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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Women Earn Less, Period Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
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Alchemist

Alchemist Avatar

Location: San Jose, CA
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 8, 2009 - 7:26pm

 BillnDollarBaby wrote:
Sorry, but here's what I got out of this...  Men will always be better employees because they are worse parents than women.  If this is the norm, more men need to step up and take responsibility for their families.

Just because I may, one day have children does not give anyone the right to pay me less.  I understand that this FPA will probably succeed no better than AA.  But I am damn sick and tired of men telling me that I don't deserve equal pay because I am a woman and may not be as good as an employee as a man.  Pay, promotions and all that should be based on merit and ACTUAL performance, not out of date stereotypes.  I have always been a top performer at work and have always made less than my male counterparts.  I work in a male dominated industry and pay for it, in lost pay, every year.
 
I completely agree that pay should be based solely on merit.  I am not suggesting that a woman should receive less pay than a man for identical performance in an identical job.  And I understand how such discrimination would make one boiling mad.

I don't think that invalidates any of my points, though.  I think passing a law like this would not only fail to solve the problem, it would cause new ones.


(former member)

(former member) Avatar



Posted: Jan 8, 2009 - 12:29pm

 bokey wrote:

I ignored this yesterday after you went off and told me not to tell you to STFU. Since I didn't  and would never have thought of doing that, I'm going to continue to ignore it( with this one exception).

 My comment was obviously meant to be a blanket statement that you chose to take personally.Sorry that you did.

 Over and  out.
 
The problem with blanket statements is that there are real, live, breathing, feeling people under those blankets.   And that blanket was thrown in response to my post, over a group I am a member of, so yeah, I took it personally.  Don't apologize to me for "taking it wrong;" that's not your place.  Apologize for unitentionally offending.  Or don't.  That's your businesss.
bokey

bokey Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 8, 2009 - 9:26am

 BillnDollarBaby wrote:
 bokey wrote:

 I replied while I was doing about 4 other things and read "VA" not "AA" so my entire response is based on an incorrect assumption.

 edit-umm, never mind, it was correctly based on the statement highlighted in bold.



Your telling me to STFU becasue I don't agree with your position, was still way, way out of line.   I feel that you owe me an apolgy for that.   I honestly expected more from you, Bokey.   I always thought you were a better person that to resort to abusive BS in a debate.

 
I ignored this yesterday after you went off and told me not to tell you to STFU. Since I didn't  and would never have thought of doing that, I'm going to continue to ignore it( with this one exception).

 My comment was obviously meant to be a blanket statement that you chose to take personally. Sorry that you did.

 Over and  out.

MayBaby

MayBaby Avatar

Location: Savannah, Georgia
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 8, 2009 - 8:47am

I saw that too, M. Thanks for posting it.
p4jkafla wrote:

Thats what I read as well. Its OK to discriminate based on stereotypes.

And for anyone thats interested...

Before and After: Gender Transitions, Human Capital, and Workplace Experiences

Kristen Schilt, University of Chicago
Matthew Wiswall, New York University

A BEJEAP Contributions1 article.

Abstract

We use the workplace experiences of transgender people – individuals who change their gender typically with hormone therapy and surgery – to provide new insights into the long-standing question of what role gender plays in shaping workplace outcomes. Using an original survey of male-to-female and female-to-male transgender people, we document the earnings and employment experiences of transgender people before and after their gender transitions. We find that while transgender people have the same human capital after their transitions, their workplace experiences often change radically. We estimate that average earnings for female-to-male transgender workers increase slightly following their gender transitions, while average earnings for male-to-female transgender workers fall by nearly 1/3. This finding is consistent with qualitative evidence that for many male-to-female workers, becoming a woman often brings a loss of authority, harassment, and termination, but that for many female-to-male workers, becoming a man often brings an increase in respect and authority. These findings challenge the omitted variables explanations for the gender pay gap and illustrate the often hidden and subtle processes that produce gender inequality in workplace outcomes.

Submitted: August 8, 2007 · Accepted: July 29, 2008 · Published: September 11, 2008

 

http://www.bepress.com/bejeap/vol8/iss1/art39/

 

A new study looks at this problem in a wonderfully inventive way. In previous studies, academics have looked at variables like years of education and the effects of outside forces such as nondiscrimination policies. But gender was always the constant. What if it didn't have to be? What if you could construct an experiment in which a random sample of adults unexpectedly changes sexes before work one day? Kristen Schilt, a sociologist at the University of Chicago and Matthew Wiswall, an economist at New York University, couldn't quite pull off that study. But they have come up with the first systematic analysis of the experiences of transgender people in the labor force. And what they found suggests that raw discrimination remains potent in U.S. companies.

Schilt and Wiswall found that women who become men (known as FTMs) do significantly better than men who become women (MTFs). MTFs in the study earned, on average, 32% less after they transitioned from male to female, even after the authors controlled for factors like education levels. FTMs earned an average of 1.5% more. The study was just published in the Berkeley Electronic Press' peer-reviewed Journal of Economic Analysis & Policy.

The men and women in the study had already gone to school and made their career choices. Some of them changed jobs after they transitioned, and some stayed in the same jobs. Some were out to their employers; others started completely new lives as members of the opposite sex. Regardless, the overall pattern was very clear: newly minted women were punished, and newly minted men got a little bump-up in pay.

Still, the paper is complex, so it's useful to step back first and look at where the larger debate over the gender wage gap stands. After all, isn't that gap narrowing to the point of obscurity? Actually, no. The Russell Sage Foundation published the most authoritative work on the gender wage gap in 2006, The Declining Significance of Gender?. In the book, Francine Blau and Lawrence Kahn, both Cornell economists, show that the average full-time female worker in the U.S. earns about 79% of what the average full-time male worker makes. Women employed full-time actually tend to have slightly more education than men, but women are still more likely to work in clerical and service jobs. Blau and Kahn say women do make different choices when they decide on college majors and jobs — even highly educated women more often choose "female" occupations that pay less — but the authors also note that discrimination persists. As one example, they cite a 2000 study which found that when symphony orchestras switched to blind auditions — those in which the musicians play behind a screen — women had a significantly better chance of being hired.

The good news is that the gender wage gap has narrowed. In 1978, full-time women workers earned just 61% of what full-time men did, compared to 79% now. But what to make of the big difference in the experiences of those transgenders who have become women versus those who have become men? Schilt, one of the authors of the new article, interviewed a female-to-male transgender attorney a few years ago. As a younger attorney, the lawyer had been Susan; now he was Thomas. He told Schilt that after he transitioned from female to male, another lawyer mistakenly believed that Susan had been fired and replaced by Thomas. The other lawyer commended the firm's boss for the replacement. He said Susan had been incompetent; "the new guy," he added, was "just delightful." (Later, Ben Barres, an FTM neurobiology professor at Stanford, told The Wall Street Journal of a similar experience. An attendee at one of his lectures leaned over to a colleague and said, "Ben Barres' work is much better than his sister's.")

Such stories help explain an interesting feature of transgender life: men who want to change outward gender wait an average of 10 years longer to transition than women, according to the new article by Schilt and Wiswall. "MTFs attempt to preserve their male advantage at work for as long as possible," they write, "whereas FTMs may seek to shed their female gender identity more quickly." It should be noted that many transgender men do experience discrimination, especially if they are short and if they don't look convincingly male. Also, it's harder for MTFs to pass than FTMs: men who become women still have large hands and bigger frames. The less-convincing appearance of MTFs probably explains part of the reason they earn so much less after they transition. Still, the new paper suggests an entirely new vein of research in the field. It also suggests that if you're thinking about changing sexes, you should carefully consider the economic consequence...

 


p4jkafla

p4jkafla Avatar

Location: New England, USA
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 8, 2009 - 8:37am

 BillnDollarBaby wrote:


Sorry, but here's what I got out of this...  Men will always be better employees because they are worse parents than women.  If this is the norm, more men need to step up and take responsibility for their families.

Just because I may, one day have children does not give anyone the right to pay me less.  I understand that this FPA will probably succeed no better than AA.  But I am damn sick and tired of men telling me that I don't deserve equal pay because I am a woman and may not be as good as an employee as a man.  Pay, promotions and all that should be based on merit and ACTUAL performance, not out of date stereotypes.  I have always been a top performer at work and have always made less than my male counterparts.  I work in a male dominated industry and pay for it, in lost pay, every year.
 
Thats what I read as well. Its OK to discriminate based on stereotypes.

And for anyone thats interested...

Before and After: Gender Transitions, Human Capital, and Workplace Experiences

Kristen Schilt, University of Chicago
Matthew Wiswall, New York University

A BEJEAP Contributions1 article.

Abstract

We use the workplace experiences of transgender people – individuals who change their gender typically with hormone therapy and surgery – to provide new insights into the long-standing question of what role gender plays in shaping workplace outcomes. Using an original survey of male-to-female and female-to-male transgender people, we document the earnings and employment experiences of transgender people before and after their gender transitions. We find that while transgender people have the same human capital after their transitions, their workplace experiences often change radically. We estimate that average earnings for female-to-male transgender workers increase slightly following their gender transitions, while average earnings for male-to-female transgender workers fall by nearly 1/3. This finding is consistent with qualitative evidence that for many male-to-female workers, becoming a woman often brings a loss of authority, harassment, and termination, but that for many female-to-male workers, becoming a man often brings an increase in respect and authority. These findings challenge the omitted variables explanations for the gender pay gap and illustrate the often hidden and subtle processes that produce gender inequality in workplace outcomes.

Submitted: August 8, 2007 · Accepted: July 29, 2008 · Published: September 11, 2008

 

http://www.bepress.com/bejeap/vol8/iss1/art39/

 

Also: From Time Magazine

If Women Were More Like Men: Why Females Earn Less

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One of the oldest debates in contemporary social science is why women earn less than men. Conservatives tend to argue that because women anticipate taking time off to raise children, they have fewer incentives to work hard in school, and they choose careers where on-the-job training and long hours are less important. Liberals tend to focus on sex discrimination as the explanation. Obviously some mixture of those factors is at work, but academics have long been frustrated when they try to estimate which force is greater: women's choices or men's discrimination.

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A new study looks at this problem in a wonderfully inventive way. In previous studies, academics have looked at variables like years of education and the effects of outside forces such as nondiscrimination policies. But gender was always the constant. What if it didn't have to be? What if you could construct an experiment in which a random sample of adults unexpectedly changes sexes before work one day? Kristen Schilt, a sociologist at the University of Chicago and Matthew Wiswall, an economist at New York University, couldn't quite pull off that study. But they have come up with the first systematic analysis of the experiences of transgender people in the labor force. And what they found suggests that raw discrimination remains potent in U.S. companies.

Schilt and Wiswall found that women who become men (known as FTMs) do significantly better than men who become women (MTFs). MTFs in the study earned, on average, 32% less after they transitioned from male to female, even after the authors controlled for factors like education levels. FTMs earned an average of 1.5% more. The study was just published in the Berkeley Electronic Press' peer-reviewed Journal of Economic Analysis & Policy.

The men and women in the study had already gone to school and made their career choices. Some of them changed jobs after they transitioned, and some stayed in the same jobs. Some were out to their employers; others started completely new lives as members of the opposite sex. Regardless, the overall pattern was very clear: newly minted women were punished, and newly minted men got a little bump-up in pay.

Still, the paper is complex, so it's useful to step back first and look at where the larger debate over the gender wage gap stands. After all, isn't that gap narrowing to the point of obscurity? Actually, no. The Russell Sage Foundation published the most authoritative work on the gender wage gap in 2006, The Declining Significance of Gender?. In the book, Francine Blau and Lawrence Kahn, both Cornell economists, show that the average full-time female worker in the U.S. earns about 79% of what the average full-time male worker makes. Women employed full-time actually tend to have slightly more education than men, but women are still more likely to work in clerical and service jobs. Blau and Kahn say women do make different choices when they decide on college majors and jobs — even highly educated women more often choose "female" occupations that pay less — but the authors also note that discrimination persists. As one example, they cite a 2000 study which found that when symphony orchestras switched to blind auditions — those in which the musicians play behind a screen — women had a significantly better chance of being hired.

The good news is that the gender wage gap has narrowed. In 1978, full-time women workers earned just 61% of what full-time men did, compared to 79% now. But what to make of the big difference in the experiences of those transgenders who have become women versus those who have become men? Schilt, one of the authors of the new article, interviewed a female-to-male transgender attorney a few years ago. As a younger attorney, the lawyer had been Susan; now he was Thomas. He told Schilt that after he transitioned from female to male, another lawyer mistakenly believed that Susan had been fired and replaced by Thomas. The other lawyer commended the firm's boss for the replacement. He said Susan had been incompetent; "the new guy," he added, was "just delightful." (Later, Ben Barres, an FTM neurobiology professor at Stanford, told The Wall Street Journal of a similar experience. An attendee at one of his lectures leaned over to a colleague and said, "Ben Barres' work is much better than his sister's.")

Such stories help explain an interesting feature of transgender life: men who want to change outward gender wait an average of 10 years longer to transition than women, according to the new article by Schilt and Wiswall. "MTFs attempt to preserve their male advantage at work for as long as possible," they write, "whereas FTMs may seek to shed their female gender identity more quickly." It should be noted that many transgender men do experience discrimination, especially if they are short and if they don't look convincingly male. Also, it's harder for MTFs to pass than FTMs: men who become women still have large hands and bigger frames. The less-convincing appearance of MTFs probably explains part of the reason they earn so much less after they transition. Still, the new paper suggests an entirely new vein of research in the field. It also suggests that if you're thinking about changing sexes, you should carefully consider the economic consequences.

 

 

 

 






MayBaby

MayBaby Avatar

Location: Savannah, Georgia
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 8, 2009 - 8:29am

Pay should be based on Merit, period

I can think of only one good thing about women earning less: Companies can find somewhat less expensive labor here instead of outsourcing in another country. Sure, it's cheaper to outsource but maybe we get to keep a few jobs here? Just a thought...
(former member)

(former member) Avatar



Posted: Jan 8, 2009 - 8:09am

 callum wrote:

Veterans have allready been trained to follow orders and unquestioningly work in a team uni, whatever role they played in the military.  Perhaps this is what people are looking for.

 
They can have that without an organization being told that they HAVE to hire them.

Certain organizations give preference to vets in hiring.  I worked with a guy, retired military who was suing the local PD because he didn't get a job he applied for and they engaged in preferential hiring for vets.  He won his case, including employment, back pay and an additional financial settlement.  He won on the merit that, as a veteran, he should have been hired instead of the non-vet who was hired.  This man cheated on his wife with a sixteen-year old and was terminated from his employment where we worked for stealing.  So there is now a cop in a certain city who is an adulterous, dishonest pedophile.  But he got that job because he was a vet.  To me, he is the embodiment of why preferential hiring for any reason is a bad, bad idea.

Edit: He was around 45 when he was dating the 16 year old.  He brought her to work and introduced her to us as being 19.  Too bad she went to school with people I knew.  She was a sophmore in HS, and she definitely wasn't over 18.

A law to enforce fair pay, like the FPA is not the same as preferential hiring.  If there was a law guaranteeing this guy equal pay after he got the job on his own merit, I wouldn't be so freaked out by the concept.  But his hiring made me question the integrity of the entire PD in that city.  How many other assholes, that they didn't want to hire got jobs for no other reason than preferential hiring?  AA is no better.  It forces companies to not always hire the best candidate.  But it did bring to light the fact that fully qualified candidates were being turned down in favor of non-minority candidates, same with vets in the cases where they were being turned away because of their military status.  A good idea with no real way to properly enforce it.  Sad really.  Here's to hoping that the FPA passes and is enforceable.  I for one, would like to know that in a job offer, I am getting an offer based on me, not my uterus.


(former member)

(former member) Avatar



Posted: Jan 8, 2009 - 8:00am

 Alchemist wrote:

I didn't miss it - I quoted it!  It says the law would outlaw discrimination in pay for jobs that are equal, not for jobs that are performed equally.  If one wants to compare aggregate salaries, then one must consider aggregate performance.  For instance, on the average, women have more duties raising a household then men.  You can say that shouldn't be the case, but today it simply is.  This means on the average women aren't going to be able to stay as late at the office when the next crisis occurs.  They are less likely to be the one to get on a plane and deal with some overseas issue.  They're more likely the one who will need to attend to their sick child.  I'm not saying any of this is bad, but management will tend to remember who got them out of the last jam come review time.  For this reason (as one example) one should expect that average salaries for women will be less than for men.  Again, we're talking about averages here, obviously not all women have family commitments.

The problem with laws like this is they generally accomplish the opposite of what they attempt.  Raising the cost of female labor will result in fewer females having jobs.  There most definitely has been discrimination in the past.  When my mother in law went to medical school, there were only 5% women enrolled.  When my wife did the same there were 20%.  Now it's 50/50.  The market takes care of inefficiencies, and passing over qualified women is a perfect example.  Recall that it's only been a few generations that women have been in the job market in significant numbers.  The inequalities of the past are being corrected by the market without draconian new laws that will ultimately benefit only lawyers.
 

Sorry, but here's what I got out of this...  Men will always be better employees because they are worse parents than women.  If this is the norm, more men need to step up and take responsibility for their families.

Just because I may, one day have children does not give anyone the right to pay me less.  I understand that this FPA will probably succeed no better than AA.  But I am damn sick and tired of men telling me that I don't deserve equal pay because I am a woman and may not be as good as an employee as a man.  Pay, promotions and all that should be based on merit and ACTUAL performance, not out of date stereotypes.  I have always been a top performer at work and have always made less than my male counterparts.  I work in a male dominated industry and pay for it, in lost pay, every year.

In my family, I have never seen this situation that you present.  I have seen parents who work opposite shifts to make sure one or the other was always home with the kids.  I have seen parents who take turns taking a personal day to take care of a sick kid.  I have seen divorced parents "play nice" and coordinate their schedules for the sake of the raising of their children together, despite their separation.  I have seen aunts, uncles and grandparents pitch in to help out a parent who couldn't take a day off.  We all learned how to balance work and family from my grandparents.  Even when he was working two full time jobs, my grandfather did as much as he could for, and spent as much time as he could with his children.  Later in life, he traveled for work... he took the family along as often as it was feasible.  And my grandmother always worked outside the home... even in the fourties and fifties.  My grandfather and she made it work.  With five kids and ten grandchildren, if they can, anyone can.

callum

callum Avatar

Location: its wet, windy and chilly....take a guess
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 8, 2009 - 7:53am

 BillnDollarBaby wrote:


I don't think AA and the FPA are payback.  They are trying to right a wrong.  No one is saying there should be payback for the past, but that the future should be better.  Again, I agree that AA is faulty and FPA probably will be too, if it even passes.

As far as saying that anyone who chose not to go into the military should STFU, is just plain wrong.  Honestly, Bokey, I am rather insulted by that.  I have just as much right to speak my mind as any veteran.  With the exception of those who were drafted, it is a CHOICE.  I have 8 immediate family members who are or were military.  Of those 8, only 2 were draftees - one in Viet Nam, one in WWII.   Edit:  Just to clarify, whether I wanted to or needed to was never a  question for me.  I was diagnosed with a disabling disease at 18.  Whether I wanted to or needed to, they wouldn't have taken me.  Am I less of a citizen because I never had a chance to decide whether the military was or was not good for me?

I have great respect for the military. My family is a military bunch.  Pick a branch, a war or a generation and we've been there, done that.   I was only questioning the validity of ANY preferential hiring procedure.  Do vets deserve kudos and special benefits for the work they do?  Yes. The VA loans, medical services, education benefits, etc.  Yes.   I was only questioning whether military service makes you more qualified for a job anymore than any other category.  I don't believe it does unless your job in the military gives you more experience in the field in question.  My cousin's time in a boiler room on an aircraft carrier does not help his current career as a cop, or his past one as a truck driver, beyond the fact that the police are a para-military organization.  My uncle's years in the CG does further his current career as a Customs Agent, it did not in his past one, also as a truck driver.  Kindly do not tell me to STFU again.
Edit: If we really care about our vets, we can let them get their own jobs and spend that money on medical care.  Have you ever seen the inside of a VA hospital?  Its an embarrasment to this country the way those things are run.  I have had VA hospitals and clinics as clients and am ashamed at the state many are in.  When the Walter Reed report hit the news, sadly, I wasn't even surprised.
 
Veterans have allready been trained to follow orders and unquestioningly work in a team uni, whatever role they played in the military.  Perhaps this is what people are looking for.
(former member)

(former member) Avatar



Posted: Jan 8, 2009 - 7:49am

 bokey wrote:

 I replied while I was doing about 4 other things and read "VA" not "AA" so my entire response is based on an incorrect assumption.

 edit-umm, never mind, it was correctly based on the statement highlighted in bold.



Your telling me to STFU becasue I don't agree with your position, was still way, way out of line.  I feel that you owe me an apolgy for that.  I honestly expected more from you, Bokey.  I always thought you were a better person that to resort to abusive BS in a debate.
p4jkafla

p4jkafla Avatar

Location: New England, USA
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 8, 2009 - 7:28am

 Alchemist wrote:

I didn't miss it - I quoted it!  It says the law would outlaw discrimination in pay for jobs that are equal, not for jobs that are performed equally.  If one wants to compare aggregate salaries, then one must consider aggregate performance.  For instance, on the average, women have more duties raising a household then men.  You can say that shouldn't be the case, but today it simply is.  This means on the average women aren't going to be able to stay as late at the office when the next crisis occurs.  They are less likely to be the one to get on a plane and deal with some overseas issue.  They're more likely the one who will need to attend to their sick child.  I'm not saying any of this is bad, but management will tend to remember who got them out of the last jam come review time.  For this reason (as one example) one should expect that average salaries for women will be less than for men.  Again, we're talking about averages here, obviously not all women have family commitments.

The problem with laws like this is they generally accomplish the opposite of what they attempt.  Raising the cost of female labor will result in fewer females having jobs.  There most definitely has been discrimination in the past.  When my mother in law went to medical school, there were only 5% women enrolled.  When my wife did the same there were 20%.  Now it's 50/50.  The market takes care of inefficiencies, and passing over qualified women is a perfect example.  Recall that it's only been a few generations that women have been in the job market in significant numbers.  The inequalities of the past are being corrected by the market without draconian new laws that will ultimately benefit only lawyers.
 
OMG...thats all I can say.

Alchemist

Alchemist Avatar

Location: San Jose, CA
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 8, 2009 - 1:15am

 callum wrote:

That clause in bold is the answer....how did you miss that?
 
I didn't miss it - I quoted it!  It says the law would outlaw discrimination in pay for jobs that are equal, not for jobs that are performed equally.  If one wants to compare aggregate salaries, then one must consider aggregate performance.  For instance, on the average, women have more duties raising a household then men.  You can say that shouldn't be the case, but today it simply is.  This means on the average women aren't going to be able to stay as late at the office when the next crisis occurs.  They are less likely to be the one to get on a plane and deal with some overseas issue.  They're more likely the one who will need to attend to their sick child.  I'm not saying any of this is bad, but management will tend to remember who got them out of the last jam come review time.  For this reason (as one example) one should expect that average salaries for women will be less than for men.  Again, we're talking about averages here, obviously not all women have family commitments.

The problem with laws like this is they generally accomplish the opposite of what they attempt.  Raising the cost of female labor will result in fewer females having jobs.  There most definitely has been discrimination in the past.  When my mother in law went to medical school, there were only 5% women enrolled.  When my wife did the same there were 20%.  Now it's 50/50.  The market takes care of inefficiencies, and passing over qualified women is a perfect example.  Recall that it's only been a few generations that women have been in the job market in significant numbers.  The inequalities of the past are being corrected by the market without draconian new laws that will ultimately benefit only lawyers.

bokey

bokey Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 7, 2009 - 8:17am

 BillnDollarBaby wrote:


I don't think AA and the FPA are payback.   They are trying to right a wrong.   No one is saying there should be payback for the past, but that the future should be better.   Again, I agree that AA is faulty and FPA probably will be too, if it even passes.

As far as saying that anyone who chose not to go into the military should STFU, is just plain wrong.   Honestly, Bokey, I am rather insulted by that.   I have just as much right to speak my mind as any veteran.   With the exception of those who were drafted, it is a CHOICE.   I have 8 immediate family members who are or were military.   Of those 8, only 2 were draftees - one in Viet Nam, one in WWII.    Edit:  Just to clarify, whether I wanted to or needed to was never a  question for me.   I was diagnosed with a disabling disease at 18.   Whether I wanted to or needed to, they wouldn't have taken me.   Am I less of a citizen because I never had a chance to decide whether the military was or was not good for me?

I have great respect for the military.  My family is a military bunch.   Pick a branch, a war or a generation and we've been there, done that.    I was only questioning the validity of ANY preferential hiring procedure.   Do vets deserve kudos and special benefits for the work they do?   Yes.  The VA loans,  medical services, education benefits, etc.   Yes.    I was only questioning whether military service makes you more qualified for a job anymore than any other category.   I don't believe it does unless your job in the military gives you more experience in the field in question.   My cousin's time in a boiler room on an aircraft carrier does not help his current career as a cop, or his past one as a truck driver, beyond the fact that the police are a para-military organization.   My uncle's years in the CG does further his current career as a Customs Agent, it did not in his past one, also as a truck driver.   Kindly do not tell me to STFU again.
Edit: If we really care about our vets, we can let them get their own jobs and spend that money on medical care.   Have you ever seen the inside of a VA hospital?   Its an embarrasment to this country the way those things are run.   I have had VA hospitals and clinics as clients and am ashamed at the state many are in.   When the Walter Reed report hit the news, sadly, I wasn't even surprised.

 
 I replied while I was doing about 4 other things and read "VA" not "AA" so my entire response is based on an incorrect assumption.

 edit-umm, never mind, it was correctly based on the statement highlighted in bold.


(former member)

(former member) Avatar



Posted: Jan 7, 2009 - 7:58am

 bokey wrote:

That's an entirely different thing. That is a business deal you make with your government. You give up all rights for an agreed upon period of time, during which your life is not yours. You can be sent anywhere in the world at a moments notice to do anything you are told, including die.If you make that deal, you more than deserve the benefits you get.Anyone who loses out to a vet in a hiring process has no one but themselves to blame- the military is an equal opportunity employer and that chance was wide open and available to everyone.Those who did not take or need to take that avenue should just STFU.

 You shouldn't be given anything just because of your sex or skin color , period.Discriminating against any group with the rationalization that it is "payback" for past injustices  is obscene and in itself defeats the original argument that the action is based upon.

 

I don't think AA and the FPA are payback.  They are trying to right a wrong.  No one is saying there should be payback for the past, but that the future should be better.  Again, I agree that AA is faulty and FPA probably will be too, if it even passes.

As far as saying that anyone who chose not to go into the military should STFU, is just plain wrong.  Honestly, Bokey, I am rather insulted by that.  I have just as much right to speak my mind as any veteran.  With the exception of those who were drafted, it is a CHOICE.  I have 8 immediate family members who are or were military.  Of those 8, only 2 were draftees - one in Viet Nam, one in WWII.   Edit:  Just to clarify, whether I wanted to or needed to was never a  question for me.  I was diagnosed with a disabling disease at 18.  Whether I wanted to or needed to, they wouldn't have taken me.  Am I less of a citizen because I never had a chance to decide whether the military was or was not good for me?

I have great respect for the military. My family is a military bunch.  Pick a branch, a war or a generation and we've been there, done that.   I was only questioning the validity of ANY preferential hiring procedure.  Do vets deserve kudos and special benefits for the work they do?  Yes. The VA loans, medical services, education benefits, etc.  Yes.   I was only questioning whether military service makes you more qualified for a job anymore than any other category.  I don't believe it does unless your job in the military gives you more experience in the field in question.  My cousin's time in a boiler room on an aircraft carrier does not help his current career as a cop, or his past one as a truck driver, beyond the fact that the police are a para-military organization.  My uncle's years in the CG does further his current career as a Customs Agent, it did not in his past one, also as a truck driver.  Kindly do not tell me to STFU again.
Edit: If we really care about our vets, we can let them get their own jobs and spend that money on medical care.  Have you ever seen the inside of a VA hospital?  Its an embarrasment to this country the way those things are run.  I have had VA hospitals and clinics as clients and am ashamed at the state many are in.  When the Walter Reed report hit the news, sadly, I wasn't even surprised.
Southern_Boy

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Location: On my way to the beach
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 7, 2009 - 7:45am

 islander wrote:


Like I said, there are a lot of variables here, and it gets complicated quickly. What is ‘fair' anyway, and who gets to decide? I'm a closet liberal, and I don't want the government doing this.

 

We all know what happens when the government gets involved.

Southern_Boy

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Location: On my way to the beach
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 7, 2009 - 7:44am

 islander wrote:

Another example and some follow up questions: I have two employees that were hired at the same time, for almost the same job. The offers made were very close, one was slightly higher based on his experience (an expectation that I would have to do less training). The first employee accepted the offer, the second negotiated with me for a higher salary. Under this ‘Fair pay act' would I have to equalize their pay? Would I have to only if one was a women? What if the higher paid one was a women? Should I not have held some money back on the offers in the first place? What would you think of that if you were one of my shareholders?

 
I can only handle one thought process at a time.

Each person has the opportunity to negotiate their own pay. I hear people gripe constantly because they found out the details of another employee's compensation. If you wanted that, you should have asked. What happens beyond that point may be deemed discrimination, or maybe not. Unfortunately, many women are accustomed to thinking they don't deserve more.

I hired a woman who demanded more than any current employee (some with 15 years) on our payroll for a similar position. I said ok, and she has proved her worth many times over.

bokey

bokey Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 7, 2009 - 7:36am

 BillnDollarBaby wrote:


I agree with your second point, that is unfair.
x
But young, white males being descriminated against?   Even with poorly applied AA, that's a little extreme.   Not being considered first for a job just because you are white and have a penis may be able to be considered descrimination, but its what the rest of the population  has had to live with for as long as most can remember.   Black men weren't allowed to vote until 1870, women not until 1920.   The ERA still has not passed into an amendment.   Sorry if I don't feel pity for young white, males.   The rest of the population is still trying to catch up on all the priveleges they have been afforded since before this country was founded.  
x
My young, white male kid is moving in with us next week and he will be taught that he will receive from the world what he earns, what he deserves based on the work he puts in.   As a young, white male, its a fact.   For anyone else, its still just a hope.
x
Is the AA any more unfair than the organizations that give preferential hiring to veterans?   With no disrespect to any vets, does being vet actually make you more qualified for the job - to the point that other, more qualified candidates should be refused?    My uncle's 25+ years of CG experience does make him a better candidate for his position in customs.   But does that make every military person better qualified?   Its a slippery slope.    I think all preferential hiring procedures are good intentions, trying to right a wrong,  with no way to execute them well.   But again, "the powers that be" have created this mess and weren't able to fix it - now big brother has to step in and try to do it for them.   Most of us who aren't young, white males are tired of the status quo.

 
That's an entirely different thing. That is a business deal you make with your government. You give up all rights for an agreed upon period of time, during which your life is not yours. You can be sent anywhere in the world at a moments notice to do anything you are told, including die. If you make that deal, you more than deserve the benefits you get. Anyone who loses out to a vet in a hiring process has no one but themselves to blame- the military is an equal opportunity employer and that chance was wide open and available to everyone. Those who did not take or need to take that avenue should just STFU.

 You shouldn't be given anything just because of your sex or skin color , period. Discriminating against any group with the rationalization that it is "payback" for past injustices  is obscene and in itself defeats the original argument that the action is based upon.


(former member)

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Posted: Jan 7, 2009 - 7:25am

 bokey wrote:

That would be the ideal scenario but I agree it's not going to happen anytime soon. I just don't think destroying the lives of the current generation of young white males who are just entering the work force is fair. They have lived THEIR whole lives being discriminated against for being white males. They shouldn't  have to take a career hit because white males used to be favored  before they were even frigging born.
    
 It's at the point where almost any company would hire a minority woman over a white male if they were EQUALLY  qualified just because it looks good.I think that is grossly unfair and to hire someone who is LESS qualified for the same job due to sex or race makes me crazy(er).

 

I agree with your second point, that is unfair.
x
But young, white males being descriminated against?  Even with poorly applied AA, that's a little extreme.  Not being considered first for a job just because you are white and have a penis may be able to be considered descrimination, but its what the rest of the population  has had to live with for as long as most can remember.  Black men weren't allowed to vote until 1870, women not until 1920.  The ERA still has not passed into an amendment.  Sorry if I don't feel pity for young white, males.  The rest of the population is still trying to catch up on all the priveleges they have been afforded since before this country was founded.  Edit: Despite AA, they are still afforded privileges that others aren't.
x
My young, white male kid is moving in with us next week and he will be taught that he will receive from the world what he earns, what he deserves based on the work he puts in.  As a young, white male, its a fact.  For anyone else, its still just a hope.
x
Is the AA any more unfair than the organizations that give preferential hiring to veterans?  With no disrespect to any vets, does being vet actually make you more qualified for the job - to the point that other, more qualified candidates should be refused?   My uncle's 25+ years of CG experience does make him a better candidate for his position in customs.  But does that make every military person better qualified?  Its a slippery slope.   I think all preferential hiring procedures are good intentions, trying to right a wrong,  with no way to execute them well.  But again, "the powers that be" have created this mess and weren't able to fix it - now big brother has to step in and try to do it for them.  Most of us who aren't young, white males are tired of the status quo.


bokey

bokey Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 7, 2009 - 7:06am

 BillnDollarBaby wrote:


State governments are just as riddled with unqualified employees.     But I have always thought it had more to do with croney-ism than AA.

Put yourself in the shoes of the person making 66 or 83 cents on the dollar that a white male is paid for the same work.   AA is a flawed system to be sure, but if the inequities didn't exist no one would have had to come up with a "solution, " even if it is a poorly executed solution.   I am sure that if the FPA passes, it will be just as flawed as AA.   But its nice, after having to eat crap my entire professional life to have someone at least acknowledge that the issue exists.   I know a lot of men who will tell you that women's pay is not an issue, that it is perfectly fair.   It doesn't really affect them so it doesn't really matter to them.   After 10+ years in the construction industry, I have seen enough gender descrimination to last me a life time.   It is one of the primary reasons I am trying to get out of it, despite the fact that I love it.   Ironically, my skill set and experience make me very valuable in the industry and I keep ending up back there (through my temp agency) because I am the only candidate with the right stuff.   They just don't want to pay the same as they would for a man with the same background.   I was once offered a job - $9 and no benefits.   It was work that I was highly experienced and very good at.   The man who had just left the position due to the fact that he couldn't get the job done had been paid $18 and full, company paid benefits.   He had no experience but was retired military.

I was once told by an older, male friend that I shouldn't be upset about women being treated differently.   It wasn't something important enough to merit my ire.   Effectively he was telling me, that because I am a female, I wasn't important enough to deserve equal rights.   Seriously.   That mentality exists to a greater degree than most people realize.

  Here's to hoping that someday, we won't need things like AA and FPA, because America will grow up and lose its unfounded biases.
 
That would be the ideal scenario but I agree it's not going to happen anytime soon. I just don't think destroying the lives of the current generation of young white males who are just entering the work force is fair. They have lived THEIR whole lives being discriminated against for being white males. They shouldn't  have to take a career hit because white males used to be favored  before they were even frigging born.
    
 It's at the point where almost any company would hire a minority woman over a white male if they were EQUALLY  qualified just because it looks good. I think that is grossly unfair and to hire someone who is LESS qualified for the same job due to sex or race makes me crazy(er).


islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 7, 2009 - 7:04am

I'm reposting my earlier query because I didn't see anyone address most of it. Like I said, I agree there is an issue (although I don't think it is necessarily tied only to women), but given our current system, I don't see a really good recourse.

While not even getting into the right or wrong aspect of it, the whole idea of rectifing the issue seems staggering.
Do you give all women a raise?
Straight dollars or percentage?
What if they are already paid more than their male counterparts?
Who decides what equal work is?
What about men in the same job who are paid differently?
How do you propose funding this raise?
Will there be a tax break for it?
Will it apply to equally to women / minority owned businesses?
How much do you think you should get?

Another example and some follow up questions: I have two employees that were hired at the same time, for almost the same job. The offers made were very close, one was slightly higher based on his experience (an expectation that I would have to do less training). The first employee accepted the offer, the second negotiated with me for a higher salary. Under this ‘Fair pay act' would I have to equalize their pay? Would I have to only if one was a women? What if the higher paid one was a women? Should I not have held some money back on the offers in the first place? What would you think of that if you were one of my shareholders?

Also: I take a large portion of my compensation in stock. This gives me an opportunity for a large payoff, but it comes with a lot of risk. Additionally, the timing of the pay may not be commensurate with the time in which a lot of the hard work is done (I don't even want to know what my $/hour figure is for the last couple years). If/when that pay does come in, will that be used in the average for figuring out how much to adjust other people? If so, would I be eligible for a pay offset for the cash compensation I'm not taking now? Would I have to give it back if the stock does pay off?

Like I said, there are a lot of variables here, and it gets complicated quickly. What is ‘fair' anyway, and who gets to decide? I'm a closet liberal, and I don't want the government doing this.

 

 



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