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KarmaKarma

KarmaKarma Avatar



Posted: Aug 13, 2020 - 9:17pm



 kcar wrote:


 kurtster wrote:

A real leader like your man for POTUS, Biden who called the China travel ban, which saved a whole shitload of lives, a racist, xenophobic act that was the most wrong headed thing that Trump could do and would do nothing to save lives. 

If Biden was POTUS back then, most likely 10 times as many would be dead due to unrestricted travel from China to this country.  Biden is Xi's bitch, bought and paid for with $1.2 billion dollars paid to Hunter.
 

Feeling desperate, Kurt? 'Cause you're just flinging debunked crap at the wall.


CRAP DELETED

 
Wow.  You have way too much time on your hands.  You are far too invested in being right, that you find it imperative to post reams and reams of text, because, NOOOOO you are RIGHT, dammmmit!

Get over yourself.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 13, 2020 - 9:00pm

 kcar wrote:


Feeling desperate, Kurt? 'Cause you're just flinging debunked crap at the wall. 
 
tldnr

Why don't you just save your breath and some bandwidth and just call me a lying sack of shit. 

Be so much quicker and accomplish the same thing.
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Aug 13, 2020 - 7:13pm



 kurtster wrote:

A real leader like your man for POTUS, Biden who called the China travel ban, which saved a whole shitload of lives, a racist, xenophobic act that was the most wrong headed thing that Trump could do and would do nothing to save lives. 

If Biden was POTUS back then, most likely 10 times as many would be dead due to unrestricted travel from China to this country.  Biden is Xi's bitch, bought and paid for with $1.2 billion dollars paid to Hunter.
 

Feeling desperate, Kurt? 'Cause you're just flinging debunked crap at the wall.

The Facts on Trump’s Travel Restrictions

...

For starters, health experts say Trump was wrong to refer to the travel restrictions as a “travel ban,” as he did in a telephone interview on March 4 with Fox News’ Sean Hannity. During a town hall on March 5, Trump said he “closed down the borders to China and to other areas that are very badly affected.” That’s not accurate.

As Azar explained when he announced the travel restrictions on Jan. 31, the policy prohibits non-U.S. citizens, other than the immediate family of U.S. citizens and permanent residents, who have traveled to China within the last two weeks from entering the U.S.

At a House subcommittee hearing on the coronavirus on Feb. 5, Ron Klain, White House Ebola response coordinator under the Obama administration, took issue with the characterization of the travel restrictions as a travel “ban.”

“We don’t have a travel ban,” Klain said. “We have a travel Band-Aid right now. First, before it was imposed, 300,000 people came here from China in the previous month. So, the horse is out of the barn.”

“There’s no restriction on Americans going back and forth,” Klain said. “There are warnings. People should abide by those warnings. But today, 30 planes will land in Los Angeles that either originated in Beijing or came here on one-stops, 30 in San Francisco, 25 in New York City. Okay? So, unless we think that the color of the passport someone carries is a meaningful public health restriction, we have not placed a meaningful public health restriction.”

Indeed, on Jan. 24, a week before the travel restrictions, the CDC confirmed two cases of the novel coronavirus in the U.S. from people who had returned from Wuhan, China, where the outbreak began.


Democratic Criticism 

On the day Trump imposed the travel restrictions, Biden did criticize Trump for his “record of hysteria and xenophobia,” but it is unclear whether Biden was referring to Trump’s travel restrictions, or Trump’s overall qualifications to deal with the epidemic.

“We have right now a crisis with the coronavirus, emanating from China,” Biden said on Jan. 31 at a campaign event in Iowa. “A national emergency worldwide alerts. The American people need to have a president who they can trust what he says about it, that he is going to act rationally about it. In moments like this, this is where the credibility of the president is most needed, as he explains what we should and should not do. This is no time for Donald Trump’s record of hysteria and xenophobia – hysterical xenophobia – and fearmongering to lead the way instead of science.”

In an op-ed published several days prior in USA Today, Biden similarly argued: “The possibility of a pandemic is a challenge Donald Trump is unqualified to handle as president.” Biden wrote that he recalled “how Trump sought to stoke fear and stigma during the 2014 Ebola epidemic.” Trump, Biden wrote, “railed against the evidence-based response our administration put in place — which quelled the crisis and saved hundreds of thousands of lives — in favor of reactionary travel bans that would only have made things worse.”

Although Democratic leaders and Democratic presidential candidates have been highly critical of Trump’s response to the coronavirus, we couldn’t find any examples of them directly and clearly criticizing the travel restrictions.


Have Travel Restrictions ‘Saved a Lot of Lives’?

(Dr. Jennifer) Nuzzo, the senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, said there’s no evidence, at least, that the travel restrictions have saved lives or reduced the number of cases in the U.S.

“We have not seen any evidence that shows the travel restrictions stopped or slowed down transmission of the virus that causes COVID-19,” Nuzzo told us via email. “It is possible that it did, but there is no evidence to show this. Rather there are a number of reasons to believe that this may very well not be the case.”

Chiefly, she said, that’s because “we weren’t seriously looking for cases in the US.”

“If you had mild infection, you were not tested,” Nuzzo said. “If you had viral pneumonia not requiring oxygen but had not been to Wuhan, you wouldn’t have been tested.”

“Prior to the US travel restrictions, China began suspending outbound flights,” Nuzzo said. “Airlines also began canceling flights due to low travel volume. Then, the US implemented travel restrictions, which further reduced travel from China. The exception was Americans who were returning home from China. These folks were subject to quarantine upon return. A number of cases were found among these individuals. If you only test travelers from China and you greatly reduce the number of travelers coming from China, then you would be likely to not find many cases.

“But it doesn’t mean the virus hadn’t entered the US prior to travel restrictions,” Nuzzo said, as data now suggests occurred in Washington state.

Also, she said other countries, including Japan, Singapore and Korea, had a significant number of coronavirus cases, but they weren’t subject to travel restrictions. The U.S. “would likely not have picked it up” if travelers coming to the U.S. from those countries “because we weren’t using these other countries as criteria for testing.”

A modeling study published in Science magazine on March 6, “The effect of travel restrictions on the spread of the 2019 novel coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreak,” concluded that, “In areas affected by the 2019 novel coronavirus (COVID-19), travel restrictions will only modestly impact the spread of the outbreak,” according to a press release for the study.

“Based on the study’s results, the authors say the greatest benefit to mitigating the epidemic will come from public health interventions and behavioral changes that achieve a considerable reduction in the disease transmissibility – factors like early detection, isolation, and handwashing,” according to the press release.

The authors concluded that travel restrictions introduced by the Chinese government in Wuhan in Jan. 23 and the halting of airline flights to and from China starting in early February at first slowed the spread of the disease to the rest of the world. Even still, a large number of individuals exposed to the virus had been traveling internationally without being detected and, the authors note, the number of imported cases around the world went up in a matter of weeks.

“Moving forward we expect that travel restrictions to COVID-19 affected areas will have modest effects, and that transmission-reduction interventions will provide the greatest benefit to mitigate the epidemic,” the authors wrote.




Trump’s Travel Restrictions on China Failed To Stop the Spread of Coronavirus

...

By the time President Trump started implementing U.S. travel restrictions from China on February 2, nearly 40 countries had already enforced travel restrictions.


Because of Trump’s late response, more than 430,000 people came to the United States from China after Chinese officials notified the U.S. administration of the seriousness of the Wuhan outbreak—nearly 40,000 of whom arrived after Trump’s restrictions went into effect.

Trump delayed U.S. travel restrictions from China despite warnings from his own administration and other U.S. officials. On January 2—four weeks before Trump took action—Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Director Robert Redfield warned the National Security Council about the early cases of coronavirus in China and its potential spread to the United States. U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar relayed this message to Trump administration officials on January 3, telling his own chief-of-staff, “This is a very big deal.”

Moreover, throughout January, the U.S. intelligence community warned about the threat of a global pandemic in the president’s daily briefings. One official said of the situation, “Trump may not have been expecting this, but a lot of other people in the government were — they just couldn’t get him to do anything about it. … The system was blinking red.” Instead, Trump seemed to be taking his cues from China and President Xi Jinping. The president appeared to dismiss intelligence reports because of “his relationship with China’s President Xi Jinping, whom Trump believed was providing him with reliable information about how the virus was spreading in China.” It was also recently reported that American officials were embedded in the World Health Organization in January who “transmitted real-time information” about the coronavirus spread in China.

Early warnings from U.S. officials in January were also dismissed by Trump’s economic advisers in fear of angering Beijing; they “worried a tough approach toward China could scuttle a trade deal that was a pillar of Mr. Trump’s re-election campaign.” Early on, President Trump bowed to Chinese President Xi Jinping instead of taking action to protect his own country. Three weeks after the White House was warned of the coronavirus’s threat to the United States, President Trump praised China’s efforts in a tweet: “China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!” As The New York Times reported, “The virus at first took a back seat to a desire not to upset Beijing during trade talks, but later the impulse to score points against Beijing left the world’s two leading powers further divided as they confronted one of the first truly global threats of the 21st century.” Trump has now shifted his strategy, going all in on a “blame China” campaign, which many advisers see as a key approach to his reelection odds.

In another example of the administration’s careless response, Trump played seven rounds of golf and held four political rallies during the time between the CDC’s first warning and the day U.S. travel restrictions went into effect. The month between January 2, when the CDC warned the White House, and February 2, when the U.S. government started enforcing the travel ban, was a critical period for making preparations to mitigate a potential outbreak in the United States. On 11 of those days, Trump either played golf or traveled to a political rally.








So the coronavirus was already in the US when Trump called for the China travel ban. And...

Trump's travel ban had numerous loopholes that let the coronavirus into the US by countries other than China.



Also:

The majority of coronavirus cases in New York came from Europe, not China.

New research indicates that thecoronavirus began to circulate in the New York area by mid-February, weeks before the first confirmed case, and that travelers brought in the virus mainly from Europe, not Asia.

“The majority is clearly European,” said Harm van Bakel, a geneticist at Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, who co-wrote a study awaiting peer review.

A separate team at N.Y.U. Grossman School of Medicine came to strikingly similar conclusions, despite studying a different group of cases. Both teams analyzed genomes from coronaviruses taken from New Yorkers starting in mid-March.

The research revealed a previously hidden spread of the virus that might have been detected if aggressive testing programs had been put in place.

On Jan. 31, President Trump barred foreign nationals from entering the country if they had been in China during the prior two weeks.It would not be until late February that Italy would begin locking down towns and cities, and March 11 when Mr. Trump said he would block travelers from most European countries. But New Yorkers had already been traveling home with the virus.



rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 13, 2020 - 7:00pm



 kurtster wrote:

A real leader like your man for POTUS, Biden who called the China travel ban, which saved a whole shitload of lives, a racist, xenophobic act that was the most wrong headed thing that Trump could do and would do nothing to save lives. 

If Biden was POTUS back then, most likely 10 times as many would be dead due to unrestricted travel from China to this country.  Biden is Xi's bitch, bought and paid for with $1.2 billion dollars paid to Hunter.
 

Sorry Kurt.  I realize facts aren't often kind to you, so we'll keep this short.

January 27, in writing, Joe Biden:

"The possibility of a pandemic is a challenge Donald Trump is unqualified to handle as president. … The outbreak of a new coronavirus, which has already infected more than 2,700 people and killed over 80 in China, will get worse before it gets better. Cases have been confirmed in a dozen countries, with at least five in the United States. There will likely be more. … To be blunt, I am concerned that the Trump administration’s shortsighted policies have left us unprepared for a dangerous epidemic that will come sooner or later."

Our Leaders' response almost a month later...

Feb 24 - “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA”.  “We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart  Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”

You keep pointing at the China travel ban like Trump did something amazing.  The US airlines had announced their plans to stop flying to China.  The strain that killed the most Americans came from Europe, not Asia.  He should have stopped travel from Europe if he was going to protect people, but instead banned travel except from the UK....then the UK.  Real intellectual leadership there.

There are over 160,000 dead, and your boy is closing in on 100,000 of his own doing...TRUMP Death Clock

Wear a mask...don't wear a mask...it's simple stuff that he can't handle.  If he eliminates the USPS by November, things could work

You keep talking about Biden and China....Ivanka has more patents than Edison at this point, including for Voting Machines.   Maybe that's why Donnie hates mail-in ballots?

I honestly wish you were trolling...but I sadly think you believe the propaganda you type.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Aug 13, 2020 - 6:53pm



 islander wrote:


And this is before Ivankas trademarks were granted in China...



 

That’s totally different!  Because . . . Er. . . . Um . . .
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 13, 2020 - 6:50pm



 kurtster wrote:

A real leader like your man for POTUS, Biden who called the China travel ban, which saved a whole shitload of lives, a racist, xenophobic act that was the most wrong headed thing that Trump could do and would do nothing to save lives. 

If Biden was POTUS back then, most likely 10 times as many would be dead due to unrestricted travel from China to this country.  Biden is Xi's bitch, bought and paid for with $1.2 billion dollars paid to Hunter.




https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2018/02/13/trump-conflicts-of-interest-tenants-donald-business-organization-real-estate-assets-pay/#7aa8a61848f9





The largest American office of China's largest bank sits on the 20th floor of Trump Tower, six levels below the desk where Donald Trump built an empire and wrested a presidency. It's hard to get a glimpse inside. There do not appear to be any public photos of the office, the bank doesn't welcome visitors, and a man guards the elevators downstairs—one of the perks of forking over an estimated $2 million a year for the space.



And this is before Ivankas trademarks were granted in China...



kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 13, 2020 - 6:21pm

 rgio wrote:


 KarmaKarma wrote:
 
Not a retweet here....this is what our "leader" is busy doing. 

Let me guess...it's an allegory for the speed at which the virus has spread vs. how it would have spread with a leader?

 
A real leader like your man for POTUS, Biden who called the China travel ban, which saved a whole shitload of lives, a racist, xenophobic act that was the most wrong headed thing that Trump could do and would do nothing to save lives. 

If Biden was POTUS back then, most likely 10 times as many would be dead due to unrestricted travel from China to this country.  Biden is Xi's bitch, bought and paid for with $1.2 billion dollars paid to Hunter.
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 13, 2020 - 3:03pm

 haresfur wrote:


 miamizsun wrote:


here let me clean that up a bit

broadly speaking american voters are left, right and center/indy

about 1/3 each (from pew research about a year or so ago)


if one of the two major parties want to win they need the middle/moderate/centrist vote

cow-towing to silly extremes (either right of left) won't do it for now

dems are making the best of a bad situation

imho if they wanted the best chance to win, they should have had a booker/klobuchar ticket (which i've railed about before)

regards
 
The problem is in saying people who are solidly democrat are extremist, particularly using rather incendiary labels. I mean Kennedy, LBJ, Carter, Clinton, Obama, were pretty solid democrats but hardly Maoists. I maintain that the "establishment" democrats are what used to be called moderate republicans. I believe this is particularly true of Biden and Hillary before him.

Conflating the centre of the left-right continuum with independence is a mistake IMO. Remember Bernie is an independent. Actually there are two types of independent: 1) those whose politics don't align with either of the major parties, and 2) people whose politics sometimes align with one, sometime with the other *and* actually change their votes, based on the issues of the day. So some independents are going to vote democrat when push comes to shove, some will vote republican, some will vote 3rd party no matter what, and some will mix it up. There are also some democrats and republicans who won't vote for their party's candidate in some cases. I have conservative american friends who will not be voting for trump.

But what do you consider a bad situation that dems are trying to make the best of?
 

when i said that i was referring to the people/voters (not the politicians) left of bernie

have a look at the chart, they gray area in the middle, out of all the women on biden's short list, harris probably has more appeal to those voters

going after those voters? i tthink booker would have been a better choice than biden for the top of the ticket and klobuchar as the vp

but the dem powers that be have delivered joe

so now we have biden (and harris)
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 13, 2020 - 6:23am



 KarmaKarma wrote:

 
Not a retweet here....this is what our "leader" is busy doing. 

Let me guess...it's an allegory for the speed at which the virus has spread vs. how it would have spread with a leader?

KarmaKarma

KarmaKarma Avatar



Posted: Aug 13, 2020 - 5:50am


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 8:58pm

 R_P wrote:


 
So how is your search for a new avatar going for when Biden wins ?
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 7:31pm



 miamizsun wrote:


here let me clean that up a bit

broadly speaking american voters are left, right and center/indy

about 1/3 each (from pew research about a year or so ago)


if one of the two major parties want to win they need the middle/moderate/centrist vote

cow-towing to silly extremes (either right of left) won't do it for now

dems are making the best of a bad situation

imho if they wanted the best chance to win, they should have had a booker/klobuchar ticket (which i've railed about before)

regards
 
The problem is in saying people who are solidly democrat are extremist, particularly using rather incendiary labels. I mean Kennedy, LBJ, Carter, Clinton, Obama, were pretty solid democrats but hardly Maoists. I maintain that the "establishment" democrats are what used to be called moderate republicans. I believe this is particularly true of Biden and Hillary before him.

Conflating the centre of the left-right continuum with independence is a mistake IMO. Remember Bernie is an independent. Actually there are two types of independent: 1) those whose politics don't align with either of the major parties, and 2) people whose politics sometimes align with one, sometime with the other *and* actually change their votes, based on the issues of the day. So some independents are going to vote democrat when push comes to shove, some will vote republican, some will vote 3rd party no matter what, and some will mix it up. There are also some democrats and republicans who won't vote for their party's candidate in some cases. I have conservative american friends who will not be voting for trump.

But what do you consider a bad situation that dems are trying to make the best of?
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 6:26pm



 oldviolin wrote:

everyone knows...

 

sez youse
oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 6:23pm



 miamizsun wrote:


if the sail fits...
 
everyone knows...

miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 6:18pm

 oldviolin wrote:
Who you calling windy...
 

if the sail fits...
oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 6:17pm



 miamizsun wrote:


here let me clean that up a bit

broadly speaking american voters are left, right and center/indy

about 1/3 each (from pew research about a year or so ago)


if one of the two major parties want to win they need the middle/moderate/centrist vote

cow-towing to silly extremes (either right of left) won't do it for now

dems are making the best of a bad situation

imho if they wanted the best chance to win, they should have had a booker/klobuchar ticket (which i've railed about before)

regards
 
Who you calling windy...

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 6:12pm

 haresfur wrote:
  
 

here let me clean that up a bit

broadly speaking american voters are left, right and center/indy

about 1/3 each (from pew research about a year or so ago)


if one of the two major parties want to win they need the middle/moderate/centrist vote

cow-towing to silly extremes (either right of left) won't do it for now

dems are making the best of a bad situation

imho if they wanted the best chance to win, they should have had a booker/klobuchar ticket (which i've railed about before)

regards
BlueHeronDruid

BlueHeronDruid Avatar

Location: planting flowers


Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 3:36pm



 R_P wrote:
 KarmaKarma wrote:
How very progressive!

Except that ... their progressive base white-hot hates her!  Good job Biden's handlers!

Concern trolls have concerns...
 

Trolls can read non-existent minds!
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 3:31pm

 KarmaKarma wrote:
How very progressive!

Except that ... their progressive base white-hot hates her!  Good job Biden's handlers!

Concern trolls have concerns...
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 12, 2020 - 3:08pm



 miamizsun wrote:


i'm not a fan but it was never meant to appeal to maoist faction of the party

they're wisely exercising damage control by aiming for the creamy nougat center middle/centrist voters

i think it's a very smart move by his cabal the dem machine
 

  
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