Ok so I know a little more. Thousands died tragically that day and the Patriot Act is a direct result of 9 / 11.
How about my question in red ?
You didn't ask a question, you tossed a non-sequitur at me.
There is no such thing as "fully resolved". Unfortunately you'd like that to mean that anything—however absurd, however unsupported by the evidence—could be true. That isn't what it means. It means that there are details we'll never know.
But we know an awful lot, or at least we can. If you have a case to make make it, but ignorance isn't evidence.
2. I have not read the NIST report. 3. I am not an engineer.
You say you have read the NIST report - I have no reason to doubt you.
I have to ask, tho: are all of the architects/engineers/chemists/etc. appearing in the video: deceived? delusional? conspiratorial? just batshit crazy?
I don't know what happened that day. I've always had difficulty believing what we are expected to believe, based on what I saw - on the tube - as it happened. Based on what I saw and heard - in person - in Oklahoma City in 1995; a very similar event about which I still have questions. Based on the opportunity such events created for a vast expansion of state power and intrusiveness. Based on historical instances of those in power creating crisis and manipulating events to their advantage and ostracizing those who doubt.
If the above makes me delusional/conspiratorial/batshit crazy, so be it.
How about another option: poorly informed.
I would like to tell you to read the NIST report, but NIST's web site is down, hostage to the debt ceiling battle. You can read an archived draft of the NIST WTC 7 report at AE911's site. Can't vouch for the chain of custody but until NIST is back online it's what I can find quickly.
If you can't be bothered to read the actual evidence I suppose we could play Who's the Bigger Authority. If a list of people who spent at least five minutes signing a petition trumps the work of an eminent group of academics and engineers who spent 3 years and $40M writing this report then my credibility won't make any difference. But the important things are what was said, not who said them. And that is what should matter here.
I want to repeat another invitation here, an invitation to think this thru. I want you to ponder this: if this group is right, the NIST report authors are dolts/dupes/in on it, and a whole bunch of even less-plausible things have to be true.
It's not enough to say that explosives were used to bring down the WTC buildings. All the rest of the events of the day—the four hijackings, the crash into the Pentagon, the trail of the hijackers—are all linked to this, and those things have to be explained as part of this vast, invisible, airtight conspiracy.
Yes, I'm aware that there is an entire industry geared up to sell you a story about this. It has been 12 years since 9/11/01. Since then the most secretive organizations in our government have seen their dirtiest secrets leak. Think about the scale of the conspiracy required to pull off anything like the events of 9/11/01 as the conspiracy industry would have it, and ask yourself: where are they?
Why haven't any of them come forward, as Edward Snowden and Pvt. Manning did? How is it that the vast army responsible hasn't had a single leak, a single deathbed confession, a single ex-wife ratting on them? How is it that a government that can't keep track of laptops full of social security numbers can keep the most monstrous crime ever committed in our lifetimes a secret?
It's not enough to say "I wouldn't put it past them." You need to think thru just what it would take for them to put it past all of us, and ask yourself why a group that all-powerful couldn't even fake some nukes in Iraq.
2. I have not read the NIST report. 3. I am not an engineer.
You say you have read the NIST report - I have no reason to doubt you.
I have to ask, tho: are all of the architects/engineers/chemists/etc. appearing in the video: deceived? delusional? conspiratorial? just batshit crazy?
I don't know what happened that day. I've always had difficulty believing what we are expected to believe, based on what I saw - on the tube - as it happened. Based on what I saw and heard - in person - in Oklahoma City in 1995; a very similar event about which I still have questions. Based on the opportunity such events created for a vast expansion of state power and intrusiveness. Based on historical instances of those in power creating crisis and manipulating events to their advantage and ostracizing those who doubt.
If the above makes me delusional/conspiratorial/batshit crazy, so be it.
How about another option: poorly informed.
I would like to tell you to read the NIST report, but NIST's web site is down, hostage to the debt ceiling battle. You can read an archived draft of the NIST WTC 7 report at AE911's site. Can't vouch for the chain of custody but until NIST is back online it's what I can find quickly.
If you can't be bothered to read the actual evidence I suppose we could play Who's the Bigger Authority. If a list of people who spent at least five minutes signing a petition trumps the work of an eminent group of academics and engineers who spent 3 years and $40M writing this report then my credibility won't make any difference. But the important things are what was said, not who said them. And that is what should matter here.
I want to repeat another invitation here, an invitation to think this thru. I want you to ponder this: if this group is right, the NIST report authors are dolts/dupes/in on it, and a whole bunch of even less-plausible things have to be true.
It's not enough to say that explosives were used to bring down the WTC buildings. All the rest of the events of the day—the four hijackings, the crash into the Pentagon, the trail of the hijackers—are all linked to this, and those things have to be explained as part of this vast, invisible, airtight conspiracy.
Yes, I'm aware that there is an entire industry geared up to sell you a story about this. It has been 12 years since 9/11/01. Since then the most secretive organizations in our government have seen their dirtiest secrets leak. Think about the scale of the conspiracy required to pull off anything like the events of 9/11/01 as the conspiracy industry would have it, and ask yourself: where are they?
Why haven't any of them come forward, as Edward Snowden and Pvt. Manning did? How is it that the vast army responsible hasn't had a single leak, a single deathbed confession, a single ex-wife ratting on them? How is it that a government that can't keep track of laptops full of social security numbers can keep the most monstrous crime ever committed in our lifetimes a secret?
It's not enough to say "I wouldn't put it past them." You need to think thru just what it would take for them to put it past all of us, and ask yourself why a group that all-powerful couldn't even fake some nukes in Iraq.
Oh wait. I know. You're suggesting that those "moon missions" are actually filmed on a sound stage in Wensleydale, UK.
Umm hmmm. You must think I'm ill-informed. Like the universe doesn't know that Hollyweird has all the secret sound stages. Like the one they have hidden at Area 51.
Yes, we're onto the dark secret now.
I was wrong. Experts have decided it's not Wensleydale. It's like no cheese you've ever tasted.
You're comparing two things that have nothing to do with each other. You call it "the 9 / 11 WTC incident" Okay that keeps making me laugh. And calling this "incident" an unresolved mystery is not being open-minded, unless allowing as how the moon might just be made of cheese is also being open-minded.
The official title of the Korean War is the Korean Conflict. In that spirit I refer to 9 / 11 as an incident.
So you're 100% on board with the official 9 / 11 report also ?
What? Are you suggesting it might not be made of cheese? I thought that's what all these space missions were up to - secretly mining the exotic cheese only found on the moon.
I'm going to say the same thing sird said ... all's I know is that two planes flew into two buildings and three buildings collapsed. After that, its anybody's ball game.
I watched only the first 17 minutes and stopped at the end of the discussion on WT 7. And that is all I'm going to comment on. Any report that has 1500 licensed, certified and working engineers all signing onto is worth consideration. My Father was a State of California Licensed Architect and also a member of the AIA. California basically has the toughest and highest standards for building achitecture and construction on the planet, for obvious and demonstrated reasons. People of this level of skill generally are not chumps or lackies. Not making anything personal here, just sayin' so conversationally.
These 1500 men and women would not be asking these questions if they had answers. The answers are clearly lacking from the official report.
I'll let you worry about the who or why. Its not my concern in any way that rules my life. If you wish to dismiss this as propaganda put out by a bunch of chumps with a specific agenda, go for it. I'm not.
It will just remain an unresolved mystery to me. For some reason you wish to consider it a fully resolved matter. I'm honestly curious for your reasons on that, if indeed my conclusion of the forementioned sentence is correct.
That may indeed be all you know, but you could know a lot more. And once you do...no, it is not "anybody's ball game." If you want to defend your ignorance it can "remain an unresolved mystery" for you, but remaining ignorant nowadays is a willful act.
I bet I could find 1500 architects and engineers worldwide who believe in astrology, but read their petitionto the US Congress. Try and square who they're petitioning to with a demand for an investigation (with subpoena power!) independent of the government. Wrap your head around that logic: we demand the government, using its full investigative power, investigate our conspiracy theory...independently of the government.
Why do they need an investigation at all? If their evidence is so compelling why don't they call for, say, revocations of the licenses of the NIST report authors, and prosecution for those responsible for the demolition?
Because that would require that they make a case, and state a premise that can be verified or proved false. Setting aside the absurdity of that case, it means there would be a final judgement on their claims. And then the fun would be over, and Richard Gage would have to go get a real job.
Ok so I know a little more. Thousands died tragically that day and the Patriot Act is a direct result of 9 / 11.
So its ok for Obama to hire a truther, but not ok for me to simply call the 9 / 11 WTC incident an unresolved mystery, imo, without adding any spin ?
I'm having a hard time not laughing.
You're comparing two things that have nothing to do with each other. You call it "the 9 / 11 WTC incident" Okay that keeps making me laugh. And calling this "incident" an unresolved mystery is not being open-minded, unless allowing as how the moon might just be made of cheese is also being open-minded.
I'm going to say the same thing sird said ... all's I know is that two planes flew into two buildings and three buildings collapsed. After that, its anybody's ball game.
I watched only the first 17 minutes and stopped at the end of the discussion on WT 7. And that is all I'm going to comment on. Any report that has 1500 licensed, certified and working engineers all signing onto is worth consideration. My Father was a State of California Licensed Architect and also a member of the AIA. California basically has the toughest and highest standards for building achitecture and construction on the planet, for obvious and demonstrated reasons. People of this level of skill generally are not chumps or lackies. Not making anything personal here, just sayin' so conversationally.
These 1500 men and women would not be asking these questions if they had answers. The answers are clearly lacking from the official report.
I'll let you worry about the who or why. Its not my concern in any way that rules my life. If you wish to dismiss this as propaganda put out by a bunch of chumps with a specific agenda, go for it. I'm not.
It will just remain an unresolved mystery to me. For some reason you wish to consider it a fully resolved matter. I'm honestly curious for your reasons on that, if indeed my conclusion of the forementioned sentence is correct.
That may indeed be all you know, but you could know a lot more. And once you do...no, it is not "anybody's ball game." If you want to defend your ignorance it can "remain an unresolved mystery" for you, but remaining ignorant nowadays is a willful act.
I bet I could find 1500 architects and engineers worldwide who believe in astrology, but read their petitionto the US Congress. Try and square who they're petitioning to with a demand for an investigation (with subpoena power!) independent of the government. Wrap your head around that logic: we demand the government, using its full investigative power, investigate our conspiracy theory...independently of the government.
Why do they need an investigation at all? If their evidence is so compelling why don't they call for, say, revocations of the licenses of the NIST report authors, and prosecution for those responsible for the demolition?
Because that would require that they make a case, and state a premise that can be verified or proved false. Setting aside the absurdity of that case, it means there would be a final judgement on their claims. And then the fun would be over, and Richard Gage would have to go get a real job.
1. I did watch the video. 2. I have not read the NIST report. 3. I am not an engineer.
You say you have read the NIST report - I have no reason to doubt you.
I have to ask, tho: are all of the architects/engineers/chemists/etc. appearing in the video: deceived? delusional? conspiratorial? just batshit crazy?
I don't know what happened that day. I've always had difficulty believing what we are expected to believe, based on what I saw - on the tube - as it happened. Based on what I saw and heard - in person - in Oklahoma City in 1995; a very similar event about which I still have questions. Based on the opportunity such events created for a vast expansion of state power and intrusiveness. Based on historical instances of those in power creating crisis and manipulating events to their advantage and ostracizing those who doubt.
If the above makes me delusional/conspiratorial/batshit crazy, so be it.
It is nothing of the kind. It is the same package of inuendoes, half-truths, and outright lies we've been hearing from the conspiracy industry since 9/11/2001.
It starts with one of the favorite gambits, the collapse of WTC 7, and repeats the same false claims the conspiracy industry has been spewing all along—that the fires in WTC 7 were minor, that the damage from the crashes was slight, that the collapse took very little time. All of these are false, and easily proven so. Here's a good place to start your own (no doubt thoughtful and rigorous) investigation into these claims.
It continues with out-of-context quotes from the NIST report about the collapse of WTC 1 & 2, which I've read. (Have you?) There are the usual long-debunked claims of molten steel free-fall collapses.
There is absolutely nothing new here, no fresh evidence, no new information at all. Just the usual insistence that some ominous truth (which they never reveal) must be being covered up.
I'm going to repeat the question no conspiracy theorist has ever dared answer, even tho they all insist the answer is obvious: what do you think happened?
Tell us what happened. Don't just insist that some other story is false, tell us what did happen. I want you to put forth a theory that can be verified, proved true or false. If the fires caused by the impacts of airliners didn't bring down the buildings, what did, and how was this arranged without anyone seeing it?
If you want an investigation that isn't tainted by involvement with the government do one. Don't insist that someone else (especially the government that is blamed—only by insinuation, never outright—for the collapses) do it. That government already did one. It was exhaustive. It was conducted by people far more knowledgeable than anyone in this video, eminent folks in engineering and academia. You don't believe it. Why would you believe another one?
I could go on and on, and in earlier posts I have. I've been to the bottom of the rabbit hole you're peeking out of. If you're not interested in reading all that I'm not interested in repeating it.
But I'm also not interested in seeing this toxic hoax spread. So make your claim..
1. I did watch the video. 2. I have not read the NIST report. 3. I am not an engineer.
You say you have read the NIST report - I have no reason to doubt you.
I have to ask, tho: are all of the architects/engineers/chemists/etc. appearing in the video: deceived? delusional? conspiratorial? just batshit crazy?
I don't know what happened that day. I've always had difficulty believing what we are expected to believe, based on what I saw - on the tube - as it happened. Based on what I saw and heard - in person - in Oklahoma City in 1995; a very similar event about which I still have questions. Based on the opportunity such events created for a vast expansion of state power and intrusiveness. Based on historical instances of those in power creating crisis and manipulating events to their advantage and ostracizing those who doubt.
If the above makes me delusional/conspiratorial/batshit crazy, so be it.
I can say that I did not participate in any of the original discussions here regarding 9 / 11. I saw too much mud and vitriol flying around whenever I peaked in to look over the years to even bother.
As a matter of fact, yesterday was the first time I have bothered to comment on the subject, other than to say many times prior that I am neither a birther or a truther. My few comments on the matter of truther were to point out that Obama knowingly hired a self acknowledged truther and communist to be his Green Czar, Van Jones as part of his White House staff.
Everyone here who supported Obama in the beginning supported and defended his decision to hire Jones even when these two things were known about Jones. There was even vehement derision of Glenn Beck for leading the charge to remove Jones. Thank God, Beck succeeded. IIRC, I was just about the only one here who openly objected to Jones on the basis of him being a truther and communist and trashed Obama for knowingly hiring someone like Jones. Of course, I was immediately called a racist among other things.
So its ok for Obama to hire a truther, but not ok for me to simply call the 9 / 11 WTC incident an unresolved mystery, imo, without adding any spin ?
What kind of standard is in place here to allow that to happen ?
You challenged anybody who doubted that this propaganda was anything but "straight up science" to view it, and preemptively denied the validity of anyone's skepticism unless they were willing to watch the movie. Sorry, but my skepticism doesn't need to sit though minutes or hours of BS to be valid.
I do take my own advice, which is why I won't waste time viewing such propaganda while reserving the right to call it what it is. The reason people like L8 and I chime in when this nonsense pops up periodically is because there are already too many deluded people who buy into it. The skeptics of the world, from James Randi to Penn and Teller, to Robert Park, need all the help they can get to counter the rising tide of pseudoscience.
As for your second point, be a troll if you like. You won't be the first.
That is correct and I stand by that statement word for word. I have no problem with your skepticism as long as you watched the video. So I am not walking back one iota on my initial post. You are trying to insinuate that I thought the video was the gospel and that this was irrefutable proof that this was a conspiracy of preset demolition, I never said or even implied such a thing. The only thing that I said was the content of the video was nothing but straight up science delivered by experts in the architectural and building construction field and that is exactly what it was. Just to refresh here is a cut and past of my original comments:
This is nothing but straight up science by nothing but experts. Either watch it or don't. You are welcome to comment and make snide remarks all you want, but if you did not watch the video, your remarks have as much weight and validity as many of the crazy conspiracy theories that we all like to make fun of:
I stand by that, but it sounds like there has been extensive back and forth on the subject that I was not involved in because quite frankly 9-11 conspiracies have never interested me that much. I see literally 20+ various post on one type of conspiracy or another every day and I only post the ones that I bothered to read and thought were interesting. If you assume that I automatically think that all of the conspiracies are necessarily true just because I find them interesting and post them, that is on you. I assume nothing to be true or untrue without absolute proof or validation by personal experience and there are few things I even care that deeply enough about to do anything to acquire that proof.
I did not tell you to view it, only not to respond unless you did. I do not want you to waste your time as you evidently are by replying to my post on this subject. Perhaps you should take your own advice. You might even say that this type of exchange would encourage me to post topics like this just to irritate you and for no other reason. Heck, someone may even make the accusation that I may have even done such a thing in the past, all I can say is that is theoretically possible.
Nice try on walking back your initial post.
You challenged anybody who doubted that this propaganda was anything but "straight up science" to view it, and preemptively denied the validity of anyone's skepticism unless they were willing to watch the movie. Sorry, but my skepticism doesn't need to sit though minutes or hours of BS to be valid.
I do take my own advice, which is why I won't waste time viewing such propaganda while reserving the right to call it what it is. The reason people like L8 and I chime in when this nonsense pops up periodically is because there are already too many deluded people who buy into it. The skeptics of the world, from James Randi to Penn and Teller, to Robert Park, need all the help they can get to counter the rising tide of pseudoscience.
As for your second point, be a troll if you like. You won't be the first.
They have signatories on their online petition that are psychology majors, electrical engineers, semiconductor technology engineers, etc. You tell me how someone with a psychology degree becomes a "licensed, certified working engineer"?
As Robert Park said, a PhD is not an innoculation against foolishness.
I'll second that. The topic has been debated here(and elsewhere) ad nauseum. 12 years later still trying to solve mysteries that've already been solved.
I work in a building full of aerospace stress and damage tolerance engineers and not-a-one of them has a doubt about what brought down the towers, any of them. That someone here thinks this is worth another go only shows that they have wayyyy too much time on their hands.
Okay that keeps making me laugh.
