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Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 2:00pm

 black321 wrote:

How could such good friends come to part? 
See what politics does!




Yea, Let's stop with the Barrel Scraping 402 course, shall we and stay on Topic:


"So what? they're armed. Get rid of the MAGS; they're Not Here to Hurt ME."


black321

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Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 12:51pm

How could such good friends come to part? 
See what politics does!

Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 8:15am

 Steely_D wrote:

Reading more, the story that the secret service says whatever is all “according to sources” and no one credible and no one on record.
Anonymous sources are much less believable than someone under oath in front of cameras, when the people who are topic of testimony have also already been interviewed.



I don’t see a release by Mark Meadows discrediting her testimony. You’d think…
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 8:10am

 kurtster wrote:

I addressed all of your concerns, please reread.  However just to specifically address point A, no, a witness cannot just show up to the public hearing and demand to be heard and testify.  They must be called up by the committee in order to testify.


Every person mentioned yesterday by name would definitely be granted an interview.   "If you want to refute any of this Mr. Meadows, we'll schedule the meeting at your earliest convenience".   Like I said earlier,  focus on the process is merely a distraction.

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 7:41am

Trump supporters raced to debunk Jan. 6 testimony. Then they got confused.

The former president’s backers quickly spun an online conspiracy theory that he couldn’t possibly have lunged for his driver’s steering wheel on Jan. 6, 2021. When evidence suggested otherwise, they changed tack.


Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 7:16am

 kurtster wrote:

So much for your hearsay witness ...

Secret Service lead and presidential driver are prepared to testify under oath that Trump did NOT grab steering wheel or lunge at agents to drive himself to Capitol on January 6
.
Bobby Engel, the lead agent on Trump's detail, and the presidential driver at the time are prepared to testify under oath to the committee that Hutchinson's testimony is incorrect, according to multiple news outlets

So if she's lying about this, I would say that it casts serious doubt on her entire testimony ...


She didn't say she witnessed it, she said that agents had told her that's what happened.  Whether or not it happened is immaterial to whether or not she is lying, if it's what she was told by an agent.  Yes, it's hearsay.
maryte

maryte Avatar

Location: Blinding You With Library Science!
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Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 6:42am

 kurtster wrote:

So much for your hearsay witness ...

Secret Service lead and presidential driver are prepared to testify under oath that Trump did NOT grab steering wheel or lunge at agents to drive himself to Capitol on January 6
.
Bobby Engel, the lead agent on Trump's detail, and the presidential driver at the time are prepared to testify under oath to the committee that Hutchinson's testimony is incorrect, according to multiple news outlets

So if she's lying about this, I would say that it casts serious doubt on her entire testimony ...



The Daily Mail? Every time I try to give you the benefit of the doubt, you give me a reason not to.
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 6:41am

 rgio wrote:
Kurt, all of those mentioned in her stories are free to provide the facts as they lived them to the committee.  They'd only have to A) show up, and B) stop taking the 5th.  When the "other" side of the argument won't "self incriminate" after asking for pardons for crimes committed related to these events, I think we should believe them.   I see no reason not to believe her.  Apparently, Tucker agrees with me.  It's why he is starting all of his shows in Brazil this week with a "good news" story:  inflation.
 
I addressed all of your concerns, please reread.  However just to specifically address point A, no, a witness cannot just show up to the public hearing and demand to be heard and testify.  They must be called up by the committee in order to testify.

Funny how you go from dissing Tucker and those who watch to now citing him for supporting a point.  And no I have not watched any Tucker yet this week.  I did see that he is Brazil, didn't know for how long.  Once I saw him being there, my first thought was that he was there for an at length interview with Glenn Greenwald.  I hope that is the case.  Anyway, I'm waiting for Steeler to pop in and opine.
Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 6:37am

Reading more, the story that the secret service says whatever is all “according to sources” and no one credible and no one on record.
Anonymous sources are much less believable than someone under oath in front of cameras, when the people who are topic of testimony have also already been interviewed.
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 29, 2022 - 5:19am

 kcar wrote:

...

I found Hutchinson quite credible. My guess is that the Committee would not have called a special session just to hear her testimony if they hadn't found her credible and hadn't discovered evidence corroborating her testimony.


I would second that sentiment.

The Right's laser focus on process (there is no cross-examination) and minutia (the story she clearly explained was second-hand was false, so everything she said is a lie) is laughable.  This girl goes from a very average college to sitting 3 doors down the hall from the POTUS in 2 years why?  The funny thing is that the ego of having an attractive admin on your arm everywhere is what enables such testimony.  If Meadows would have hired a mid-50s, overweight, lifelong confidant who has worked with him for 2 decades, the loyalty might have held.   Instead, you've got someone with little or no experience looking around and thinking "I've got 40 years left to work, I'm not going down with this ship".  Speaking of which... can't we get Hope Hicks to testify?

Kurt, all of those mentioned in her stories are free to provide the facts as they lived them to the committee.  They'd only have to A) show up, and B) stop taking the 5th.  When the "other" side of the argument won't "self incriminate" after asking for pardons for crimes committed related to these events, I think we should believe them.  

I see no reason not to believe her.  Apparently, Tucker agrees with me.  It's why he is starting all of his shows in Brazil this week with a "good news" story:  inflation.
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 9:37pm

1. Remember that Hutchinson was recounting what Ornato told her about what Engel had just experienced with Trump in "The Beast." Engel was in the room with Ornato and Hutchinson at the time of Ornato's recounting, according to Hutchinson. 

2. It's possible that Ornato mistakenly added false details about Trump lunging and grabbing and that Engel was too shaken or distracted to correct him. A variation on the "broken telephone" game if you will.

3. It's pretty doubtful that Hutchinson would lie about hearing of Trump lunging and grabbing when as she stated Engel was in the room at the time of Ornato's recounting. If she lied during Tuesday's testimony about that Jan. 6 conversation, Hutchinson would have given Engel the perfect and easy opportunity to disagree with that lie or lies and damage her credibility.

4. Remember that the Committee explicitly asked Hutchinson whether Engel disagreed with Ornato's recounting as Ornato gave it. She said Engel did not. She also said IIRC that Engel did not dispute the details of Ornato's recounting at a later time.

5. Note that the Daily Mail's piece merely reports that a source or sources say that Engel and the limo driver are prepared to testify that Trump didn't lunge at the wheel or assault either man. 

5a. So The Mail is reporting on a *rumor* about *willingness* to testify on disagreement about *incidental* details concerning Trump's intent and strong desire to go to the Capitol building with the protesters. That's not much of a news story so far. Right now it feels more like an attempt to smear Hutchinson.

5b. Whether Trump lunged and/or assaulted or not are not significant details concerning Trump's intent and desire to take part and give approval to the riot at the Capitol. Trump knew the protesters were armed and dangerous. He knew they planned to storm the Capitol, disrupt the vote count and take prisoners. He personally took part in the plan to create a new set of electors loyal to him and have their votes take the place of the real electors.

5b. Has Engel or the driver been interviewed by the Committee?

6. Has Ornato agreed or disagreed with Hutchinson 's testimony? 

I found Hutchinson quite credible. My guess is that the Committee would not have called a special session just to hear her testimony if they hadn't found her credible and hadn't discovered evidence corroborating her testimony.

kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 7:55pm

 Steely_D wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

Bobby Engel, the lead agent on Trump's detail, and the presidential driver at the time are prepared to testify under oath to the committee that Hutchinson's testimony is incorrect, according to multiple news outlets

Well, Engel and Ornato have both testified to the committee behind closed doors. So I'd be very surprised that they would say anything different. And that's really the smallest (although very emotionally resonant) thing to pick out.
If lying about one thing makes you a liar and totally completely unreliable, we should head back to Rudy's "assault" or Trump's election results lies and work backwards from there.
 

That is usually how you discredit or impeach a witness.  You lied about this, why should we believe the rest ?

I seriously doubt that they will be allowed to publicly testify to this.  Keeping them from testifying will simply nullify their public statements and protect Hutchinson's testimony from any formal rebuttal on the record and under oath.  That's how you do these things.

And are we not already working on Rudy and Trump ?

Hey, I'm just sitting back and watching, like the rest of us.  I'm waiting to be convinced.  But I wish to see the whole thing play out before I draw a conclusion.

And an aside to the Flynn thing ... Not having seen anything more than that one minute clip, I'm willing to bet that he took the 5th on everything given what he has previously experienced.  And if that is the case, that clip means nothing.

Edit:  upon further thought, since both agents had already testified behind closed doors, I would like to think that they remember their testimony pretty well being the professionals that they are.  And why would they risk perjury by contradicting themselves is a real question.  If their public statements are indeed consistent with their private official statements one would then have to ask why the committee took the word of a staffer who was not present over the first hand testimony of the two Secret Service agents present and omitted their contrary testimony ?  If true it would cast a doubt over the credibility of the whole investigation as far as I am concerned, not to mention how it would establish the committee's intent towards the whole matter.

I await comment from our resident legal expert on my thoughts.

Steeler ?
Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 7:42pm

 kurtster wrote:

Bobby Engel, the lead agent on Trump's detail, and the presidential driver at the time are prepared to testify under oath to the committee that Hutchinson's testimony is incorrect, according to multiple news outlets



Well, Engel and Ornato have both testified to the committee behind closed doors. So I'd be very surprised that they would say anything different and then have her come forward in such a dramatic manner.

And that's really the smallest (although very emotionally resonant) thing to pick out.
If lying about one thing makes you a liar and totally completely unreliable, we should head back to Rudy's "assault" or Trump's election results lies and work backwards from there.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 7:04pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
 
So much for your hearsay witness ...

Secret Service lead and presidential driver are prepared to testify under oath that Trump did NOT grab steering wheel or lunge at agents to drive himself to Capitol on January 6
.
Bobby Engel, the lead agent on Trump's detail, and the presidential driver at the time are prepared to testify under oath to the committee that Hutchinson's testimony is incorrect, according to multiple news outlets

So if she's lying about this, I would say that it casts serious doubt on her entire testimony ...

haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 5:26pm

 Steely_D wrote:

Monica is so good at Twitter.






Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 5:15pm

Monica is so good at Twitter.

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 5:13pm

 kcar wrote:


In reality, he probably thought about grabbing her crotch 5 times a day.


no doubt
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 4:35pm

 rgio wrote:

The Donald is "Truthing" about the hearings...

“I hardly know who this person, Cassidy Hutchinson, is, other than I heard very negative things about her (a total phony and ‘leaker’), and when she requested to go with certain others of the team to Florida after my having served a full term in office, I personally turned her request down."   

“Why did she want to go with us if she felt we were so terrible? I understand that she was very upset and angry that I didn’t want her to go, or be a member of the team. She is bad news!”

Different crisis, same playbook.



In reality, he probably thought about grabbing her crotch 5 times a day.
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 4:27pm

 haresfur wrote:


Ah. An optimist. Even if trump is indicted he will be able to spin it out until he dies a free man.


I cannot express how wrong I hope you are.
haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2022 - 4:25pm

 ScottN wrote:

Tomorrow's J 6 hearing may be big.  Top level indictments will soon follow, imo. The mofo is going down.


Ah. An optimist. Even if trump is indicted he will be able to spin it out until he dies a free man.
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