and what makes society tick. You need to get people to buy in to society if you want it to work.

Society - it is a team sport and a functioning society offers individuals a massive amount of freedom and opportunity. A dysfunctional society doesn't and the US is in grave danger of becoming one.
 

coffee thoughts

it's all about distortions of definitions/language and framing to advance literally a theological political and/or religious agenda

the current situation is nothing new, balkanize into two tribes and paint the other tribe as the problem/enemy until they actually begin to believe it

conquer by any means (especially implied force and violence) justifies the ends

tribalism is always an easier sell if one doesn't use critical thought

imagine two circles, one has a p(roblem) in the center, the other an s(olution)

notice which one gets the most attention or sell

if we identify a problem and put the proper label on it then we should turn to a solution

we shouldn't fear problems, they are always going to be with us, so the focus and incentive should be on the solution

if you are signaling or employing violent intentions as a solution that destroys and credibility and trust

harming a peaceful person who disagrees with your belief or philosophy is wrong regardless of who tells you it is necessary

do politicians know what they are doing? has the solution building process become ineffective due to stoking/selling polarization and violence?

compliance through violence against peaceful peeps is a set up for conflict/war and ultimately failure

there are people right now selling elon musk and his paper wealth as a problem

bill gates too, regardless of the solutions they have built based on voluntary participation

the irony is mind-blowing

regards
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 14, 2021 - 10:49pm

 sirdroseph wrote:
 
What's astonishing from a European perspective is the constant peddling of a false dichotomy within the US that there is EITHER capitalism OR socialism, yet there is hardly any country in the entire world that doesn't practice some kind of mixed form economy and the US is no exception. Were the dichotomy between unfettered capitalism and a mixed market social welfare economy as clear cut as the CATO pundits constantly preach, you would see it clearly in measures of economic performance, but this is not the case. 
Not only do a huge number of countries outperform the US on other metrics of social well-being but their GDP is also comparable to the US, or at least in the same ball park.  
Seriously, the Nordic model works. Try it some time. As Rasmussen states, it is all founded on a market economy. It is not a soviet style command economy that seems to spook you all out so much.

What is frequently overlooked, and far more important than the relative share of government activity in the overall economy, are other cultural factors: both negative ones, such as corruption, nepotism, but also positive factors, such as respect for the rule of law, etc. You can see that cultural factors play a more decisive role than the actual form of an economy when countries go to war. The Soviet command economy (admittedly with a lot of transfers of material from the Allies) nevertheless managed to organise and push back the Nazi highly industrialised war machine. That is a hell of a feat for an agrarian command economy. In other words, when push comes to shove, even a command economy can work fine if the people want it to

On the other hand, any system will collapse when it is run by a bunch of crooks. Even free market libertarianism is predicated on the assumption that everyone in a free market is going to respect your rights, but that is far from given. A far better approach in my mind is to invest heavily in free top quality education across the board and teach people about civic duty and what makes society tick. You need to get people to buy in to society if you want it to work.

Society - it is a team sport and a functioning society offers individuals a massive amount of freedom and opportunity. A dysfunctional society doesn't and the US is in grave danger of becoming one.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 14, 2021 - 9:06am

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jan 10, 2021 - 12:52pm

The Mental Disease of Late-Stage Capitalism
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 21, 2020 - 4:42am

 black321 wrote:

 

She's absolutely right. Small biz is getting hammered, mostly locked out of tge cares act, bank lending, don't have access to bond markets...meanwhile the s&p 500 is at record levels. K shaped recovery. Tax their excess profits.
 
Big business will screw you in a cold, impersonal way, but small buz can screw you as bad or worse, because the owner sees a direct, personal, link between that and money in their pocket

 
I'm not sure what that means?
I'm not blaming large cos, just pointing out the obvious re this K shape economic recovery.
those on the upper arm are in a huge economic expansion,
those on the lower a deep depression.
My point was many large cos are getting a huge windfall of profit and cash flow, from both sales lift and margin lift because they don't need to be promotional.
Some employees have gotten hero pay,
but majority of windfall is going to shareholders...see the equity index at record levels.
Im not much of an advocate for income redistribution,
But in this case....
 
I take it then you are probably not a fan of de Blasio{#Wink}
 
 
 
 
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 20, 2020 - 8:58am

 black321 wrote:


 
but majority of windfall is going to shareholders...see the equity index at record levels.
Im not much of an advocate for income redistribution,
But in this case....
 
Nor am I.  Back in the 70's IIRC, we had a windfall profits tax on oil production that addressed some of this.

It worked and did sunset after a period of time.  I don't know how you address it now.  

Most likely it is time for trust busting and break up these Megaliths.  

How goods and services are traded has forever changed now with the pandemic.

JIT or Just In Time inventory management has stopped working, too.  Certain aspects of hospitality, travel and dining are done, gone the way of the buggy whip.

A very large segment of the population is going to have to find new kinds of employment in jobs and areas that do not yet exist.

A new supply chain will be designed with more automation and more AI calling the shots.  Humans become less necessary, especially in production of goods.

The same old problem comes around again.  How do we provide meaningful employment for consumers so they can keep buying goods and services to keep this whole thing working ?

You got me.  

If nothing else this pandemic has gotten in the way of those used to instant gratification.  Now people are going to have to learn how to plan things out and deal with turnaround times and medium term cyclical things.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 20, 2020 - 7:57am



 haresfur wrote:


 black321 wrote:


 Ohmsen wrote:
Tulsi Gabbard introduces bill to tax big tech and big box stores, help small businesses during Covid Crisis

 

She's absolutely right. Small biz is getting hammered, mostly locked out of tge cares act, bank lending, don't have access to bond markets...meanwhile the s&p 500 is at record levels. K shaped recovery. Tax their excess profits.
 
Big business will screw you in a cold, impersonal way, but small buz can screw you as bad or worse, because the owner sees a direct, personal, link between that and money in their pocket

 
I'm not sure what that means?
I'm not blaming large cos, just pointing out the obvious re this K shape economic recovery.
those on the upper arm are in a huge economic expansion,
those on the lower a deep depression.
My point was many large cos are getting a huge windfall of profit and cash flow, from both sales lift and margin lift because they don't need to be promotional.
Some employees have gotten hero pay,
but majority of windfall is going to shareholders...see the equity index at record levels.
Im not much of an advocate for income redistribution,
But in this case....
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 19, 2020 - 1:39pm



 black321 wrote:


 Ohmsen wrote:
Tulsi Gabbard introduces bill to tax big tech and big box stores, help small businesses during Covid Crisis

 

She's absolutely right. Small biz is getting hammered, mostly locked out of tge cares act, bank lending, don't have access to bond markets...meanwhile the s&p 500 is at record levels. K shaped recovery. Tax their excess profits.
 
Big business will screw you in a cold, impersonal way, but small buz can screw you as bad or worse, because the owner sees a direct, personal, link between that and money in their pocket

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 19, 2020 - 7:08am



 Ohmsen wrote:
Tulsi Gabbard introduces bill to tax big tech and big box stores, help small businesses during Covid Crisis

 

She's absolutely right. Small biz is getting hammered, mostly locked out of tge cares act, bank lending, don't have access to bond markets...meanwhile the s&p 500 is at record levels. K shaped recovery. Tax their excess profits.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 19, 2020 - 5:05am

 Ohmsen wrote:
Tulsi Gabbard introduces bill to tax big tech and big box stores, help small businesses during Covid Crisis
 
{#Clap}
Ohmsen

Ohmsen Avatar

Location: Old World
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 19, 2020 - 4:57am

Tulsi Gabbard introduces bill to tax big tech and big box stores, help small businesses during Covid Crisis

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Dec 16, 2020 - 10:41am

Senate report: Opioid industry has paid advocacy groups $65M
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jul 12, 2020 - 8:09am

The Invention of Capitalism: How a Self-Sufficient Peasantry was Whipped Into Industrial Wage Slaves
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 30, 2020 - 6:56pm



 Isabeau wrote:

"Goldman Sachs chief economist, Jan Hatzius, said his team investigated the link between face masks and COVID-19 health and economic outcomes and found a national mask mandate could save the country from a huge economic hit — a point that may grab Trump's attention.
"These calculations imply that a face mask mandate could potentially substitute for lockdowns that would otherwise subtract nearly 5% from GDP," the economist wrote in a note to clients."
-ABC News, June 30, 2020


 
We don't have a mask mandate or recommendations. Getting hot spot resurgence and rapid increases in number of cases in the Melbourne suburbs. Today's local paper had articles calling for easing restrictions on tourism and the hospitality industries. You aren't going to get a tourism industry recovery if you become the next hotspot. 
Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jun 30, 2020 - 5:14pm


"Goldman Sachs chief economist, Jan Hatzius, said his team investigated the link between face masks and COVID-19 health and economic outcomes and found a national mask mandate could save the country from a huge economic hit — a point that may grab Trump's attention.
"These calculations imply that a face mask mandate could potentially substitute for lockdowns that would otherwise subtract nearly 5% from GDP," the economist wrote in a note to clients."
-ABC News, June 30, 2020


islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: May 28, 2020 - 11:29am



 black321 wrote:


 miamizsun wrote:

capitalism is one of those words that people have multiple (or at least a couple of) definitions

sort of like the free market

and there are others

i'm looking for a word

sophistry?

the abuse and misuse seems especially bad in higher ed and acolytes

whatever

if there's violence being threatened or initiated against peaceful peeps, i'm not interested

because human/property rights

hey look! there's the ring of power! we must get control at all costs!
 

I don't think capitalism is actually obtainable. instead, i'm leaning towards a cooperative version of capitalism. many's coops already exist, and thrive...but are threatened by larger cos, with unorganized, and compromised labor.
edit, and the consumer, more interested in cheap, than actual value
 

This, a thousand times. I know Amazon is convenient, but at what cost?  I spent 4 hours with a guy last week designing a system and when I followed up, he said he purchased it online, but still wanted me to install it. I told him we would be happy to do that, but we couldn't provide warranty coverage on the gear. He got pissed and  is shopping for another installer.  We are fortunate to have many customers who aren't like this, but the ones that are  make it really hard. 
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: May 28, 2020 - 8:43am



 miamizsun wrote:

capitalism is one of those words that people have multiple (or at least a couple of) definitions

sort of like the free market

and there are others

i'm looking for a word

sophistry?

the abuse and misuse seems especially bad in higher ed and acolytes

whatever

if there's violence being threatened or initiated against peaceful peeps, i'm not interested

because human/property rights

hey look! there's the ring of power! we must get control at all costs!
 

I don't think capitalism is actually obtainable. instead, i'm leaning towards a cooperative version of capitalism. many's coops already exist, and thrive...but are threatened by larger cos, with unorganized, and compromised labor.
edit, and the consumer, more interested in cheap, than actual value
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: May 28, 2020 - 8:34am

 black321 wrote:
Let's get back to normal! God, I hope not. Perhaps we can use this pandemic to create a better system. Hell, I'd even take capitalism.
 
capitalism is one of those words that people have multiple (or at least a couple of) definitions

sort of like the free market

and there are others

i'm looking for a word

sophistry?

the abuse and misuse seems especially bad in higher ed and acolytes

whatever

if there's violence being threatened or initiated against peaceful peeps, i'm not interested

because human/property rights

hey look! there's the ring of power! we must get control at all costs!
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: May 28, 2020 - 8:18am

Let's get back to normal! God, I hope not. Perhaps we can use this pandemic to create a better system. Hell, I'd even take capitalism.
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: May 28, 2020 - 7:58am



 miamizsun wrote:


i knew it

- ov

==================================================
you going anarchist? mutualist? anti-statist lefty?

been reading kevin, charles johnson and gary chartier?

c4ss.org

or maybe you're just getting in touch with your inner grizzly adams

it happens to all of us sooner or later

just remember, definitions are important, because confusion



 

I'm for a system that works; ours plainly doesn't.
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