islander wrote: 


Since you invoked me in your screed, I'm coming in.

Really ?  Can you tell me and the rest of the class exactly what is burning down ?  I see very little different since the election.  Oh, well republicans are being hunted down by crazy left wingers, but other than that, what ?  The system isn't working ?  Its working just fine if your a democrat.  Its been 6 months and Trump has had less than 50 of his 200 appointments confirmed because of the D's working the rules to stall with the tiniest procedural delays they can find.  At this rate his appointments will be confirmed well beyond his first term.  How exactly is he supposed to run the government without people to do the job ?  The D's are playing a really dangerous game putting their game ahead of the security and functionality of our country.

Patriotism, Hah !!  What do you know of patriotism ?  Were they still teaching Civics when you went to HS ?  I bet that my notion of what patriotism is a lot different than yours having roots in this country that go back 377 years, which you openly mock.  Oh and the wife traces back to George Washington's brother and beyond that.  Its now the acceptable belief that the American flag has no place on some public college and university campuses.  Singing the National Anthem at sporting events is now considered a political event and should be banned.
 islander wrote:  
Poor baby.  You really have no sense about what this county is.  This country takes a back seat to no one.  We set the standards for Freedom for the rest of the world.    Sure it ain't perfect, but its better than anywhere else, on paper at least. 

Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty ...  

I guess you want to turn the reigns over to somebody else.  And just who are you going to put in charge ?  Its a short list.  China or Russia.  The Federation of Planets is not available.  And don't you dare say the U.N.  

In case you haven't noticed the presidential pivot, we now have a cease fire in Syria that has lasted an unprecedented 5 days and counting.  Brokered by Trump.  The man has stepped up to the plate and is getting base hits and has scored a couple of runs.  The definition of politeness has been hijacked and replaced with the definition of political correctness.

You are just Pollyanna or want to be.  We had 8 years of Pollyannaism and the world is a much worse place than when he took over, forging the kind of decline that you are rooting for.

You believe that Trump supporters are blindly stupid in lock step ignoring all of his faults.  You are out of touch with reality.  With your world view as illustrated above, it is impossible for you to even think of seeing what his supporters see.  Trump is not business as usual.  Get over it.  He still believes that America is the best thing that ever happened to this planet and so do I.  That alone is enough to piss off all the Lefty apologists who think like you, we should sit on the sidelines and let some one else do what America does.   The civilized world is a better place because of America, its strengths and virtues.  Who else can make that claim ?  What other major country grants power to the government by the governed ?  Its a short list.  I'll wait for an answer.

He never had the benefit of the doubt by any other than his supporters and that includes the republican establishment.  He was pronounced a disaster before he started.  So why should we care what you or anyone else thinks about him at this point ?   Yeah with all of his warts and flaws, he's doing pretty well in spite of all of the obstacles being placed in front of him.  We see the hate and opposition he is facing vs his accomplishments so far and are thinking he's doing ok and would be doing a hell of a lot better if he had some support.

You expect Trump supporters to roll over and play dead because you and the establishment types we are trying to run out of power think we will because we are just blind sheep with short attention spans, easily tired and easily dismayed.  It ain't happening.  The more you all pile on with all of the BS and Russia shit, the more it makes us dig in and see it as a fight to the finish.  You ask about Patriotism.  I guess you are gonna find out what it really is, the hard way.
  
 

 VV wrote:
Great, in three and a half years they get a do-over. But in the mean time you don't get to undo the election no matter how bad anybody feels about it, and the Trump voters I know see this as yet another partisan witch hunt.

Which, honestly, it is.

 aflanigan wrote: 
I don't think a case can be made for treason, but... as time goes by we find out that more and more of The Liar In Chief's regime have committed perjury at least once.

 aflanigan wrote:
You forgot to add "Think of the children!"

 Lazy8 wrote: 
A certain country/its populace, I believe.

Or at least those citizens who value the principle of government chosen by the people, without meddling by another nation/nations.

 Lazy8 wrote: 
That's not exactly true. There is a growing number of voters that are regretting their decision. Forgot where I read the article but the gist is that if the election were held now... he would not win. That goes to show that even his previous supporters have limits on what they will accept and that "even though they knew what they were voting for" they didn't fully bargain for what they are now seeing. I didn't vote for him and knew things were going to be bad... but I didn't anticipate anything quite like this. 

 islander wrote: 
The Good Thing that might come from this are the moderate members of all parties realize that, like the bundle of sticks, there's more strength in numbers. Otherwise they're doomed to the fringe.

A giant party made of not-religious, budget-conscious, compassionate Centrists could gain enough traction to take out all the little cults.

 Lazy8 wrote: 
I think this is a legitimate and complex point. 
As we get older, we see the youngsters trying to make a name for themselves, and that's happening in the media in general. Everyone wants to be Woodward & Bernstein - but there aren't enough real scandals to dole out to the young and hungry. So they grasp at every straw, every insignificant little gotcha, creating crap like TMZ. And that ruins the credibility of "The Press."

If there's no way, due to the 1st Amendment, to squelch these under-investigated gossip rags, and they still get clustered under the umbrella of "News" then it's a natural thing that "News" can be found to be Fake. Makes perfect sense. No argument. I'm ignoring obvious propaganda machines like FOX and MSNBC.

So how do we get Uncle Walter back? He's been replaced by Keith Olberman and Sean Hannity. Who can yell the most? Who can mock their subject with the most eloquence? And where is the reality, the real thing we need to know, in the midst of that dreck entertainment?

Trump can certainly claim Fake News and get some palpable hits, I do confess it. But, of course, that doesn't mean that everything all the time no matter what is false. 

 Lazy8 wrote: 
I'm not calling for impeachment - I'm in the Pence is probably worse camp. I am calling for people to not just go "hey, it's Trump, what did you expect...Whatever ". Outside of waiting a full 60 days longer that Hilary would have (speculative) to bomb another country, I think it's fair to say that he's objectively worse your descendants and cancerous to your remaining skin in the game (to be clear, I'm still playing, I just have some flexibility between rugby and poker). 

This is the time that Libertarians, Greens, Democrats, and patriotic Republicans (actually, that should be patriotic ahead of all those groups) to stand up and say "okay, this is what break the system looks like. We have a better way - here is a reasonable set of compromises that we can all move forward with". 

I get it, Trumps people are pissed and they want something. But if this is what they really want then it's time for adults and people with skin/descendents to call out the outrages and the stupid distractions alike. There needs to be pressure applied from somewhere, or we are just accepting and will get more of this.

 islander wrote:
Not in your tax bracket and I still have skin (and descendants) in the game, but why is this particular incident—which (so far) doesn't even involve MAGAmmenon—so important? There are real policy issues to bring up, fight over, convince people of. This is a huge distraction and it plays in Trumps favor.

Look how the last impeachment attempt went. Not only was the president not removed from office (tho he had clearly broken an actual law) it cost the attacking party most of its leadership in both houses. Not just out of control of Congress, out of Congress.

Trump's base is more convinced than ever that the media and the opposition they are allied with are unscrupulously out to get their guy. That opposition is burning its credibility by stoking outrage about every trivial detail surrounding the election. When it all plays out and all the puffed-up punditry is done the public will be exhausted and Trump's base will feel vindicated> And the outrages—real outrages—will pass by unremarked. And they probably already are.

 aflanigan wrote:
Treason implies betrayal. Who was Junior betraying? He was doing oppo on his father's opponent.This happens with every campaign in every election. Why is it important that the person offering dirt was foreign?

That media pundits can find an interpretation of federal law to charge Junior with a crime isn't surprising. With enough research and squinting both of us could probably be charged with felonies while we're sitting here arguing on the internet. Would that lead to prosecution (of Junior—you and I haven't pissed off anyone powerful enough to become targets of that sort of witch hunt) (that I know of; don't know what's in your other browser windows) under the standards James Comey set for prosecuting Hillary Clinton?

 black321 wrote: 
I'm really trying to see it through that lens. But it just feels like more of the same hypocrisy that drove me away from both major parties. Anyone who freaked out over Obama's "I'll have more room after the election" comment to Vlad, should be head explodingly frothy over the current events, yet no... they are getting the benefit now, so they will look the other way.

Government can work, it has for centuries. Sure there are flaws, but it has been better than anarchy and civil war. Unfortunately, I see us moving to a point where we need anarchy and civil war to remind us that the flawed republic we have isn't so bad after all. 

 Lazy8 wrote: 
I am not re-litigating the election. He won, absolutely and he gets the spoils that go with that. But there were a number of 'promises' of a pivot and a presidential presentation once he took the seat. That hasn't happened and no one that was making that claim (however far fetched) seems to care or to remember.

I'm too old to be drafted, too diversified (or divested) to be majorly impacted by markets, I have a lot of options for most of the non-nuclear scenarios. It's mostly just a big popcorn bag and a seat on the sidelines for me.  I do feel bad for our nation though. Sure it's been a long slow decline, but I was hoping for a British or Italian style transition into post world leader status. One where we casually step back into a more relaxed pace and say "yeah, been there done that". Instead we seem to be in the mode of "screw everyone, if we can't have it, we'll release the zombie virus". And that's just not the casual retirement with palm trees and sand that I had in mind.

islander wrote:
He is exactly the swine people knew they were voting for. By the election his character and talents were clear. And enough people voted for him to put him in office.

The election is over. This corrupt, dishonest oligarch beat the other one. Endlessly re-litigating the election isn't convincing anyone of anything they don't already believe.

 islander wrote: 
Maybe their point is (and im not speaking for myself), was it really any better under the prior admins?  As you note, we messed in their election..Obama knew they were messing in ours.  The games behind the curtain continued.  So trump's biggest sin is, he's not playing by the rules (if we assume he is lucid and competent in some manner)?  He talked to Vlad, said fine, lets negotiate anyway...he's opening the curtain, which maybe some like? 

But the biggest issue i have with him is his volatility, and the volatility he adds to the system.  To your point, think what you will of Obama, but he kept things stable.  We cant say the same for Trump (or whether he himself is stable).  And given the house of cards we've built (heavy debt, nation building that has bit us back...), to which he is offering zero in the way of solutions, can any of us afford a heavy wind?  And then of course there are the conflicts with his business interests, nepotism... 

 black321 wrote: 
The thing is he's had a chance. Where is "the pivot"? Where is "presidential"? These aren't even mentioned anymore. I never really had any hope they would materialize, but they were necessary if we were ever to have a functioning presidency. Say what you want about Obama, but the country did well under his watch. Beyond the financials which are holding up, how is our country doing? Kurtser is getting his wish to see it all burn down, but is anyone else sincerely happy with the state of affairs? Does it really not bother people that collusion and big headlines aside, a foreign hostile government interfered with our elections (yes, it was retributions for us mucking in theirs, but it shows that they were pissed about it and did something). 

Wall St. is still on a tear, and the housing market seems all boomy, but I've started moving to defensive positions because all the signals are there for a problem. I'll continue to be fine, but I'm sad to see our country in this state. Maybe I'm just confused as to what a patriot really is. 

 black321 wrote: 

 islander wrote: 
some folks, and good folks, still believe this is all overblown conjecture by the media/liberals (and a lot of it is...but they seem oblivious as to the source of the material?) and we should still give him a chance...

 Lazy8 wrote: 
I have no doubt that the distance between normal and the line the Republicans in congress are willing to tolerate is measured in light years. But I still have to wonder about the general populace. Seriously, this is everything he was billed as. This is pretty much what I expected from him - boorishness, corruption, nepotism, complete disregard for any standards, actions with no purpose except to flaunt an antagonize... This is what he has always been.  Aren't people getting tired of this? how far down does our global standing have to go?  Will it take a wall street implosion and a real financial crisis to shake the faith?  Are we there yet - is money all that matters?

 Lazy8 wrote: 
Treason or impeachment? No.  But clearly more rot from the core of a wormy apple.