President Trump’s main council of top corporate leaders disbanded on Wednesday following the president’s controversial remarks in which he equated white nationalist hate groups with the protesters opposing them. Soon after, the president announced on Twitter that he would end his executive councils, “rather than put pressure” on executives.
The quick sequence began late Wednesday morning when Stephen A. Schwarzman, the chief executive of the Blackstone Group and one of Mr. Trump’s closest confidants in the business community, organized a conference call for members of the president’s Strategic and Policy Forum.
On the call, the chief executives of some of the largest companies in the country debated how to proceed.
After a discussion among a dozen prominent C.E.O.s, the decision was made to abandon the group altogether, said people with knowledge of details of the call.
...
Before the president’s announcement, executives from his manufacturing council were expected to have a similar call Wednesday afternoon. The manufacturing panel has seen a wave of defections since Monday, as business chiefs who had agreed to advise the president determined that his remarks left them with no choice but to walk away.
I presume you meant the protesters were protesting "against" something that was despicable.
I agree the protesters crossed the threshold of the legal. When they initiate the violence they should be punished under the law for whatever crime they commit. I have no issue with that. I've been there myself and was just lucky that I didn't get arrested.The point is, the protesters did what they did because they see it as their moral duty to stand up and resist. There comes a point when not to do so verges on tacit consent.
The problem in your argument is that you automatically assume we live in a nice orderly civilised society where people respect each others rights and beliefs and do not threaten each other. Wonderful thing, civilised society. But standing on the corner with flowers in your hair holding a poster advocating peace love and racial harmony is not going to cut it when you have KKK, racists and white supremacists actually sitting in the seat of government.
The beliefs these people hold have tangible consequences. Pretending they don't is moral vacuity.
Quickly jumping into this discussion—apologies if someone else has raised some of the points I am quoting below:
Antifa and black bloc — the far left of today — engaging in street brawls and property damage, while reprehensible, is “not domestic terrorism,” said J. J. MacNab, a fellow in the Program on Extremism at George Washington University. Similar episodes of extreme violence certainly exist on the left: the recent congressional baseball shooting in Virginia, or the bombing of the North Carolina Republican Party headquarters.
But overall, far-right extremist plots have been far more deadly than far-left plots (and Islamist plots eclipsed both) in the past 25 years, according to a breakdown of two terrorism databases by Alex Nowrasteh, an analyst at the libertarian Cato Institute.
White nationalists; militia movements; anti-Muslim attackers; I.R.S. building and abortion clinic bombers; and other right-wing groups were responsible for 12 times as many fatalities and 36 times as many injuries as communists; socialists; animal rights and environmental activists; anti-white- and Black Lives Matter-inspired attackers; and other left-wing groups.
Of the nearly 1,500 individuals in a University of Maryland study of radicalization from 1948 to 2013, 43 percent espoused far-right ideologies, compared to 21 percent for the far left.Far-right individuals were more likely to commit violence against people, while those on the far left were more likely to commit property damage.
...
The far left was far more active and violent in the 1970s, while the far right and, specifically, militia movements resurged in the 1980s. A decade later, environmental terrorists became active. And jihadist attacks dominated after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.
“The extreme left has not been nearly as organized” in recent decades, said Brent Smith, the director of Terrorism Research Center at the University of Arkansas. “Leaders of the extreme left died off and they’re floundering without leadership.”
While antigovernment activists, for example, have been fomenting and building their anger since 2008, Antifa is a more nascent movement, reflected in their scale. The far right has a scattered membership of a few hundred thousand, estimated Ms. MacNab, compared with a few thousand Antifa activists.
I didnt assume that. I'm all for resisting against Trump. I just see too many ineffective acts of resistance...such as some of the things that occured over the weekend. I don't believe it needs to turn violent...and maybe not even so negative. Take the link Miami posted with the black officer helping the white nazi who was under some type of physical duress. He could have ignored or called for an ambulance to let them deal with him, but he overcame his hate. I'm not a big fan for the eye for an eye mentality. Again, not to say, as you say, we should stand in the corner with flowers in our hair. In this situation, would it have been better to disarm trumps position with something like..."OK, right, the ones who got violent were out of line. But the key problem with all of this is that we have nazis in this country. You're against nazi rights?" Bring the focus back to the real problem.
As we both agree, we can't change what a person may choose to believe, but we can change what is acceptable in this country. We could do a better job managing Trump and all his blunders. We could be a lot smarter in handling the situation to minimize the risk of things getting out of control, again. Of course, it sucks we're in a situation where we have to do this with our elected president...but if he is not going to take control, the people need to.
Yep, totally agree. The most important thing is to occupy the middle ground and make a vociferous argument for decency and the underlying values. But the middle has to stand up and be counted. Like Bush senior and junior did. Good on them. Like most other leaders did. That is how social consensus is formed. The worst thing would be growing polarisation of extremes, which if I am not wrong is what the alt-right is gunning for, if you pardon the expression.
The problem in your argument is that you automatically assume we live in a nice orderly civilised society where people respect each others rights and beliefs and do not threaten each other. Wonderful thing, civilised society. But standing on the corner with flowers in your hair holding a poster advocating peace love and racial harmony is not going to cut it when you have KKK, racists and white supremacists actually sitting in the seat of government.
The beliefs these people hold have tangible consequences. Pretending they don't is moral vacuity.
I didnt assume that. I'm all for resisting against Trump. I just see too many ineffective acts of resistance...such as some of the things that occured over the weekend. I don't believe it needs to turn violent...and maybe not even so negative. Take the link Miami posted with the black officer helping the white nazi who was under some type of physical duress. He could have ignored or called for an ambulance to let them deal with him, but he overcame his hate. I'm not a big fan for the eye for an eye mentality. Again, not to say, as you say, we should stand in the corner with flowers in our hair. In this situation, would it have been better to disarm trumps position with something like..."OK, right, the ones who got violent were out of line. But the key problem with all of this is that we have nazis in this country. You're against nazi rights?" Bring the focus back to the real problem.
As we both agree, we can't change what a person may choose to believe, but we can change what is acceptable in this country. We could do a better job managing Trump and all his blunders. We could be a lot smarter in handling the situation to minimize the risk of things getting out of control, again. Of course, it sucks we're in a situation where we have to do this with our elected president...but if he is not going to take control, the people need to.
I presume you meant the protesters were protesting "against" something that was despicable.
I agree the protesters crossed the threshold of the legal. When they initiate the violence they should be punished under the law for whatever crime they commit. I have no issue with that. I've been there myself and was just lucky that I didn't get arrested.The point is, the protesters did what they did because they see it as their moral duty to stand up and resist. There comes a point when not to do so verges on tacit consent.
The problem in your argument is that you automatically assume we live in a nice orderly civilised society where people respect each others rights and beliefs and do not threaten each other. Wonderful thing, civilised society. But standing on the corner with flowers in your hair holding a poster advocating peace love and racial harmony is not going to cut it when you have KKK, racists and white supremacists actually sitting in the seat of government.
The beliefs these people hold have tangible consequences. Pretending they don't is moral vacuity.
Beliefs are different from actions. Should we send nazis to re-education camps? A bullet to the brain would be cheaper and easier.
****DISCLAIMER**** I DO NOT SUPPORT NAZIS OR ANY OTHER HATE GROUP.
I know what you are saying...I also dont think it is ok to believe whatever you want (and to my point, it's not going to happen/become a part of our society). But in this situation, it is legal for these folks to believe they are superior. Regardless, that's not really the point. The point is, the protesters were protesting for something that was despicable. However, that does not excuse violence as means to try to thwart a legal protest. I'll shut up now, and we can go back to our regularly scheduled Trump bash.
I presume you meant the protesters were protesting "against" something that was despicable.
I agree the protesters crossed the threshold of the legal. When they initiate the violence they should be punished under the law for whatever crime they commit. I have no issue with that. I've been there myself and was just lucky that I didn't get arrested.The point is, the protesters did what they did because they see it as their moral duty to stand up and resist. There comes a point when not to do so verges on tacit consent.
The problem in your argument is that you automatically assume we live in a nice orderly civilised society where people respect each others rights and beliefs and do not threaten each other. Wonderful thing, civilised society. But standing on the corner with flowers in your hair holding a poster advocating peace love and racial harmony is not going to cut it when you have KKK, racists and white supremacists actually sitting in the seat of government.
The beliefs these people hold have tangible consequences. Pretending they don't is moral vacuity.
Thanks, and here is an example of something good that came out of this:
As all hell was breaking loose in Charlottesville, Virginia, last weekend, with neo- Nazis, members of the KKK and assorted other white supremacists and hate groups engaged in a rally that turned deadly, it ends up that a Wegmans that was just a couple of miles from the epicenter of the violence was instrumental in preparing and donating food for first responders.
According to the Democrat & Chronicle, “Charlottesville store managers halted daily work to prepare food for first responders working to quell the unrest … First responders entered the store late Saturday planning to purchase several pizzas, drinks, but left with a vehicle filled with donated hot food, chips and drinks.”
A Facebook posting by the Metro Richmond Fire Incidents said that “store managers halted their daily work and ‘dedicated themselves and other staff to cooking for us. They fired up all their ovens, called in extra bakers and even emptied their freezers to cook boxed pizza for us when they ran out of dough.
The night manager stayed till 1 a.m. The opening manager had carts lined up for us with breakfast, sorted by delivery location. The store practically refused to take a payment until we told them we wouldn't leave until they did’.
“In all, food prepared at the store fed more than 1,000 police officers and National Guard members, ‘amid absolute chaos and with no advanced notice,’ according to the post. The deed culminated Sunday morning with 500 Virginia State Police troopers ‘walking into their location, bereft with grief, yet so thankful to see a 20-foot long counter lined with breakfast’.”
It is Eye-Opening to know that in a situation where racists and bigots and hate mongers show us the worst of humanity and the polar opposite of what this country is supposed to be all about, there are people and places that show kindness and empathy, demonstrating and reflecting the best of the American spirit.
It also should be Eye-Opening to businesses that the spotlight will find those that behave well, and those that do not. There is no place to hide, and so businesses and business leaders must do the right thing.
Thanks, and here is an example of something good that came out of this:
As all hell was breaking loose in Charlottesville, Virginia, last weekend, with neo- Nazis, members of the KKK and assorted other white supremacists and hate groups engaged in a rally that turned deadly, it ends up that a Wegmans that was just a couple of miles from the epicenter of the violence was instrumental in preparing and donating food for first responders.
According to the Democrat & Chronicle, “Charlottesville store managers halted daily work to prepare food for first responders working to quell the unrest … First responders entered the store late Saturday planning to purchase several pizzas, drinks, but left with a vehicle filled with donated hot food, chips and drinks.”
A Facebook posting by the Metro Richmond Fire Incidents said that “store managers halted their daily work and ‘dedicated themselves and other staff to cooking for us. They fired up all their ovens, called in extra bakers and even emptied their freezers to cook boxed pizza for us when they ran out of dough.
The night manager stayed till 1 a.m. The opening manager had carts lined up for us with breakfast, sorted by delivery location. The store practically refused to take a payment until we told them we wouldn't leave until they did’.
“In all, food prepared at the store fed more than 1,000 police officers and National Guard members, ‘amid absolute chaos and with no advanced notice,’ according to the post. The deed culminated Sunday morning with 500 Virginia State Police troopers ‘walking into their location, bereft with grief, yet so thankful to see a 20-foot long counter lined with breakfast’.”
It is Eye-Opening to know that in a situation where racists and bigots and hate mongers show us the worst of humanity and the polar opposite of what this country is supposed to be all about, there are people and places that show kindness and empathy, demonstrating and reflecting the best of the American spirit.
It also should be Eye-Opening to businesses that the spotlight will find those that behave well, and those that do not. There is no place to hide, and so businesses and business leaders must do the right thing.
Thanks, and here is an example of something good that came out of this:
As all hell was breaking loose in Charlottesville, Virginia, last weekend, with neo- Nazis, members of the KKK and assorted other white supremacists and hate groups engaged in a rally that turned deadly, it ends up that a Wegmans that was just a couple of miles from the epicenter of the violence was instrumental in preparing and donating food for first responders.
According to the Democrat & Chronicle, “Charlottesville store managers halted daily work to prepare food for first responders working to quell the unrest … First responders entered the store late Saturday planning to purchase several pizzas, drinks, but left with a vehicle filled with donated hot food, chips and drinks.”
A Facebook posting by the Metro Richmond Fire Incidents said that “store managers halted their daily work and ‘dedicated themselves and other staff to cooking for us. They fired up all their ovens, called in extra bakers and even emptied their freezers to cook boxed pizza for us when they ran out of dough.
The night manager stayed till 1 a.m. The opening manager had carts lined up for us with breakfast, sorted by delivery location. The store practically refused to take a payment until we told them we wouldn't leave until they did’.
“In all, food prepared at the store fed more than 1,000 police officers and National Guard members, ‘amid absolute chaos and with no advanced notice,’ according to the post. The deed culminated Sunday morning with 500 Virginia State Police troopers ‘walking into their location, bereft with grief, yet so thankful to see a 20-foot long counter lined with breakfast’.”
It is Eye-Opening to know that in a situation where racists and bigots and hate mongers show us the worst of humanity and the polar opposite of what this country is supposed to be all about, there are people and places that show kindness and empathy, demonstrating and reflecting the best of the American spirit.
It also should be Eye-Opening to businesses that the spotlight will find those that behave well, and those that do not. There is no place to hide, and so businesses and business leaders must do the right thing.
nope.. I disagree. it is not ok to believe whatever you want.
You "can" believe whatever you want You in fact will believe whatever you want But it is not "ok" to believe whatever you want.
"being ok" is an epithet of social approval.. i.e. what you believe lies within the generally accepted borders of the socially acceptable. While I think this sphere should be as wide as possible in a tolerant society, there are some ideas that will destroy that very same liberal tolerance. These ideas are not and can never be ok if you want to live in a tolerant liberal society. For the same reason it is not ok to think murder, rape, cannibalism or sexual discrimination is "ok".
I know what you are saying...I also dont think it is ok to believe whatever you want (and to my point, it's not going to happen/become a part of our society). But in this situation, it is legal for these folks to believe they are superior. Regardless, that's not really the point. The point is, the protesters were protesting for something that was despicable. However, that does not excuse violence as means to try to thwart a legal protest. I'll shut up now, and we can go back to our regularly scheduled Trump bash.
Location: Blinding You With Library Science! Gender:
Posted:
Aug 16, 2017 - 10:23am
NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
nope.. I disagree. it is not ok to believe whatever you want.
You "can" believe whatever you want You in fact will believe whatever you want But it is not "ok" to believe whatever you want.
"being ok" is an epithet of social approval.. i.e. what you believe lies within the generally accepted borders of the socially acceptable. While I think this sphere should be as wide as possible in a tolerant society, there are some ideas that will destroy that very same liberal tolerance. These ideas are not and can never be ok if you want to live in a tolerant liberal society. For the same reason it is not ok to think murder, rape, cannibalism or sexual discrimination is "ok".
